SGOTM 12 - Spooks

[WackenOpenAir]

we could use a forest there. It allows micromanaging with the city on food deficit. Who knows what it might be good for in the future.
Edit: Oh uh that shouldn't be on ivory of course

 

[Abegweit]

In the world map part of civassist, if you R click on a tile and tick Shield Forests (or Ctl+E) it will show light red shading on tiles that either have a forest that can be chopped to give shields or that you can plant and chop a forest on to get shields

Thanks. I never knew about this feature.

 

[Andronicus]

When did gunpowder spread? Why doesn't X-Man know it?
...
Hammu offers 18gpt on top of it for Theo

Noticed that Hammi will actually give 22gpt + guns + 48g for Theology
- must be making top of the range wines

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I made a list with city distances.
Red are the towns we have planned to capture and use.

Every unit we capture will add 1 to the rank corruption of each city we have lower on the list. I think this increases curruption in that town by 2%-3%.

I estimate the cost of adding a city closer than our whole second core except Paris to cost us about 5 science total.
I estimate the cost of adding a city closer than Paris to cost us about 5 science for Paris.

Bleu are cities that could be added to this core. They would be less than half corrupt and have proper commerce opportunities. They would provide more than the 10 they cost us in our second core.

Copan, Rome and Edrine should certainly be avioded.

Between Bombay and Trontheim on the list, we should only take some of the better scientist farms that provide more than 3 scientists. Capturing these will do very little for our us. Only after we have almost 10 of them, the corruption in our second core will be so bad that conquering more wont hurt us.

The last 6 towns on the list can be captured without hurting other research.

Edit: oh i made this with CA2. Pink1 and Pink2 may not be very meaningfull since all borders are pink. It is the easternmost civ in the greek island.

 

[Abegweit]

I estimate the cost of adding a city closer than Paris to cost us about 5 science for Paris.

Corruption in Paris will reach a cap. As I recall it's 90% (10% for any city + 70% for the FP plus 10% for a court). In any case it will cap and we will almost certainly reach the cap. So I think it's unfair to penalise any particular conquest for pushing Paris closer to that point.

Copan, Rome and Edrine should certainly be avioded.

I would like to see Rome before making that decision. You are probably right though.

Nice list, BTW! Very informative.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Yes, Paris will reach a cap already after a few towns. The rest of our second core will reach a point where it doesnt matter after like 10 towns. This is the point where the second core towns are so corrupt that they become farms also.

 

[killercane]

Note that we will have to gift Delhi to someone before we complete Copernicus as we would get a golden age otherwise. We cannot forget to do this! So no uni in Delhi.

 

[Abegweit]

Note that we will have to gift Delhi to someone before we complete Copernicus as we would get a golden age otherwise. We cannot forget to do this! So no uni in Delhi.

That's a b!tch! Good call! So nothing in Delhi, actually. Just pump out the workers.

Are you playing? The plan seems pretty much down pat.

Market in Const (fire the scientist)
Merge some workers.
Build unis in most places (court in Thebes)
Kill Joan.
Move on against Vikes.

Anything else?

I am against gifting the AI up but it doesn't make much difference and I'm quite sure you'll do it.

Edit: this wonder issue is well worth talking about. Newton's will also fire off our GA. Do we want to delay it until the next age?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Assuming we can trade all the early techs in AI again and maybe get medicine free, else research it right away, we will be able to have hospitals soon after we research the last MA tech.

It would be nice if we use prebuilds for these hospitals and have workers to join up to 21 in our best cities.

Newtons should also be build only when we have those cities at size 21 if we can manage this. That way we will optimise our GA. We will do 4 turn research in early IA and production boost can be used to prebuild Hoover and ToE.

We have to research 7 more MA techs. I think that will take roughly 50 turns. Our goals for that time are the following:
-Devolop our first core and Paris.
-Use the rest of our second core only temporarilly. Build units, not universities there.
-Conquer scientist farms, starting with the better ones. These are needed before this time for unit support.
-Use that unit support to produce many workers. If we have the support for them, we may want like 50 workers or so. Our capital can produce most of these. I know i am gonna get protests, but you can expect me to start advocating new worker production pretty soon again.

 

[Andronicus]

Note that we will have to gift Delhi to someone before we complete Copernicus as we would get a golden age otherwise. We cannot forget to do this! So no uni in Delhi.

Good pick up, but wait, theres more...

Not only does Delhi's MoM cover both scientific and seafaring wonder requirements for GA, so too does GLib and Collossus in Paris

Therefore whenever we build any wonder we will start a GA.

 

[Abegweit]

Good pick up, but wait, theres more...

Not only does Delhi's MoM cover both scientific and seafaring wonder requirements for GA, so too does GLib and Collossus in Paris

Therefore whenever we build any wonder we will start a GA.

Nasty. Makes me even more determined to leave the AI in the dust research-wise. Do you suppose there's any chance we could get to hospitals before the AI gets Cops?

I know i am gonna get protests, but you can expect me to start advocating new worker production pretty soon again.

You won't get them from me....
__________________

 

[WackenOpenAir]

Cost of early golden age:

assuming about 50 less citizens (core and paris) providing 40 exta uncorrupted commerce in GA. 80 science after universities. Times 20 turns, we miss out on about 1600 science.

That is probably not enough to advocate one of the 2 solutions to delay our golden age that i can think of:
-not building copes at all unless we are sure the AI won't build it before we want it 50 turns from now. (As abe sais, any chance?)
-Building copes in const and gifting paris and Delhi for a turn when we do so.

I think KC is building Uni and Lib first in Paris anyway, so we can still see if we can delay copes until later. I hope he isn't gonna give anyone Astro. It may then be possible.

 

[Abegweit]

I think KC is building Uni and Lib first in Paris anyway, so we can still see if we can delay copes until later. I hope he isn't gonna give anyone Astro. It may then be possible.

The real question in my mind is whether we should give up our monopoly on Theology ATM. We have lots of money. I wouldn't do it. Guns will be available later.

 

[Andronicus]

I'm not sure how the numbers stack up, but another alternative is to do as Abegweit queries above
1) research out of MA (ASAP est 50 turns) - keeping education and hence astronomy away from AI
2) get AI freebies (hopefully incl medicine)
3) research sanitation with pre prepared prebuilds for hospitals and worker adds
4) build Cop in Paris -> GA, immed build Newtons during GA

Miss out on maybe 25 turns of Cop (? worth 500 beakers approx edit 1000)
Miss out on maybe 15 turns Newtons (? worth 300 beakers approx edit 600)
edit, both wonders double science, not increase it by 50% (I think that's from playing Civ4), so we actually miss out on double the above number of beakers making it pretty much lineball

Gain extra beakers from GA with full population - if thats 1600 beakers we may be better of delaying Cop and Newton builds (edit - need more precise figures to tell if there is any sig difference)

 

[WackenOpenAir]

We have no monopoly on Theo. I sold it already.

Anyway. At this moment we can discuss, but KC is playing. He agreed not to gift Astro around, and i assume he is also holding back on Education.

For now, i think we'll just await this turnset. After KC's turnset, we should take some time to make a proper planning for the remainder of the MA. Plan a good golden age and a transition from size 12 to size 21 towns. This may be reasonably complicated.

 

[Abegweit]

Ottos and French (damn! she's good!) know Theo.

 

[killercane]

Paris is finally ours. Had some problems with Orleans but it is good to go. We are at 320 beakers per turn with 10% lux.

Spoiler :

Preturn

Stop forestry at Teno, add in the worker there, we are at happy limit

here. We are paying 18 gpt in support costs.

Trade guns from Babylon for theology the deal above (w/ 22 gpt and

change from Hammurabi). We have salt by Osaka.

Add in some workers to Osaka until we starve. Harbor is done next

turn.

We need workers for the IA. Delhi is good to have on this duty in this

respect. We can also switch tiles there, and now we have astro in 7.

Hopefully we can get it in 6.

Declare on Dutch. Ally Babylon for ivory.

Embassy w/ Sumers. I dont know where their troops are, weird. Dont

think we can start a war here.

Embassy w/ Mongols, no SS. They kind of suck. Ally them against

Hittites.

Stupid Greece and Russia are at war. This needs to change. I dont

think we can do much about it though since war will possibly cut trade

routes.

Market in Const is due in 3 turns. Move curragh out of French waters.

Interturn

Start Persia in on Hittites since they came to us.

Orleans flips.

Turn 1

Move troops to take back Orleans and land 2 more for insurance. Maybe

we can get another leader here.

Everyone is content and builds are in order. We need more workers.

The one produced at Delhi is foresting a spice.

Turn 2

Take back Orleans with no losses. Land on Paris. One AC is killed by

a French LB on the interturn.

Turn 3

Attack with some ACs and MDI. Paris has too many spears, 6 or 7 units total probably since they have a few LBs. One LB killed a Zerk as well. I will wait one turn for the 2 Berzerks to attack, and the additional units from Orleans to get in place.

Turn up science and hire a scientist in Teno. Market is done in

Constantinople.

Turn 4

We leave naught but 2 LBs in Paris. They had a lot of units but we did

not have good RNG either. Vikings take it on the interturn. French

destroyed.

The Dutch are surprising in their attacks. They launched a total of 6

horses towards memphis jungle, where a bab chariot and the 2 MDI are.

Persia killed one, and we retreat 2 more. We then lose an MDI on

counterattack. They should die soon.

Turn 5

We turn up science. Declare on Vikings and take them out (a spear and

a zerk); we lose an AC however on the spear. Kill another zerk, and

bombard 2 galleys and cover with the curragh. Build FP there. We have

very few units now (8). Viking war will be dicy but we have the

dromons and astro in next turn after squeezing every last beaker to get

265 beakers with 260 remaining on astro.

Turn 6

Kill another Zerk. FP completes. Paris can make 1 turn warriors so it

will to replace our losses. We have to keep one dromon by Paris to

ping Viking galleys. Teh others go to launch against Trondheim in the

North.

Turn 7

Memphis flips to Persia. This is not too bad, it sucks as a town

anyway. Const is on dromons now.

Paris produces a warrior.

Sign America up against the Vikings for Monotheism. They have salt by

Washington

Turn 8

Add in the rest of the workers. Paris->Warrior to Warrior

On the interturn Vikes move 3 galleys out. One will reach Paris if

they kill the curragh.

We lose our spices from Ottomans I think.

Hittites land by Orleans on the interturn, a 3 Man chariot and a sword.

Turn 9

AC is sent up to Orleans. Yes this is an unfortunate byproduct of this

war, you dont have to tell me. But them sailing all the way around

mongols to get to us is hard to foresee. We kill the 3 man with no

damage .

We get happiness back at Paris somehow (whip unhappies i suppose).

On the interturn the sword kills the MDI and takes Orleans.

Turn 10

We retake Orleans with the AC after a dromon bombard.

Paris produces a regular warrior rather than a vet.

I accidently hit enter so we are on Turn 11 (no moves yet).

Russia completes Knights Templar.

We lose dyes on the interturn.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

loads of things to discuss, but i have to go sleep now. I will be spamming again tomorrow
At least our core and our research look good now.

 

[Paul#42]

Turn 1
Move troops to take back Orleans and land 2 more for insurance. Maybe we can get another leader here.

We won't get another leader while we have one.

Turn 9
AC is sent up to Orleans. Yes this is an unfortunate byproduct of this war, you dont have to tell me. But them sailing all the way around mongols to get to us is hard to foresee.

We might want to place a couple of dromons there as both a guard and recon. As well as S of Paris.

Okay, Paris is ours, we have some wars going - don't lose the overview on troop movements. We'd rather place a dromon here and there at key points to monitor enemy galleys

We should now take some time to think about core improvement beyond sanitation and GA.

It might be very well the best to get Const back to size 6 for another worker session...
Last time we needed ~6 workers per town this time we need ~8 - for even more towns. We should expand Wacken's table by research capacity / corruption to get a priority list for worker stuffing.

Paris might also build workers (1-turn-worker-factory if we irrigate two wools?).
We should of course buy any available worker we can get.
With the wars we ignited we should get some offers on Persian continent soon.

I doubt that any AI will manage to build Cope's before we do it in IA.

edit: I got it, start playing, can't wait any longer











(quite shocked anybody? Just joking)

 

[Paul#42]

I would like to see Rome before making that decision. You are probably right though.

I would avoid Rome for different reasons - at least till we got tanks

Ottos and French (damn! she's good!) know Theo.

If she knew Osman (and us) - than her TGL was damn good...