shyuhe
Deity
Ras, Dhoom, and mdy had a number of test saves but I don't know what the PPP's for any of them are. My run(s) sucked.
Now that the first of these two Work Boats has found a passage to the SW of Gold island and is the "further west" of the two Work Boats, will we be using this western-most WB Explorer for our push westward, while the WB Explorer that is currently to the SE of Gold island will be used for netting Gold island's Fish Resource?T70
wb-gold-nw mv N-S (almost certainly dead-end), else NW
wb-gold-s, if wb-nw dead-end, mv E-SE, else W-E
How far to the northwest do we plan to go? The test saved game had multiple dot map options for the Silk + Desert island, so it was hard to tell which option we intend to use.wb-e mv NW, defogs 2clam site, then eastward, Vickie-ward
In this case it doesn't really matter, since we're pretty much agreed on Writing (with being able to squeeze in Hunting first with plenty of time to do so), but in future when we play these mini-turnsets, perhaps we should consider setting our Research Slider to 0% on the first turn of the turnset, to keep our options open.T72
0% research
Perhaps the PPP should go up until we learn Mysticism, at which point more people might be willing to play the then-updated test game forwards to see if we'd rather Lightbulb Philosophy or skip Philosophy?OK. So nothing major has changed. We have one proposal on the table from LC (post 793):
Oracle/MC in Gold City T105 1375BC (1400BC game log)
Research: hunting-writing-myst-masonry-medit-priest (poly instead of medit 1t later)
To help answer the question, here are our main options and the resulting Total Food, Total Hammers, and additional Flasks as of Turn 80, 2000 BC--a turn on which we are at Size 6 in every scenario.Micromanagement question: building the Lighthouse before Settler 3
So, what's the best way to do so?
The Lightbulb-Philosophy approach would PROBABLY work best with Cities where we could hire a lot of Specialists, so that we'd have the option of using Caste System. Losing Gold City as a possible Great Person Farm definitely calls into question the value of Pacifism + Caste System, since it's one of our best more-than-2-Specialist Great Person Farms.
So, it seems to me that we will probably be "automatically" deciding to go for the 2-Great-Scientist-no-Pacifism option if we put the Oracle in Gold City. It's not a bad plan, but we just have to realise that we'll very shortly be committing to the non-Pacifism approach. There should be no misunderstandings later about wanting to switch tracks before play proceeds.
As I suggest above, probably the last point that we can consider changing the plan is when the first of "learning Mysticism" or "getting Galley 1 in place to pick up Settler 3" occurs.
Actually, I think Dhoom is kind of right, simply because if we're going to build the Oracle in Marble, it has to be City #3 (before Furs City).This is the main reason why I want to build the Oracle in marble, though assuming our third city is there I think the point of no return is just after we discover priesthood, so we probably have a little more time to decide.
Hmmm, I see the "" and the "" but I'm not really sure how much you are joking about having to do it all over again!Actually, Dhoom, you have to do it all over again... I was switching a clam to gh on T74...
I never even tried corn instead of clam. Not sure why, but either I didn't thnk of it or I automatically preferred 1 to 2. Nice of you to crunch the number though.
Okay, do you mind elaborating a bit on which turns you plan to set the research slider to which value?In this case, my tests tell me exactly how much to set it to 0%. This affects when Writing gets done, for example.
I have finally had a chance to look at everyone's saved games. There are some interesting plays with a late Oracle, whether it be for Machinery or Philosophy. If we're not willing to risk a late Oracle, though, then our options are quite limited.I must say that I have a problem with the whole Philo discussion -- it hasn't been tested out, not even once, that I've seen. In theory, it sounds great, but how does it play out in practice? Do we really get our cities developed enough? Is it really faster? Do all those turns of anarchy slow it down too much?
Maybe. But, with an Oracle built in either the capital or Gold City, we tend to get an earlier Oracle, which improves our chances of getting it, and more importantly, we don't have to worry about having a bad City 3 as our Marble City, should the Oracle be built by an AI extremely early.For that matter, maybe all-out REX is the best solution and skip the Oracle altogether. Build the Pyramids instead and combine that with a late Philo push. It's hard to know without at least trying it.
minimum req'd total
max max req'd pop turns
City food #sci pop infra whipd req'd
---- ---- ---- --- ------------ ----- -----
Paris +11f 5 8 lib 3
Gold +10f 5 9 lh/gran/lib 4 ?
Pigs +10f 5 7 gran/lh 3 32t (38t w/library)
Marb +8f 4 6 monu/lh/gran 3 ?
2Clam +8f 4 6 lh/gran 3 ?
It's a balancing act. THe Philo path is not necessarily as simple as the pictures you guys have painted, because there's also possible warring against Vickie (we need a 10XP unit for HE, either by experience or attaching a 20XP-GG)
So the overall balance for a good philo run could easily be using Gold for early mobilization and Paris+Pigs+Marble for GPs.
Or should we consider Dhoom's idea of running a GA if the Gold/Oracle GP is a Prophet? After Gold has a library and a forge it can produce 11gppt, which might produce the second GP soon enough to precede our revolt to CS.
1. Literature would definitely be after Astro and Civil Service, but could come soon after. HE+Bureau+forge(+Moai) would crank out a lot of maces.
Well, the AI that is potentially closest to building the Oracle is the one that picked up Buddhism, in that it's likely the only AI to have had a POSSIBILITY of researching Priesthood at this point.AI_UNK1 built 2nd city T67 and founded Hinduism in it T68.
Izzy founded Buddhism, maybe Hinduism also, maybe not.
Buddhism is in a pop5 city and hasn't spread.
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Does any of this confirm mdy's contention that Oracle will be built more slowly on this map? My main concern would be Izzy, the GLH AI, and any industrious AI. It seems likely that the GLH AI did not found Hinduism, so maybe hasn't researched Mysticism yet.
1100 BC is probably my "cut off" date for what I'd feel comfortable accepting. In too many games I have seen the Oracle built in 1075 BC, 1050 BC, etc, but bumping things back to 1100 BC is a date that I could accept us trying for.mdy said:We build the Oracle in marble city, taking either MC around 1300BC, or machinery just after 1100BC.
If you'd only feel comfortable going with a date closer to 1300 BC, then we'd by default take Metal Casting (should we not fail to build the Oracle) but would be able to have put much of our manual research towards Code of Laws and thus would still be able to Lightbulb Philosophy should we manage to miss building the Oracle.The question on this would be, can we get Oracle in Marble by 1300BC, as mdy suggests, without hurting our REX too much?
Besides, even if we meet other AIs, with only 1 to 2 of them apparently knowing Bronze Working, how likely is it that we'll have met an AI who has learned Iron Working and also knows 1 to 2 other AIs that have learned Iron Working (probably about that many AIs will be required to know a tech before we can get it in trade).LowtherCastle said:AI_ISO built 2nd city T71 and has bronzeworking At most one other AI has it.
Well, I don't see a strong benefit to an early Alphabet, particularly since we will have self-teched the "Monopoly tradeable" techs like Fishing and Animal Husbandry by then... i.e. the techs that an AI will trade even if it believes it is the only player in the world to know such a tech.LowtherCastle said:Not sure if that's an issue, though, because I doubt we'd revolt to CS+Pacifism before about 500BC anyway, which is still workable.
Ahhhh, okay, I missed this fact. I just checked and confirmed that in order to Lightbulb Philosophy, we would need to know Code of Laws, Alphabet, and Math (which you guys apparently already knew).Waiting for maths to become available to trade was a big mistake as it delayed philosophy for too long
You can control the founding of a Religion if you settle a single City on the turn that the Religion is founded. In that instance, the Religion is guaranteed to be founded in the City that you just built.mdy said:6) If we wanted to build the pyramids in stone city it would need a border pop fairly soon, so ideally we would found it as city four and hope a religion gets founded there.
Two Great Merchants on Civil Service feels like it would be overkill. The tech costs less than 1900 Flasks and 1500 Flasks plus 3 Flask per population point would come from a single Great Merchant.We then generate 3 GS and 2GM using the previously outlined locations to bulb astronomy, optics, and civil service.
15sci * 25t * 4.5b/t = 1680b
5sci * 25t * 3.0b/t = 375b
Total = 2055b