SGOTM 12 - Spooks

[WackenOpenAir]

We could try a compromis if you like. We could start the GA, first make 10 MDI, then 10 workers during the GA.

We could skim a worker from Teoiti and once more in 20 turns when the foodbox fills again.
If we get a food surplus in Osaka and Kyoto, we can skim one there in 20 turns as well.
Finally, Bombay and Delhi could probably make a one now and then as they grow so fast.

We should definately have Portugal as i primary target. With 10 MDI from the capital, we probably can split our forces in 2 groups 10 turns from now. One group with units produced in the core to conquer Portugal, and one group with units upgraded in France to start with the Arabs.

BTW, didn't i say i'd get protests when i start about the workers again ?

 

[WackenOpenAir]

some pages back i had a list of expected units without golden age. Now i add in the early golden age. I also change the list in 1 list for Paris and one for the core.
The core list only includes 1 Dromon. This Dromon and the curragh can be upgraded to caravel. Also, a few of the build could be changed from MDI to caravel.

I first made this list with 10 MDI from the core. However, with the early GA and units from other core towns, we would have way too many. Maybe even 7 from the capital is quite lot. With 7 MDI from the core, we have enough to have 2 invasion forces, both capable of taking some losses. Even if you swich 3 MDI to Caravels, both forces will be 26 units. Those from the core should be able to take Spain and Portugal while the ones from Paris take the southern continent. I would like to ask you not to make more than 7 MDI. If you think fewer is enough to take Portugal and Spain, i would strongly appreciate that. (maybe even just 5 MDI from constantinopel before workers?)

Looks like the core units can sail out to portugal around turn 7.

Constantinople
MDI(1), MDI(2), .... Worker(8), worker(9).....

Tenochtitlan
14spt, 24 in GA.
MDI(2), MDI(4), MDI(6), MDI(8), MDI(10), MDI(12), Marketplace(17), courthouse(21), Hospital(33)

Teotihuacan
7spt, 12 in GA.
University(2), Worker(3), Dromon(6), market(15), Hospital(33)

Osaka
10spt, 15 in GA.
University(1), MDI(4), MDI(7), MDI(10), MDI(13), Marketplace(20), Hospital(36)

Kyoto
13spt, 20 in GA.
MDI(2), MDI(4), MDI(6), MDI(8), MDI(10), Market(15) Courthouse(19), Harbor(21), Hospital(34)

Thebes
7spt, 14 in GA.
University(5), worker(6), MDI(9), MDI(12), worker(13), MDI(16), Hospital(32)
*Hospital needs a little help from mining or forest cutting.

Delhi
Production unclear.
market(65s), University(100s), Courthouse(80s), Hospital(160s)
That is 400 shields total. We need to try and make 400 shields here in 32 turns.
golden age and some workers for mining should do. No time for other things though.

Bombay
8spt, 12 in GA.
University(4), Worker(5), MDI(9), MDI(13), worker(14), worker(15), Hospital(33)
Use mined BG when ready, no more mining needed.

Paris
harbor(2), Libray(4), University(8), Courthouse(11), Copernicus(21), Newtown(31), Hospital(36)

Orleans
This town should stay below size 6 for the comming while and alternatingly produce workers and warriors every turn after growing to a size that sustains 5fpt.


Core Units
T1: C_MDI (1)
T2: C_MDI, T_MDI, K_MDI (4)
T3: C_MDI (5)
T4: C_MDI, T_MDI, O_MDI, K_MDI (9)
T5: C_MDI, K_AC, To_Drom (11)
T6: C_MDI, T_MDI, K_MDI (14)
T7: C_MDI, O_MDI (16)
T8: T_MDI, K_MDI(18)
T9: B_MDI, Th_MDI (20)
T10: K_AC, T_MDI, O_MDI, K_MDI (24)
T12: T_MDI, Th_MDI (26)
T13: O_MDI, B_MDI (28)
T16: Th_MDI (29)


Paris units
17 units present (17)
T6: P_MDI (18)
T9: P_MDI (19)
T12: P_MDI (20)
T15: P_MDI (21)
T17: P_MDI (22)
T19: P_MDI (23)
T21: P_MDI (24)
T23: P_MDI (25)
T25: P_MDI (26)

 

[WackenOpenAir]

That is 40 extra units we are gonna produce.

If we take 10 cities with those and lose 20 units doing so, we effectively gain 30 unit support.
That is almost enough for the workers we will build. (25 from capital, 10 from Orleans, 5 from India)

 

[Andronicus]

Hmmm, my feeling is this might be too few workers, what about Bombay doing granary instead of uni, then workers to size 6, then 2 turn workers.
To get sufficient workers we have to sacrifice somewhere, guess I'd prefer not one of our top science cities. Constantinople I understand the logic of since it can do 1 turn workers, but I think we need both Orleans and Bombay contributing to give us enough workers to add in when sanitation comes in (approx 30 turns) and to railroad. Hopefully we would get enough workers by Sanitation to quickly get most of Con, Japtec, Thebes, Delhi and Paris to work all avail tiles - thats about 68 workers if these are all size 12 to start with (there are some overlaps so wont all need to go to size 21).

edit
obviously we are not going to get 68 workers plus others for railing by 30 turns from now even with Con 1 turn WF and 2 other 2 turners. There needs to be some rationing with priority going to Paris first to get it up to working all tiles ASAP, then the core around Con.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

A granary etc to build 2 turn workers there will make much more expensive workers than those made in our capital.

Orleans is producing workers already in this plan.

To have more workers, we should simply use the conquered high food area's both with forest cuts and simply by making 10 turn workers. If we conquer 10 cities, that is also 1 worker per turn just by using the 1 uncorrupted shield for workers. (While the city will still be growing rapidly with its irrigation) Also should we look for every opportunity to skim cheap workers in size 12 cities. We best do that by first filling the box and then making the worker so that the town wont be size 11 for long.

And please believe me now, const has to make workers. Yes during a golden age. Yes it is too bad that it doesn't use 40 spt. Still, it needs to make those damn workers !

The workers produced in orleans can do the improvement work for Paris as well as joining into Paris when it has it's hospital.

The workers produced in the Core and India can first work in Portugal and spain to make more slaves, then irrigate some of our core around the time the hospitals are gonna finish.


What do you guys want now ?
One is crying that we are wasting const by making workers, the other is crying that we will have too few workers
I think the last plan i posted is a pretty good middle road. It provides enough forces to split them into 2 groups and still almost all the workers planned.

 

[Abegweit]

Looks pretty good to me. With Teno and Kyoto doing two-turn MDIs, the capital can be turned over to worker production.

If we fire off GA this turn, the most efficient production order in Paris is:
Lib(2), Court(5), Harbour(6), Uni(9), Cops(19), Newton(33), Hospital(39)

Saves a turn off both the harbour and the uni. I think you underestimated Newton and the Hospital, although additional mining could have a turn or two. Mining the hill and three plains would save a turn off the hospital and probably another off Newt's. Unfortunately, we really want everything irrigated.

 

[killercane]

Yes middle road plan might well my tears up. However, we need some ships to fit into the build order if we start a second invasion force.

Should we start gifting 10 gold here and there to Celts/Germans/Zulu and take it back with selling them a tech? We can do this every 20 turns or so until the end.

With enough forestry operations we can improve these build times as well (more workers/extra shields for improvements).

So attack order for battle group one is Vikes-Spain-Portugal? Battle group 2 down to southern island, arabs or someone? When we land on Spain or Arabs it would have been nice to have a cover unit but muskets are too darn expensive.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I think we want everything irrigated in Paris only when the hospital is being finished. We can keep it's production in tact until then. Same for our other core cities.

We need some ships, bot not many. We have ships around France to bring those units to the southern island.

The core units need to be brought to Portugal. This is just a short trip. 4 Caravels will certainly be plenty. I have included one dromon in my build order (specifically a dromon because of the 30 shields) this one can be upgraded as well as the curragh near Const. Then 2 of the MDI in the production list can be Caravels instead. That leaves 4 caravels and 27 units.

The diplomacy is not my department. As far as i understand, the gifting thing is a permanent bonus and 100g is the maximum you can benefit from. It should not matter when during the game you gift these 100g (or techs worth 100g)

I don't think we should use the forest opperations for build times. Rather use the workers we have to make slaves by forest cutting and irrigation. (breeding more workers) It's all about growing population now.

Can we maybe make spears/pikes anywhere and upgrade those ? Or is everything connected to salts already ?

I had in mind for the Paris force to go Vikings - Southern Island
and the Core forces: Portugal - Spain
Be the time we get that far, we can see where to go next. If you think we can make a better plan, that is of course good. I like having Portugal pretty early though. It is a good place for our workers to start breeding.

We have 2 towns making MDI in 2, and one making MDI in 3. The golden age will provide more shields than needed for this. Try to let the towns grow extra food while making these uits so that they may be able to skim a worker.

 

[Andronicus]

Yes your plan is middle of the road and I agree the best compromise. (so no tears here either)
My comment about insufficient workers was to point out that no matter what we do - Con on immed 1 turn workers and both Bombay abd Orleans 2 turners ASAP, we would still have insufficient workers to fully merge to our core and do the required railing and irrigating.
I have thought about it some more and have come up with this thought for prioritising where the workers we have avail to merge should go
Working out how much science per turn the extra pop provides shows that adding to Paris up to pop 21 is far greater benefit than any other city (approx 11 science per turn from coastal tile and 7 per turn from non-wool land tiles) due to the collosus and the science multipliers it will have
Elsewhere coastal tiles give 4 science per turn in Con, diminishing as corruption increases whilst non bonus land tiles give only max 2 science per turn and workers are better employed railing and irrigating to support more specialists or else chopping more workers.
On this basis we would require
9 workers for Paris
10 workers for Con (as starting from size 6)
3 for Teo
4 for Osaka
5 for Teno
5 for Kyoto
4 for Delhi
5 for Thebes
approx 40 with some of the lower ones giving marginal benefit over using for other tasks. Probably 30 to merge would be a good aim.

 

[Andronicus]

What are our Viking plans?
I note 2 dromons near Karakorum with 2AC and 2MDI
Paris has 5MDI and a sword
Orleans an MDI and sword
we cannot upgrade the 6 warriors till Paris builds its harbour (could be built in 1 turn if we sacrifice a MDI - or 2 warriors if we go immed GA but this option appears unpopular)
Vikes are weak, Americans average and Bergan is only size 6 (but on hill) - we may have Americans in Boston before us
Quickest route for our Paris troops to reach Bergan is 2 steps west (turn 0 and 1) then board a dromon Turn 2) to be dropped off turn 3 and attack turn 4. I doubt Vikes will have the troops to send any more towards Paris.

 

[Paul#42]

Too bad I had different plans this weekend and I'm too exhausted to play right now.
I plan to play tomorrow and I think that delay is okay, given the need to plan things thoroughly after we cruised through the last three sets in quite a hurry.

I sense a consense to start the GA immediately.
I agree Paris concentrates on buildings, Orleans on workers.
I also see a consense to build workers in Const after doing some (5-7) MDI (sort of compromise Wacken offered to cool down the opposition ).

I'd like to add another option: For every 4 slaves we buy or take in Portugal we may build another MDI in Const

So I will dow Portugal, bribe Spain.
Pillage Viking Iron.
Keep the lonely Paris-worker. Get him company.
Get all gpt, workers and luxes I can. But keep Edu and Astro our secrets.

I'll start tomorrow evening.

 

[Andronicus]

Re gifting gold to improve relations
Not sure I recall the exact effect, but I recall that the benefit to relations wears off after 20 turns. I think the more you gift up to a max (? 200g rings a bell) the better the relations
The only reason I can see for gifting now would be to discourage them dowing
I wonder whether gifting our resources (esp once we have all that wool to trade) would provide a better ongoing gift for improved relations? If the extra resources helps the AI to bring in more money to pay us for techs we get an added bonus. Gifting a tech every 20 turns to the backwards AI will only give them 5 max outdated techs? Zulu, Romans and Celts are still in AA. If we gift them 200g first then sell tech for 200g I think we may get the max relationship bonus

 

[Andronicus]

Pillage Viking Iron.

Why?
Vikes are weak. Why not just land on the iron mountain and take Trondheim?

Keep the lonely Paris-worker. Get him company.

Agree
I suggest the dozing slaves near Osaka should go to Paris on the next boat. Paris needs worker improvements far ahead of anywhere else.

 

[Abegweit]

But keep Edu and Astro our secrets.

No reason to do this if we are going to fire off our GA immed, and Persia is offering a very good deal on Ed. In fact, if we gift them up we might just get a tech.

Re gifting gold to improve relations
Not sure I recall the exact effect, but I recall that the benefit to relations wears off after 20 turns. I think the more you gift up to a max (? 200g rings a bell) the better the relations.

I remember the part about wearing off after 20 turns as well. But I believe, like Wacken, that the max is 100g.

 

[WackenOpenAir]

I think we should take the gpt for Edu.

I'd land the units on the mountain next to Trontheim.

We'll get those votes when we need em, no worries now.

 

[Andronicus]

Had a thought for a strategy to get Sparta and Athens without dowing nor eliminating Greeks

I note Greeks and Russians currently at war
If we dow several others on continent (? Iroquois and Arabs) and ally in Greeks (whilst remaining neutral in Russian - Greek war), this could be suicide for Greeks
If we gift a city to Greeks that is of little use (eg P'yongyang or a Viking city), we could then relieve the new owners of Sparta and Athens keeping them for ourselves.
Downsides include
1) Russia may capture Athens or Sparta (they might anyway, but perhaps we could ally Russians against the rest in that situation)
2) risk of landings from Iroquois or Arabs affecting Paris in particular - req protecting dromon(s) - one reason I havnt suggested allying Carthaginians as well
3) need to eliminate AIs we dow on before end game (again could ally Russians in this task - doesnt matter who gets the other crappy cities, although Arab cities probably more useful to us as dont affect corruption in second core)

End result we get the prime irrigable land, keep all the scientifics and they remain friendly

 

[Abegweit]

I think we should take the gpt for Edu.

Off topic, but I'm intrigued by this difference. In English, the abbreviation is 'Ed' (Physical Education -> Phys Ed; vowels at the end of words do not make proper English abbreviations). As a Canadian, the only other language I speak is French. I know that French Canadians also say 'Ed' while Francians throw in the final vowel. Not sure what the implications are but apparently the Dutch and the Germans agree with the Francians. Interesting.

 

[Abegweit]

Double post. Deleted.

 

[msch]

Off topic, but I'm intrigued by this difference. In English, the abbreviation is 'Ed' (Physical Education -> Phys Ed; vowels at the end of words do not make proper English abbreviations). As a Canadian, the only other language I speak is French. I know that French Canadians also say 'Ed' while Francians throw in the final vowel. Not sure what the implications are but apparently the Dutch and the Germans agree with the Francians. Interesting.

IMO, EDU is not an abbreviation but an Internet Domain name.
Kind of a common nick.
Like Edie for Edward or Edgar or Edmond etc.

 

[Andronicus]

Can we maybe make spears/pikes anywhere and upgrade those ? Or is everything connected to salts already ?

Orleans could make a spear or 2 whilst growing for upgrading once Paris has its harbour

Just noticed Orleans cannot be a 2 turn worker-warrior factory until after expansion. It can build 2 turn workers with 3 wool giving +5fpt, but wont get the 10 shields per turn (I think it will fall short even in GA)