SGOTM 13 - klarius

I think I would gamble on Spain being gone after their towns are captured. A lot of value in all that pop from those big towns.

In some situations I would agree with this. But we believe, based on the QSC results, that we stand well relative to the other teams (if they ever in fact get this far :crazyeye:). That's an argument for the conservative play of razing the big Spanish cities, which gives us a useful benefit (the slaves) without risk, rather than trying for more.

Also, the value of the Spanish population points should be adjusted downward to reflect the fact that those are extremely fertile sites, and our replacement towns there will grow very quickly--especially if we merge in Spanish workers, which will be an option if we do eliminate the Spaniards when we raze their last city.
 
I'd normally be in favor of daring more with our cavalries but NP has a good point with the workers. We need workers and resettling cities into more food-optimal places, completely disregarding resources, shield and commerce (unlike the AI's placement) could be beneficial.

We'd have the manpower to massively irrigate and rail throughout the place faster, which may not give us more pop in Spanish lands immediately but lets us sleep sound, with the added bonus of having that manpower still alive when we either send them back to Portuguese soil or forward into French/American lands.
 
Finally!!! This feels worse than a marathon. ;) Took the afternoon off just to make sure I really finished my turn set before the weekend.

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Turn log

0 – 800AD pre-flight
MM as suggested. Renegotiate Coal for 62 gpt.

IBT: China DoW Carthage. Netherlands and Korea sign a peace treaty. As do Scandinavia and Celts. Korea and Babylon sign a treaty vs. us. Koreans start building Smith’s. Byzantines and Portugal sign a peace treaty. Germany and Ottomans sign an alliance vs. Carthage. America and Scandinavia sign a trade embargo vs. us.

1 – 810AD
Badajoz captured with no losses to our forces, Army and 2 Cavalry attack.

IBT:Spain and Byzantines sign a peace treaty. Carthage and France sign an alliance vs. Celts. Arabs and Ottomans sign an alliance vs. Vikings. Persia and Ottomans sign an alliance vs. America. Celts and America sign a trade agreement vs. us. Inca and Persia sign an alliance vs. America. Ottomans and Arabia sign and alliance vs. Inca. Hittites and Arabia sign a peace treaty. Ottomans starts building Smith’s.


2 – 820AD
Capture Coimbra but alas Portugal has a Settler in transit somewhere. I rush 3 Frigates in the area to try and get this sorted ASAP.

IBT: Germany and France sign an alliance vs. Vikings and vs. Netherlands. Renegotiate Saltpeter from France, we now pay 72 gpt. Byzantines and Portugal sign a trade embargo vs. us. Russia and Ottomans sign an alliance vs. Carthage. Babylon and ottomans sign an alliance vs. Celts. Byzantines and Maya sign a trade embargo vs. us. Rome and Russia sign an alliance vs. Carthage. Zulu and America sign a peace treaty. Sumeria and Scandinavia sign a peace treaty. Byzantines and Zulu sign a trade embargo vs. us. Heliopolis finish Smith’s. Mongols switch to US.

3 – 830AD
1 Portugese Galley and one Carrack sunk, no end to them. :(
Capture Braga, being a former Portuguese town I keep it.

IBT: Byzantines and Korea sign a trade embargo vs. us. Byzantines and Germany do too (5 minutes later, I really do hate this game’s performance on my computer. It is a really painful experience being stuck in front of it and responding to popups every few minutes with nothing to do in between.). Zulu and France military alliance vs. Scandy. And Iroquois and France vs. Scandy. Korea and Ottomans vs. Hittites. Korea and Russia vs. carthage. Netherlands and America sign a peace treaty. Mongols and Scandy sign a peace treaty. 35 minutes waiting, this is impossible to continue with. If a turnset of 10 turns result in more than 5 hours of IBT waiting if is simply not possible to fit this game into real life. I hope you guys have faster computers because my 2.66/2GB machine is simply put not up to this challenge.

4 – 840AD
2 Frigates built.
Capture Evora with two attacks from an army.
Dispose of 2 Iroquois units offloaded near New World IBT.
Disposed of a Spanish Conquistador.
Sunk 2 Portuguese Carracks and redlined one for the loss of 2 Frigates.

IBT: Portugal and Rome sign a peace treaty. Celts and Korea sign a military alliance vs. us. Rome and Korea sign a trade embargo vs. us. England DoW Byzantines. Arabia and Mongols mil alliance vs. England. Persia and carthage sign a peace treaty. Httites and Babylon ally vs. us. Babylon and Ottomans ally against Carthage. Babylon and America sing a peace treaty.

5 – 850AD
I sink the redlined Portuguese carrack but they are still in the game. Where is the Settler?
A Samurai kill a Spanish conquistador and our GA start.
Capture New Groningen. No losses.

IBT: Persia and Spain sign a trade Embargo vs. us. Rome and Spain sign a peace treaty. Persia and Korea sign a trade embargo vs. us. America and Korea sign a peace treaty. Russia and Germany ally vs. us. Iroquois DoW Carthage.


6 – 860AD
Trade for Electricity, get 9000 cash,
Capture Leiria. No losses.
Capture São Paolo. No losses. Final location with Portuguese origin rest of Spanish holdings to be destroyed (at least until the last few remain and can be taken within two turns.)
Kill a couple of Spanish pikes threatening to destroy improvements next to Sagres and a leader appear.

IBT: Persia and Inca sign a trade embargo vs. us. Russia and America sign a peace treaty. Just two messaged this time, wonderful!

7 – 870AD
Raze Zaragosa, lose one Cavalry.

IBT: Byzantines and Spain sign a trade embargo vs. us. Arabia and Mongols ally vs. Persia. Spain and Carthage sign a peace treaty. America and Babylon sign a trade embargo vs. us. Russia DoW Persia.

8 – 880AD
Raze next Spanish town in desert, lose 1 Cavalry.
Kill a Spanish cavalry and a conquistador without any losses both Cavs promote to Elites!
Sink a Spanish Galley in deep ocean waters.

IBT: America and Rome ally vs. Scandy. England DoW Carthage. Maya and Mongols ally vs. England. Arabia and Carthage sign a peace treaty. As does Inca and Carthage. Ottomans and France ally vs Spain. German and Ottomans ally vs. America and against Portugal. Rome and Russia ally vs. us. Ottomans and France has Corporation.

9 – 890AD
A landing Iroquois disrupt the Cavalry build in Kagoshima so we can as well let it build HE in three now.
Capture Valencia since the location make it difficult to place a fresh Settler (France culture would expand into the area).
Found Echigo to allow attacks on both Madrid and Barcelona without a turn in transit.
With the new war vs. Rome I get France in on our side to cover our back.

IBT: Spanish Frigate attacks a Galleon and sink. Spanish Cavalry attack our cavalry and kill our Cavalry, unscathed. Maya and India ally vs. Zulu. Arabia and ottomans ally vs. America. Persia and Ottomans ally vs. Celts. Maya DoW Persia. China and America sign a peace treaty. Sumerians start building US. Russian Cossack and a Babylonian HM land on IronTip island. Mongols also have Corporation now.

10 – 320AD
Sink Spanish Frigate.
Raze Seville.
2 Cavalry kills the two intruders on IronTip island.
Raze Murcia.

Stop here! lots of units left to use and no MM done.

After action report.

Spain down to 5 Locations. We really should consider keeping Rio Janeiro, former Portuguese (I think so) and also owner of a coal deposit. If we raze RJ the territory will become French. Towns on French border need culture boost to stay ours. Flip risk to France in the low percentages but still a huge risk over time.

No luck in finding the Portuguese Settler, have introduced several AI in the pursuit hope someone gets him.

Settlers and some artillery in a railroaded tile near Lisbon/Suo. Several Cavalry left as well as a few scattered Workers. Ships left to be moved.

No MMing last turn. The landings near Mitaka disrupted the Cavalry build there.

Not sure about the area now open after the fall of Murcia, maybe we should have a Settler in waiting should someone apart from Portugal send a Settler there. But it might act as a trap to get Portugal to move his settler there?

With the war vs. Rome we now have a natural continuation of the war once we have removed the final few Spanish towns.
 
Well done getting through all that. :thumbsup:

I've got it, but I'll wait a bit for comments and discussion.

So, plans and questions:

I'll try to take the remaining Spanish cities, holding Rio Janeiro (sic) and razing the best, and then push on against the Romans if there's time in my round. We'll be replacing the Spanish cities mostly with Portuguese settlers, but it's unavoidable.

Once we have AT and Electronics from ToE and Corporation by trade, I assume we won't research RP, since the AI will come up with that. Do we have a preference as between Refining and Steel? More generally, are there any techs we want to hold back, or should we just make every useful trade permitted by our small number of trading partners?

We don't have any alliances left with the Mongols. Granted, we probably won't need their coal much longer, but do we want to renew our traditional alliances against the Vikings and Dutch with them, for gpt we'd then hope to get back?

If there are any of our nineteen enemies with whom we can make peace without losing war happiness, Klarius, just let me know. ;)
 
I think it's time for a change in our diplomacy.
We have no alliances against Dutch and Vikings left. So we can make peace. They aren't the biggest threats anymore and maybe we can get some money from them.
Also peace with all the people we don't want to be at war.
Korea, Babylon immediately. Russia when they talk. Celts, Hittites and England are also of no use to keep at war.
The civs we want to keep at war for sure:
Inca, Maya, Aztecs, China, Zulu.
Iroqouis, Arabs, Germany are also war happiness sources, but as we have enough we can make peace if necessary.
Make a bunch of peace treaties, but also alliances against the people we want to stay at war. The number of alliances against us will go down, if we have the people break more treaties.

I know, I cannot hold the war mongers back. :)
But really we need infrastructure, workers and settlers most, not cavs for more land. I want courthouse and library in every not completely corrupt city and we have many of those. Don't just build workers and settlers in cities w/o foreign population. Rush a granary first. Then get them up to a decent food surplus and rush settlers/workers. It is by far not enough to have one worker and one settler factory. When we have well over 100 (more like 200) workers we can think of slowing down worker production.

For science: it doesn't matter if we research steel or refining. We will have to research both as I don't think the AI will get through with RP before we start the second tech.
 
OK, thanks for the summary of the war-happiness situation.

Make a bunch of peace treaties, but also alliances against the people we want to stay at war.

With the alliances as part of the peace treaties, or independent this time?
 
Well, depends on how complicated you like the situation.
I would still do coupled alliances with civs which aren't important trade partners. Over time one loses some war happiness sources (civs getting destroyed, or WW eating up WH), so I alway like to have some spare.
So people like England or Hittites, which are really don't care more or less, we could do coupled alliances. Also Iroquois, if we should go to peace with them, as there we probably already lost a few WH points and could use a fresh batch.

People we want to trade with, we don't want to go to war, so no coupling there.

Celts are somewhat intermediate, we could go either way.

Don't include Portugal or Spain in any peace treaty/alliance. If they get destroyed we are at war w/o getting war happiness, but get a hit to our alliance reputation.
 
Everything's going smoothly in game terms, though very slowly in RL terms. We're in 940 AD, having just completed ToE and eliminated the Spanish. I hope to fit in one more session of play, but I'll post in a couple of days whether that happens or not.
 
Good to hear Spain is gone. No luck finding the portuguese Settler? Hope you are able to play a few more turns, even though i think we are at a stage when 5 turns might be enough for each turn set?
 
Good to hear that Spain is gone. I am sure there should be some gap for Portugal to settle. Funny that it didn't happen yet.
 
960 AD, end of turn

BTW, the SGOTM submission page won't load at the moment, so the above is just a normal CivFanatics save and the position hasn't been formally submitted yet.
 
900 (1): We make peace with the Vikings (gaining 9 gpt, 18 gold, their WM, and the town of Karasjok) and the Dutch (20 gpt, 37 gold, and their WM).

We make peace with the English for 145 gold and their WM. No coupled alliance is possible since we don't have an embassy with Lizzie.

We make peace with the Babylonians, giving them Karasjok, 1 gpt, and our WM; and with the Koreans, giving them 10 gpt and our WM.

Our other three peace targets won't talk.

We send Sanitation to the Byzantines for 55 gpt, 60 gold, their WM, and alliances against the Maya and the Zulus.

We send Electricity to the Koreans for 182 gpt, 258 gold, and their WM (full value).

We send Sanitation to the Dutch for wool and alliances against the Zulus, Maya, Incas, and Aztecs.

We send Industrialization to the Vikings for alliances against the Zulus, Maya, Incas, Aztecs, and Chinese.

We rush three improvements on the gamma island, and seven elsewhere.

We pick off a Spanish pikeman (1-0).

Our conscript rifleman in Echigo is defeated by an elite Iroquois knight, and the next Ir knight has a good chance to take the town--except that the first attack generates a Great Leader for the Ir, so the second knight turns around to escort it rather than attacking (1-1). :D

One of the galleons in our ship chain repels an attack, probably by an Iroquois caravel (2-1).

A seventeen-minute interturn.


910 (2): Madrid is tucked into a river bend and we need to approach it carefully, so we don't attack any Spanish cities this turn.

We found Tama Bochi approximately where we razed Murcia, but on a river.

We ride down two Ir knights, disposing of Cornplanter in the process (4-1). The dying-GL animation is rather good. :lol:

SciMeth comes in, and we're two turns from ToE.

Kagoshima HEROIC EPIC --> Pentagon.

A fourteen-minute interturn.


920 (3): We raze Madrid, held by four musketmen (8-1). With nine workers sheltering in the city our total haul is fourteen slaves, along with a cat.

We found Shinjuku on the ruins of Madrid.

We raze Vitoria, held by three musketmen and a cav (12-1). We gain five slaves. Every city razed means a five-minute wait now.

We unhorse an Ir knight (13-1).

The Celts will talk, so we grant them peace for linked alliances against the Zulus, Incas, and Aztecs, along with 7 gold and their WM.

We rush nine improvements, including granaries in towns with the potential for fast population growth.

The Zulus wipe out the Hittites.

A twenty-three-minute IT.


930 (4): We raze Barcelona, held by four musketmen (17-1). We gain five slaves.

Disposing of a German knight/LB pair landed on the beta island costs us a cav, and nearly a second (19-2).

We found Shibuya on the ruins of Vitoria.

We shoot down a Spanish musketman (20-2).

We found Kunitachi, settling the Spanish floodplain quite densely.

We make peace with Russia, paying 11 gpt and our WM.

The Portuguese request a meeting, which unfortunately doesn't let us know where their houseboat is. :p

One of our cav rebuffs the attack of an Ir knight (21-2).

The Arabs eliminate the Chinese.

We rush five improvements.

Iron Tip THEORY OF EVOLUTION (AT, Electronics) --> army.

The Mongols complete US.

A twenty-two-minute IT.


940 (5): We take and keep Rio de Janeiro, held by just a musketman and an LB after some softening up by the French (23-2). We capture four workers.

We found Tachikawa, a tactical town giving us access to Pamplona while being also well positioned in the Spanish floodplain.

We take the final Spanish city of Pamplona, held by three musketmen, a cav, and an LB, at the cost of a cav, and with an army barely surviving a terrible RNG run (28-3). Since this isn't as fertile a site as the others we've been taking from Spain I gamble slightly and keep the town, and it works out when we're informed that we've eliminated the "Strong Spanish".

We account for an Ir musketman landed on the beta island, though again it costs us a cav (29-4). I’ll start building up a small force of cannon on that island.

In rather messy fighting along the Spanish-Roman border we slay two Ir knights, an Ir LB, and a Roman LB, lose a cav, but gain a GL/army (33-5).

We Send Fascism to the Vikings for Corporation, alliances versus the usual suspects (Zulus, Maya, Incas, Aztecs), 1 gold, and their WM.

SciMeth and our WM to Korea for 494 gpt; SciMeth and our WM to the Ottomans for 230 gpt; SciMeth and our WM to France for 221 gpt; SciMeth and our WM to the Mongols for Espionage and 1055 gold.

Refining now due in nine turns at 100% research, 1252 gpt—but this is our GA, of course.

We rush four improvements.

At the last minute I spot a Byzantine settler/spear team landed on the Spanish coast—fast work by Theodora. To forestall an irritating foreign enclave we found Roppongi in a suboptimal but acceptable location.

An eighteen-minute IT.


950 (6): We take Roman Santander, again beating the French into the city after they wear down the garrison, so we have to overcome just one musketman (34-5).

We take Roman Santiago, held by two musketmen (36-5). We capture two workers.

We take Roman Jaen, held by a musketman and a pikeman (38-5).

We overrun an Ir LB (39-5).

We found Akasaka in the Spanish floodplain.

We rush four improvements.

There are thirty-seven Iroquois units in the war zone now—certainly more than we can deal with while also making progress with our modest army, since we’ve been building improvements this round, not units. Thus, we grant the Iroquois peace for 7 gpt, 10 gold, and their WM. Since it would be unpleasant to return to war with them soon, I don’t attempt linked alliances.

Hiawatha is still furious after the peace treaty, so we give him our WM, and amazingly enough he calms down to annoyed.

The Byzantines join Germany’s war against us. This may be inconvenient, since they have a lot of ships at sea, but anyway it’s more war happiness.

A twenty-five-minute IT.


960 (7): We found Koganei, Ogikubo, and Akihabara, filling in a lot of the holes in our control of the Spanish floodplain. For the most part we’ve been able to do this with towns which are on floodplain rivers but don’t actually occupy and waste floodplain tiles.

We trample the Byz settler/spear pair which probably provoked our war with Theodora (40-5).

We bombard and sink a Byz galleon off the gamma island (41-5).

Mountains slow down our offensive against the Romans, but we move two cav armies into position to attack Pompeii next turn.

We rush six improvements.

Fourteen elite victories this round, three of them before we completed HE, generated one Great Leader.
 
With four cav armies attacking musketmen we can quickly smash the Romans and take their fertile lands while still devoting our production to improvements—so, Klarius, no peacemongering. ;) If we’re hesitant we’ll lose a lot of Roman towns to the French.

The best available offer for AT is a bit less than 300 gpt from the Mongols, and after that no one can afford even 100 gpt, so I haven’t done it, though I wouldn’t strongly object either. It would probably be worth selling early-IA techs to England and the Iroquois for about 65 gpt and 40 gpt respectively now, though I leave this for the next player in case we want to incorporate these deals into a larger scheme.

We’ve made a good start on settling the Spanish floodplain, with many towns already possessing rushed granaries, so our population there should grow explosively. We will need to rush a temple (or library) in Ogikubo after its granary to fill one gap.

Be sure to take a look at the situation north of French Giza, with two of our frigates and a Byz galleon, before hitting Enter.
 
Conquest and settlement:

940AD.JPG


960AD.JPG
 
good progress...guess klarius is next.

I would keep on expanding while getting our science farms up and running. Somehow, in the screenshot, have to say that the French are in our proper path and might be a victim next?

Ar we building 5 banks for the Wall Street or do we neglect that?
 
The French have a lot of units, including cav, close to our many undefended towns, so we'd probably have to build up our army considerably before attacking them.

I assume we'll want Wall Street eventually, but 50 gpt isn't a big deal now, and the banks we'd have to build to get WS would be worthless in themselves at 100% research, so I didn't view it as a high priority.
 
I completely agree on the Wall Street. On a huge map, the 50gpt don't matter that much as income is very high anyway.
 
Well, I got it.

Wall street is really not worth it.
5 banks and 5 stock exchanges is a lot.
I would consider it only if we should capture Smith's at some time so banks don't cost maintenance.
That's for sure not soon as it means an all out war with France.

I'm not that happy that we are forced to go for Rome quickly. That binds a lot of workers as we have to build roads and railroads through mountains.

BTW, I uploaded the attached save in the name of NP.
 
I'm not that happy that we are forced to go for Rome quickly. That binds a lot of workers as we have to build roads and railroads through mountains.

There's already a road from Pompeii to Jaen, so it's a question of railing one mountain and one hill, nothing more.

Thanks for taking care of the upload.
 
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