SGOTM 12 - X-Nuts

[AVN]

Got it.
Because I expect that I need a lot of time to play my turnset, I will start playing tonight and continue Saturday and Sunday when I hope to finish it.

 

[leif erikson]

Take what time you need AVN. There is much to do and plan for this one.

But I think it will be a fun one as long as Joannie doesn't get too uppity or the RNG doesn't go south.

I'll make a couple of sacrifices at the RNG Altar in your name if you wish?

Best of Luck.

 

[civ_steve]

I should mention we're at war with ... Portugal and England I believe. I shut down production when we were a little in monetary crisis, but we may need to add some units just in case a few Cav or Knights are landed; our units are fairly spread out right now, except for the French region.

 

[AVN]

The save

Initial analysis :
We don't have enough troops to conquer Paris. We need especially much more artillery, but also cavalery. We have a lot of obsolete troops (mainly on the Persian continent), but unfortunately not the money to upgrade them.

We also lack production capacity to build better units to replace them. There isn't much what can be done about this (it's too late to start building more factories/coal plants, but there are some irrigated tiles, which can be mined).

With that in mind I start to play :

Turn 0 - 1400 AD

Sell monotheism to Zulu for 46 gold.
Sell ivory and gems to Russia for 8 gpt.
Sell gems to Arabs for 1 gpt + 7.
Sell ivory to Iroquois for 2 gpt.

Change Thebes, Tenochtitlan, Kyoto, Nineveh, Osaka, Rotterdam to artillery.
Change Amsterdam to cavalery
Sell lib and bank in Babylon (costs 2 in upkeep, but gives only 1 gpt at max).
Disband sleeping galleon in Persopolis
Put a number of taxmen back to work if that results in more money (in general that's the case in not too corrupt cities). Change a few other taxmen in scientists.

IBT :
Korea and France signed peace.
Carthage and France are active in signing all sorts of agreements with each other. (Trade embargo against us, MA against Hittites, MA against India).

England drops 4 horses next to Washington.

Tenochtitlan : Artillery -> Cav
Amsterdam : Artillery -> Wealth
Memphis : Uni -> Artillery
Pasargadae : Worker -> Worker

Turn 1 - 1405 AD

Near Washington :
Knights - English horses 1-0, 2-0, 3-0, 4-0

Near Paris :
Redline rifle with arty, and attack with a cav. The cav dies.
A 2nd cav is redlined too, before it kills the rifle.

Bergen is blocking the advance of our reinforcements and supports the rifles in the jungle and on the mountains, so we have to take it. Move troops in direction of Bergen.

Pillage horse tile so that France can't build fastmovers anymore (not that I should see them).

Science slider to 30%. Still scientific method in one.

Sell coal to India for 12 gpt + 25

IBT : Portugal declares on Spain.

We discover scienific method -> atomic theory (0%, we will get it for free with theory of evolution).

Change military academy in Constantinople for theory of evolution. (in 4)

Persopolis : uni -> artillery

Turn 2 - 1410 AD

Artillery and cannons bombard Bergen.
Infantry - Rifleman 1-0
Knight - Rifleman 2-0 and Bergen gets autorazed (didn't expect that, but we had to take that city anyway).

IBT : India wants to give 8 gpt for ivory and gems. We accept.
Carthage and France sign a MA against Spain.
Germany and Zulu end trade embargo against us.

Pasargadae : worker -> artillery
Rotterdam : artillery -> artillery

Turn 3 - 1415 AD
Near Paris :
Redline rifle and guerilla with artillery. Kill them with cavs.

Pillage roads around Washington which can be used by French rifles, guerillas which are hiding in the jungle/ mountains.

Pillage tiles around Paris, to slow down French fastmovers.

Disband a knight and rifle in Washington to get the barracks there next turn.

IBT : French drop 2 guerrilla and a rifle next to Washington.

Washington : barracks -> wealth
Kyoto cav -> cav

Turn 4 - 1420 AD
We buy furs + 1 gpt from Iroquois for gems and theory of gravity.

Near Washington :
After bombarding a cav and 2 knights kill the 3 French intruders.

Near Paris :
Cav kills guerilla. We move 3 cavs into French territory, but not into the stack on the hill (tile east of the fortress).

IBT : France sends 7 rifles and 2 guerrillas from Paris to the 3 seperated cavs.

Sumeria : ivory for 2 gpt
New York gets destroyed (probably by Germans). There are still 3/4 rifles, guerillas hiding in the jungle/mountains.

Constantinople :
Theory of evolution is completed . Atomic theory and electronics are discovered

Continue research with corporation at 100% in 10 turns.

Nineveh : artillery -> artillery

Turn 5 - 1425 AD
Near Paris :
After bombarding we attack the rifles and guerillas around Paris.
We kill them all (9 in total), but lose 2 cavs. Almost all other cavs are seriously wounded and have to heal outside French territory.

With appointing a few scientists we can get corporation in 9.

IBT : Guerrilla attacks an isolated cav, which has to retreat.
Paris sends one additional guerilla.

Trade embargo between France and Ottomans against us has ended.

Constantinople : cav -> cav
Tenochtitlan : cav -> cav

Turn 6 - 1430 AD

Near Paris : A cav and an inf kill the 2 guerillas.
We have some WW now.

Sell scientific method to Ottomans for 6 gpt and 15, because France had it already.

IBT : Everyone wants to renew their alliances against France. We refuse so that we can destroy France (if we want that, and if we are able to do that ...)

Sell Industrialism to India for 5 gpt + 23
Korea gives 3 gpt for wines.

England drops 2 horses next to Washington.

Constantinople : cav -> cav
Kyoto : cav -> cav

Turn 7 - 1435 AD
Bombard Paris. There are still 13 vet units with defense value 6.
We will need more artillery and cavs. With the current amount of troops an attack on Paris is impossible (or completely doomed).

Near Washington : 2 cavs kill the 2 English horsemen.

Zulu pay 3 gpt + 11 for Engineering.

IBT : Russia will still pay 2 gpt for the wines.
Scandinavia and Portugal sign a trade embargo against us.

Constantinople : cav -> cav
Memphis : art -> art
Osaka : art -> art

Turn 8 - 1440 AD
Sell theology to Zulu for 1 gpt + 6

IBT : Renew following deals :
India : 6 gpt for saltpeter
Sumeria : 10 gpt for gems

France drops guerilla next to Washington. Hittites attack with a knight, but the knight doesn't survive this fight.

Constantinople : cav -> cav
Tenochtitlan : cav -> cav

Turn 9 - 1445 AD
(I had to replay almost the whole turn due to a crash. Fortunately there was only one fight and the result was the same).

Near Washington : Cav wins fro guerilla.

Korea pays 4 gpt for gems.
Music theory to Celts for 12 gpt
Printing press to Zulu for 1 gpt + 3
Banking to Carthage for 46 gold.

Join a few workers in cities.

IBT :
Germany and France sign peace.
Celts and Zulu sign peace.
Trade embargo between Zulu and France against us has ended.

France drops a rifle next to Washington. Another one comes out of the jungle.

Constantinople : cav -> cav
Persopolis : art -> art
Kyoto : cav -> cav

Turn 10 - 1450 AD

Bombard Paris with 33 artillery. Lots of hits.
There are 12 vet rifles/guerillas and at least 2 conscript rifles.

Near Washington :
We lose 2 cavs against the rifles. And two others have to withdraw, before the remaining cavs are able to kill them.

Corporation is doable in 4 at 90% research. But we are at -49 gpt with only 159 gold in cash. There are 27-28 turns left till Paris has its cultutral victory.

After action report
Although I have made some progress by killing quite a number of French units (including defenders from Paris which I could decoy), I haven't been able to conquer Paris or even start a serious attack on it.

For that we simply need more cavs and artillery. I think we need 20 cavs (not counting the cavs in the armies) and 40 artillery there for an attack with a reasonable chance of success. In 10-15 turns we can probably be ready for that attack if we continue to build troops (and not unis etc...).

And after that we have to capture Orleans and probably recapture Paris once it's flipped. IMHO it's doubtful now that we can do that job in time so we should consider seriously now to take Paris and raze it. After that we can concentrate on the scientific and diplomatic issues.

Trading was very difficult in the last 10 turns and our financial situation is not good. Partly this is caused by our unit support costs, but apart from joining a few more workers, there isn't much what we can do about that. We simply need the troops for capturing Paris (and if we don't do that the game is automatically lost). And the other troops we need for defending the home island and the Persian continent and I don't consider those defenses very strong. If the Hittites really decide to attack us we will have some serious troubles there.

In the end it probably means that we have to lower the science slider during the rest of the war.

Other points :

The wars with England and Portugal are still ongoing. I didn't sign peace with them, because I was afraid to lose war happiness from these wars.

There are still 3 rifles/guerillas uncounted for in the jungle next to Washington. It's possible that they have been killed by our allies, but it's also possible (as happened in my last turn) that they suddenly appear next to Washington (by using the RR in neutral territory).

OK, time for the next player now.

Bluebox. Success

 

[leif erikson]

Sounds like you may need one of these after that turn set. Nice work!!

The question is to raze Paris or not. Can we produce enough units to take and hold the Paris and still go after Orleans?

Roster:
Bluebox - UP
Denyd - On Deck
Gator
Mathilda
Leif
Civ_steve
AVN - just played.

I'll try to look at the save later this evening. Got to run.

 

[civ_steve]

I was coming to the realization that we didn't have enough units towards the end of my turnset, and AVN's has further confirmed that. If we capture Paris once, I think that's enough to stop the cpt growth - we should be able to recapture it every turn if flips, so France should get no more culture from it since she wont control it at the beginning of her turn. I think Acience will have to take a back seat to taking France out; I'd still rather keep Paris (if possible) since it will really help us down the road.

Another thing that might help is 4 Cav Armies; if we can take 2 or more Riflemen everyturn, we'll whittle that pile down faster than she can rebuild it.

Also, would more decoying help? Perhaps placing Workers outside of Paris to destroy more defenders if they come out to attack them. Perhaps we should starve Paris down by occupying all the spaces around it; keep our artillery safe with a stack, but put Rifles/Infantry all around, especially the land spaces adjacent to Paris. If she attacks out, she'll lose units faster, and she wont be able to rebuild what she loses. Also, a smaller pop will lower the defenses. We can generate the units by drafting, if need be.

This is definitely tougher than I was thinking; I was concerned about being attacked but the problem is in the taking of Paris.

 

[bluebox]

Got it! Some nice tricks ... and learned something new from your log, AVN!

Maybe I can play this evening. Just gotta get home from band rehearsal timely.

I'd like those pillaging ideas. I'd use one of the armies and pillage the "inner circle" of Paris first - those are just four tiles. Paris couldn't trade with her wool anymore, plus to irrigations razed.

Putting units around Paris just makes our troops vulnerable. We might loose more than she. If we had enough Infs, that couldabin an option. Decoying french troops is nice. I'll let the cavs and arty's keep rolling off the steam powered conveyor belts.

 

[Mathilda]

I have to say that I'd be tempted to use the armies for reducing Paris defenders.
If with the amount of artillery we have we can get some of the defenders redlined and the rest to 2 hp, I couldn't just sit and wait.

A small thing, please sell our world map around, possible to get a bit of cash that way.

 

[AVN]

Got it! Some nice tricks ... and learned something new from your log, AVN!

Just wondering now.
What did you learn from my log ?

 

[civ_steve]

Yes ... inquiring minds want to know!

If you plan to pillage France's squares, you'll have to blockade her ports as well. However, wool spaces are so productive and generate so much food, that pillaging does little, IMO. And France's main source of commerce would appear to be her tourist trade on her Wonders (that's funny - this massive SOD lobbing tons of artillery at the city and still the tourists are flocking in to see the GWs! )

If we occupy all the spaces around Paris, including the water tiles, she'll starve one citizen a turn, eventually getting below size6; she can't use the spaces we occupy, so there's no great reason to pillage. If she attacks out, she'll lose as many, if not more, units than she takes (we do want to keep the Artillery protected and in one stack), plus she will only slowly replace the units she loses. We can get the units by drafting in our cities (2 HP Infantry), and we've got the food growth to replace the citizen quickly. It will mean that Science research will have to be reduced, if not totally turned off. We will need more Artillery - are we even taking a HP off all her defenders yet? And if we build MILACAD, we can get more Armies in the field, or replace armies we lose - they might have the mass to take a unit every few turns. Also, we can build PENTAGON, which will give us 4 unit armies, which will likely survive the attack and get to heal to try again in a few turns. It seemed to me that Armies will heal in enemy territory, so they don't have to be moved, and they heal to full strength in about 2 turns.

 

[AVN]

We will need more Artillery - are we even taking a HP off all her defenders yet?

With the current amount of artillery on the hill I was able to get all the vet rifles/guerillas to 2 hp and a few to one (due to the chance of a double hit).

However I was starting on the conscript rifles and I have no idea what sort of other troops are in the city.

We can certainly use more artillery so that we can redline the units, but we also need quite a number of strong units to take them out. Cavs have a decent chance against redlined rifles, but the chances already drop significantly against rifles with 2 hp.

I'm still not sure what the best strategy is to conquer Paris.

We can't build more armies (need 4 cities for each of them) unless we lose one of them and the building of the Pentagon is a little bit risky (requires at least 3 armies during the whole building period. Otherwise you get an expensive cav as I experienced in one of my own games). And because Constantinople is the only highly productive city in our empire building them delays the production of artillery and cavs we also need.

The worker decoy trick can certainly be tried (there are workers in the neighbourhood), But I'm not sure if it will work. But with trying it we don't lose much (if anything).

The starvation with infantry will surely work (I agree that pillaging the tiles around Paris is not very effective) but it will take some time to get them in place.

Finally if we build up the forces on the hill to 40 art and 20 cavs then I'm sure that we have a good attack on Paris. The artillery should be able to redline most of the vet rifles/guerillas after which the cav can have a go.
The armies then can attack rifles/guerillas which won their fights and get promoted.

With this force we will eliminate most of the defenders of Paris and in a 2nd attack round the next turn we should be able to take the rest of them and conquer Paris. The only worry I have with this strategy is that we don't have enough healthy cavs for the 2nd round as I expect that most of them will get wounded during the 1st attack round.

In the end I guess that some sort combination of above strategies will give the best result and a minimal risk that our attack will fail.

 

[bluebox]

Just wondering now.
What did you learn from my log ?

You mentioned you cancelled MA's in order to take out the target civ. In my games I constantly renewed MA's during wars until the enemy was gone or I decided to make peace.

According to your information, that was probably the reason for spoiled reputations in situations where I couldn't understand it - I always thought it was a resource trading deal that I incidentally broke.

If you plan to pillage France's squares, you'll have to blockade her ports as well.

You're right. The wool would be connected via the harbor in Orleans to the Paris harbor.

We can get the units by drafting in our cities (2 HP Infantry), and we've got the food growth to replace the citizen quickly.

Sorry, now I understand your suggestion. I hardly ever draft. I might try it. I'd like to play my first turn to get a feel for what's going on at Paris. About now!

Thanks for your hints!

 

[bluebox]

With the current amount of artillery on the hill I was able to get all the vet rifles/guerillas to 2 hp and a few to one (due to the chance of a double hit).

I that case I am very tempted to follow Mathilda's suggestion of using an army to kill one or two per turn. Armies can indeed heal in enemy lands.

I think the Pentagon route is a long term process that won't help us much with Paris.

The aim will be to effectively reduce the No. of units in Paris with a mix of methods, as AVN stated, maybe combined with a reduction of citizens.

 

[leif erikson]

Finally have gotten a chance to sit down with the save.

Good discussion and some great ideas.

The aim will be to effectively reduce the No. of units in Paris with a mix of methods, as AVN stated, maybe combined with a reduction of citizens.

I think you've found the key. If we can get enough Infantry units over to Paris and sit on her tiles around the city she will be unable to replace what gets destroyed. The only way I can see to get enough Infantry units fast enough is to institute a draft. Our cities are large enough and, for the most part, happy enough for now. Babylon looks like a great place to draft down to size 6 and save a few gpt units support.

Infantry attack is 6, as is Cavalry. Infantry will die instead of retreat, but can still be used to get that one last stubborn defender.

The unit support costs are going to get even more painful, but Paris must be ours!!

Good luck Bluebox!

 

[civ_steve]

Sounds like we have a plan to go forward. I am encouraged that we're hitting at least every Regular or Vet Rifleman in Paris; I hadn't achieved that by the end of my turnset. Conscript Rifles are about a 50-50 chance to lose vs a Vet Cav, so even if undamaged, they wont stand for long.

When starving Paris down, we only have to have Infantry on the spaces directly accessible to Paris (adjacent), and reachable by units in Orleans; so we don't have to wait until we have an infantry unit for every space. The other spaces can be a mix of other units, Knights, MI, etc; just enough to deny France the space. If she does take out a unit, we can likely counterattack her unit which will then occupy the space. With us effectively eliminating her production, she wont be able to replace that unit. Eventually, we will win out.

Good luck, bluebox!

 

[leif erikson]

Just thought I'd post that I heard from Gator last night. He is doing much better and, after catching up with some RL stuff, he may be able to come and check in with us. With all the reading to catch up on, he may


How is it coming Bluebox?
Joannie is waiting for a date with you...

 

[bluebox]

Joannie's singing: "Hit me baby one more time ..."

I'm pretty slow with my turns, mm'ing a lot to squeeze out some more gold, shields, and beakers. And yes, I still have all the armies in the game.

I'm at the beginning of turn 5 and I'd like to do some more turns tomorrow evening. I suggest I'll pass on the game then, regardless if I played 8, 9, or ten turns.

Here's the log so far:

Preflight: Fiddled around with our cities a bit. Amsterdam is producing an Infantry now. Some cities are generating more shields. Research is now due in 5 by reducing the slider to 70 and adjusting the no of scientists.

IBT: Furious Carth. approaches with MPP + ROP. Romans: WM = WM; change to WM + 3g = TM. Pars.: Arty -> Arty.

Turn 1 - 1455AD: Gall. unloads worker next to Pers. and picks up Arty. Paris has now 22 citizens, bombardments:
vRifle: -1
vRifle: --, --, -1
vRifle: -1
vRifle: -2
vRifle: --, --, -1
vRifle: -1
vRifle: -1
vRifle: -1
vRifle: --, --, -1
vRifle: -1
vRifle: -2
vRifle: -1
vGuerilla: -2

now a 3hp-vRifles shows up:

down to 2
DT 2
failed
DT 2
DT 1
DT 2
DT 2
DT 1
DT 2
failed
DT 2
DT1

now cRifles show up:

failed
cRifle: -1

cRifle shows up.

Paris currently has 12 vRifles, and at least 2 cRifles and 1 Guerilla.

Clearing poll. in Teno. Unload units in Wash. BREAK.

IBT: Arabs want Coal. Dismiss, no DOA. The Arabs cancel Wine deal. Zulu and Korea signed peace. Renew Ivory deal with Korea. Const. Cav -> Cav. Teno Cav -> Inf.

Turn 2 - 1460AD: Paris:
vRifle -2; -1
vRifle -1; -2
vRifle -1; -2
vRifle -1; -1; -1
vRifle -2; -1
vRifle -2; -1
fail
vRifle -1; -1; -1
vRifle -1; -1; -1
vRifle -1; -1
vRifle -1; -1
vRifle -1; -2
fail
vRifle -2

fail; fail; failed

cRifle -1
cRifle -1

3 rifles with 2hp each are left over; 11 rifles are down to 1hp. This was a lucky round with few missed. 32 arty + 2 added this turn. Decoy workers landed. 14hp army moves N of Paris, sees 2 redlined Celtics and 2 German units.

I try some drafting in low income/high happiness cities: Babylon (2); Rotterdam (1). Drafting could be useful for Feudalism b/c reduction in city size to <7 gives you more free unit support.

IBT: About 10 attacks at Orleans of unknown origin. A guerilla leaves Orleans to attack a celts Swordsman. Three galleons leave Orleans. Spain and Carthage made peace.

Const gets pollution and cannot finish Cav. Kyoto Cav -> Art.

Turn 3 - 1465AD: Const changes to Pentagon to save 70+ shields. Army kills Guerilla. I can see 3 Indian muskets E of Orleans. That's where the attcks must have been from.

Shelling Paris:
vRifle -2; -1
vRifle -1; -1; -1
vRifle -2; -1
vRifle -2; -1
vRifle -2; -1
vRifle -2; -1
vRifle -1; -1; -1
vRifle -2; -1
vRifle -2; -1
vRifle -1; -1
vRifle -1; -1
vRifle -2
vGuer -1; -1
cRifle -1
cRifle -1

f; f; f; f; f;

3 2hp riles and a 2hp guerilla left.

A french galleon is near Washington, followed by a German galley.

IBT: Indians get defeated at Orleans. 3 FR galleons and a frigate arrive at Orl. 2 FR guerilla are decoyed by Indian and Celtic units. FR lands a guerilla naer Washington, the England lands 2 horsies.

Rotterdam arty -> arty.

Turn 4 - 1470AD: vCav kills vGuerilla at Wash. 2 Cavs kill 2 Horsies.

Shellin' Paris:

vRifle -2; -1
vRifle -1; -1; -1
vRifle -1; -2
vRifle -1; -1
vRifle -2
vRifle -2
vRifle -1; -2
vRifle -2
vRifle -1; -2
vRifle -1; -1
vRifle -1; -2
vRifle -1; -1
cRifle -1
cRifle -1

ffffffffffff (No. of failures)

Killing Guerilla with Cav.

IBT: Trade with Iroq WM +2g=TM. Arabs renew Ivory deal. Germany and Celts are friends again. Inca renew Gems deal. Corp in. Teno: Inf. -> Cav. Memphis arty -> arty.Nineveh arty -> arty. BREAK.

Turn 5 - 1475AD: Paris is starving, now size 18. Culture: 17009. cInfs are in place.

I plan to check for more deals for gpt. With Pentagon we can even use the knight army then adding the eKnight in the arty stack.

 

[bluebox]

Forgot something important to tell you: You know Paris is generating pollution due to its size. In the meantime there are 3 tiles polluted, effectively useless. As she's not able to clean up the mess, we don't need any units in these tiles!

 

[leif erikson]

Did you fins a way to manufacture pollution for Joannie?

Sound like you are having a bit too much fun with that Artillery!

If you need to hold the game for another day to complete your turns, feel free.

That 17,009 sounds awful close to 20,000!

Continued good luck.

 

[civ_steve]

That's probably under 20 turns before 20K! We probably should take pot shots at the top defender with a Cav Army if it gets down to 2 hps. Once she's under size 13, perhaps we hit the top defender if it gets down to 3 hps? The armies will heal, and we need to whittle those defenders away.