SGOTM 12 - Team Zoe

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Sorry about the long post, this has been an active thread.

apologies to post so much, but I had some more ideas and points I would like us to think about:

1. FP
where do we build it? Delhi looks like a nice commerce rich place and it wouldn't take ages to build it there.

2. Wonders
I do think our capital should get off building military as soon as we ca afford that. It will produce AC's anyway. It should instead go for wonders that would boost its research capability. Copernicus and maybe Newton later.
The FP city could go for Smith later on.

3. IA slingshot
We discussed it for entering the MA, but wasn't feasible. However, I truly believe we can set up that slingshot for the IA. When we enter, we gift all sci Civ's into the IA and we should be able to trade for all 3 techs. Hopefully we do have some cash then and we can purposely add optional techs for trading. Since we would like to get Smiths anyway, the techs I guess we could add are economics, democracy (or at least PP), music theory and navigation. If we feel that would not be enough, Mil Trad could be added.
Would be great if that would work

Agreed on all accounts, but maybe Delhi is a bit too close from us while distant from its own mass - we'll have to see about this. And, by all means, keep posting

sanabas, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I didn't mean that we would research useless techs such as PP or music theory. But the AI might do that and we could certainly get it before entering the next age.

I agree we should only go for economics and maybe navigation ourselves

I personnally would go for democracy, Mil Trad and Economics by ourselves - the promise of new techs is good enough to give it a shot by me.

by the way, guys, check Team klarius, there are now clearly 1 city capture behind us as I can see their territory is 9 tiles less or am I wrong?

Anyone care to explain how they could have lost 3-4 tiles on the QSC mark?

Will a stack of 8 units be enough to take Dehli?

I was looking at Paris last night - there are like 5 wonders in there. I'd rather not let them be a research partner because they'll just keep putting up wonders and threaten for 20k, not to mention deny us the wonders we want. Right now I am skeptical that any AI is going to do us any good with the heavy gpt upkeep for units.

8 units with proper bombardment support will strongly weaken it but I doubt it can ram it through - not in a single turn, not without military alliance(s).

If not I would drop on the other side of the mountains and move in when the second group of units arrive - unless Smart claims it in time.

If eight is not enough then how many should I bring?

With the bikini and the MA, 8 can be enough - heck I practically got the aztecs with 5 and they started with archers, india didn't. But it will go much faster if we are a wee bit patient about it and not throw everything in harm's way at the first more or less successful bombard run. I'd send 6 AC's 2 catas and if the first bombard run is not clearly mint, ship in reinforcements.

If we can get a MGL it's one of the situations where it will be more useful rushing the FP instead of making an army.

Definitely, we should consider a MGL FP. Still, since Delhi is a big boy, I'd start on building a palace pre-build and worry about connecting ressources with Bombay when we get there. If we do get a MGL, Delhi can switch to something more useful.

I think eight attackers +4 Dromons should be enough. Since a few ships are behind I might try some variation of the bait action (bikini babe)

How bad is corruption actually going to be in Dehli? If we have a leader to rush maybe we should go a little farther away.

Bait away. As I just said, I think a more central location to this continent could prove better.

 

[zerksees]

8.800BC
move troops back slowly
it's good to let India fight a little first, before we take over
declare and ally Maya for CoL, they chip in 15 gold
Portugal agrees to MA straight up

We already have the alliances for a couple turns now - courtesy ThERat. And its been going on for a couple turns so hopefully the capital is being cleared out.
And India has horses so I'll have to keep the bait out of range.

 

[Whomp]

Sounds like a plan Berzerksees!

 

[Smart]

I'm here, just was away for a few days and couldn't play civ
Can I go after zerksees then?

 

[Whomp]

Hope all is well Smart.
I have no issue with you following Berzersees.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

You got yourself a deal

 

[zerksees]

I doubt anyone would be surprised by this:

 

[zerksees]

Pre-flight:
Change Rat Hole to market
Rush harbor in Kyoto costing 1 citizen

IBT
Indian dinky attacks our Dromon and gets fried crispy, starting our golden age! [1-0]
Kyoto: harbor -> worker
Zoo: med inf -> market

Turn 1 – 730 BC
Unload swords on Indian horses
Unload AC on grassland
MM The Zoo to 35 shields, market in 3

IBT
Nothing

Turn 2 – 710 BC
AC moved to hillside - spot 2 stacks of 10 javelin throwers headed toward Dehli following a short stack of about 3. Some spears are in the mix.
Two more AC land
Misc MM – put up some extra commerce in Kyoto

IBT
Kyoto: worker -> market

Turn 3 – 690 BC
More units landing. Chain shipping on Dromons has helped. Presently 2 AC, 1 cat, 3 sword and 1 MI are on Dehli’s door. Oh and 3 Dromons and 3 more AC are in range.
Cut zoo to 30 shields to bump up commerce, market still due in 1

IBT
Maya send 2 Javelin throwers and a horseman at Dehli. I think they got one unit. Big Maya stack of 12 JT are moved right outside Dehli. berzerksees loves a crowd to show off for
Zoo: market -> pike

Turn 4 – 670 BC
Assault on Dehli:
Cat misses
Dromon misses
Dromon hits and sinks redline dinky [2-0]
Dromon hits spear
AC defeats spear [3-0]
Elite sword defeat 2 hp spear [4-0]
Elite sword defeat 2 hp spear [5-0] and the city is ours. 1 free worker
Dehli is decked out with a barracks and a harbor so our fine citizens immediately enjoy fine Indian spices

I push forward – moving on Bombay

Load an AC and a pike on a dromon

IBT
Indians want their city back. Our AC redline defeats two horsemen, but we lose a redline sword. [7-1]
Mayans finish the wounded horseman, avenging our swords death.
Rome comes knocking for philo. Argh. I really want to kill them. But in the interest of naming my own terms I cave
Bears Den: pike -> market
Zoo: pike -> pike

Turn 5 – 650 BC
Pike and AC land in Dehli
Move the units into position on Bombay. There are about 9 spears standing right outside Bombay. Leave the redline AC in Dehli, moving the rest under the pike blocking the short route for Indian horses, and calling the Indian spear stack

IBT
Indian spears can’t resist the siren song of their old city and head south toward it. They are still outside Bombay, so berzerksees has a crowd again! – 9 spears, 1 archer and 1 warrior.
A couple Mayan and Indian units clash, but our pikeman is not touched and no horses come out.
Zoo: pike -> horse

Turn 6 - 630 BC
Bombay is inland so no help from Dromons, so our units go alone
AC defeat spear, reveal archer [8-1]
Med inf defeat spear [9-1]
AC retreat on spear
AC defeat spear [10-1]
AC defeat archer [11-1] Bombay is ours and the Indians are dead! Free worker is gained and 11 more Indian units go poof.

I pause here because I think there are far too many Mayan units in our territory to go after them. I think we should go after Portugal next, and sign in the Mayans with a ROP so those 20+ JT can go to work on Portugal. There are some assorted spears and warriors mixed in with the JTs

Thoughts?

(BTW just realized I can probably cut lux to 0% - need to investigate)

 

[Whomp]

Nice work Berzerksees!! I'd try to avoid a ROP with Maya but just let them cross our lands with a MA. Do you think it will take more than 20 turns to take out the Ports? Let them fight on our land if need be, generate slave opportunities (also the slow walk home) and leader farm.

 

[zerksees]

No way would it take 20 IMO. The Maya had a long walk so I think Portugal and India slogged it out, so Portugal must be more or less gassed. I want the ROP so those JT can get over there speedy quick. I see the dilemma though since if we take out Portugal quickly we'll have to wait on wrecking the Maya.

It is too late to continue tonight so I'll finish it up tomorrow night.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Well played harbor and barracks remained too? This is sweet

Now that all the mayan units are out, what are the odds the incans could take them out? If the incans send their units and grab a city only, it will be because they will have mutually annihilated on each other. If they take out both cities, no more javs to worry about. Last, if they just blow it up and lose to the mayans, they'll be easier to conquer for the ottomans. This feels like a win-win to me.

What are the standing ROP/MA/PT we can't break with the portos, mayans, incans and romans? This might be our window to go after Rome, but controlling this continent we're on and gifting a lump of it to the turks and koreans is a candy we should work hard for. Once we are done with Portugal, Egypt and Rome for our selfish purposes, I say we go give a full pedestrian support to the SCI civs around so that they can grab cities more efficiently. Or we could grab them ourselves and just gift them away to express our gratitude.

EDIT: what's up with Theodora being Baroness anyways? Wasn't it Empress?

EDIT2: geographically, it looks like it would be nice to FP Bombay then grab Lisbon and Rome around it. That would keep us busy for a little while. OTOH the 4 maya/inca cities are closer together. I'll get a good long look at the save to figure the FP out, once you're done, I guess

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Also, if the incas get broken one way or another, we can dial the turks so that they come and sweep it up.

 

[ThERat]

fantastic work so far

I'd say let's go after Mayan's, but in order to do that we should first declare on Inca and get Mayan's to join to burn their units.
Once Inca's are done, go after Mayan's and their hopefully plenty of slaves.

Then we can go after Portugal signing in Korea. Or we could start both wars at the same time so that we can take Portugal while Maya/Inca burn each other and then we enter the war once Portugal is gone.

Be careful people with Rome. Do they have iron? If they have iron, their UU and the fact that they have amassed units won't make that an easy ride. I don't want us to burn units and fall behind. (in case we doubt that, we can establish an embassy to get an idea what we are talking about here)

I am also not really in favor of gifting cities away right now. We need them for unit support and additional science. I think with courts the whole Mayan's continent can be fairly productive. Also, we do need resources and thus, be careful with gifting. I would wait with gifting until much later.

As for the FP, I still favor Delhi, because it has very high commerce due to river/spices.


ps: possible to upload the save so we can have a look? just curious

 

[Bucephalus]

Nice work, Zerks - you just can't get the hang of the love and peace thing, can you?

 

[eldar]

lurker's comment: Is that choke to the SSW of Delhi the only access to Mayan lands...? If so - get the Mayans to clear off home, sign ROP with them and park a stack of units on the choke. With that many units they may luck out and take out the Ports themselves, not really what you want. Or is it?

 

[zerksees]

Thanks for the input so far. It'll be another 10 hrs or so before I play again. Right now I am thinking MA Mayans against Portugal, then Inca. I have to look closely at the map, did not realize Portugal had other neighbors. If Korea is a neighbor by land, they can join us vs Portugal and finish them off quickly.

Beorn I'll double check but I think all our deals with Portugal and Maya are up since the war with India is over, so we are free to do as we please.

I want to bring up the pikes so these cities have a little defense. I'll probably have the Zoo crank out a few more horsemen so we can upgrade them to knights when the time comes. I can't get the Zoo up to 40 shields so medieval infantry seem like a waste atm.

eldar - we can block them without ROP as the one tile choke is outside city limits. If they take Portugal we can DOW on them before they are well reinforced. Taking non culture expanded cities should be faster.

edit:

EDIT: what's up with Theodora being Baroness anyways? Wasn't it Empress?

er... we're feudal. No empresses allowed. If we were communist she would probably be comradess. Too bad she could not have been titled "zookeeper"

 

[eldar]

lurker's comment: Looking at those city borders they look like 10-99 culture borders... so when they get to 100 they'll expand and take in the choke. Hence the ROP suggestion so the troops don't get a boot order. It may be worth blocking the choke anyway, right now with a single unit whilst they're still friends, later (when at war) with a few pikes & cats - maybe even build a fort? That way you at have a definitive number of units to deal with .

 

[Whomp]

OK a lot of different plans have been discussed so let's come to a consensus. I'm inclined to divide and conquer. Having Korea MA vs. Portugal and then giving Maya a little time to send back their units to fight the Incans (without a ROP because this is a about speed of conquering the contintent imo) and then MA with Maya against the Incans as we are finishing the Ports.

In the case of the Mayans they'll be doing our dirty work while we finish the Ports.

 

[ThERat]

whomp, I agree with your plan...we have to MA against Inca else Maya won't fight them. Give them a few turns to move their units back and then MA against Inca. Once Inca and Portugal are out, we take Maya's.

 

[Whomp]

Heh. Well it's more tagging onto your idea Rat but the big advantage is Maya at war on their borders gives them a bigger opportunity for enslavement, us controlling the choke and gassing their units versus a fight up in Portugal where they'd have major logisitical issue. Same with Korea keeping Portugal busy. The AI is a better short distance fighter.