SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw

[Dhoomstriker]

Or should we consider Dhoom's idea of running a GA if the Gold/Oracle GP is a Prophet? After Gold has a library and a forge it can produce 11gppt, which might produce the second GP soon enough to precede our revolt to CS.

Okay, let's think about it.

Let's assume that we plan to Oracle Philosophy and build the Oracle in Gold City.

By building Fur instead of Marble third, we can possibly get Code of Laws a bit faster, in that Research instead of production will be our bottleneck if we plan to put the Oracle in Gold City.

Presumably, Paris can still try to generate a Great Scientist, but it might wait to grow a little bit more before hiring Scientists until after we get our State Religion there and switch into Pacifism, so Paris can possibly be working another GH Mine in addition to running the Specialists, relative to LC's "Gold City Oracle Metal Casting" run... although the Specialists will be hired later... of course, we could still hire before Pacifism them if we're going to get too close to our Unhappiness limit. The point, though, is that we should still get a Great Scientist as our first Great Person for certain.

Gold could certainly try to get a Library up (would we STILL skip the Granary or get a Granary first?), so as to play the odds and hope for a Great Scientist.

If we got a Great Prophet, then sure, we could use it for a Golden Age. However, we wouldn't save on the Anarchy switches from:
a) choosing a State Religion
AND
b) choosing Pacifism

But, we could save 1 turn of Anarchy from switching into Caste System and possibly a second turn of switching out of it, if we didn't mind a 9-turn-stretch of Caste System... but probably, we'd stay in Caste System past the end of the Golden Age.

It's unlikely that we'd have Monarchy by that point, so really, we'd save 1 turn of Anarchy... nothing amazing, but usually you only save 1 or 2 turns of Anarchy when you run your first Golden Age anyway.

The real power of the Golden Age comes in from the extra GPP (although we'd get a few extra Hammers and Commerce, too, let's not worry about those things).

So, say that we could have a few Cities hiring several Specialists, how many GPP would we make?
Well, Paris could probably hire 4 to 5 Specialists, while other Cities might be limited by whipping unhappiness or Resources to 3 to 4 Specialists.

Gold City probably would NOT hire any Specialists during this time period, unless we figured that we could generate our Great Scientists/Great Merchants elsewhere before Gold City would be able to produce a second Great Person, in which case, we might as well hire Specialists during a time period when each Specialist's value is greater (i.e. during the Golden Age).

So, let's say that we had 4 Cities hiring somewhere between 3 to 5 Specialists, say, 3, 3, 4, and 5.

The Golden Age, assuming that we stayed in Caste System past the end of the Golden Age, would then give us an extra 3 GPP * 10 turns = 30 GPP per Specialist, or 90 GPP, 90 GPP, 120 GPP, and 150 GPP, respectively.

Add those up, and we get 90 + 90 + 120 + 150 = 450 GPP, just enough to cover the cost of our 3rd Great Person.


If you throw in that 1 turn of Anarchy saved, plus the extra Hammers and Commerce (which wouldn't be very much since we'd be hiring a lot of Specialists but would still count a bit), then maybe it's justifiable.

Still, I think that we'd greatly prefer to get a Great Scientist in that case.

So, we'd have to decide whether we'd prefer to "play the odds" and have an "acceptable" backup option if we got a Great Prophet or whether we'd rather just exclude Gold City from completing any Great People, which would, I imagine, relegate it to the role of Settler-pump.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Okay, why not the "best" of all worlds?

1. Primary focus on REX, researching Mysticism and settling Stone first (after Gold of course), to build monument-Pyramids.
2. Next settler (build before library) goes to Marble, to build the ORacle asap and take MC. Research Masonry next.

My understanding was that the Oracle would come late if we built Marble City as our 4th City, but I admit that:
a) I'm not really sure
AND
b) Getting an earlier Masonry may or may not help

6. Research to PH, then writing.
7. Build libraries (maybe forges first, depending on the timing of MC here).

Foreign Intercontinental Trade Routes aren't that much better than Domestic Intercontinental ones, so the delay on Writing probably won't hurt us too much, and we can probably make up lost Flasks by having Priesthood as a pre-requisite tech.

However, I wonder if the later Libraries would hurt our science rate too much? That's probably the only possible kink, but since it looks like most people only have 1 Library built early on, it's probably not that big of a deal (at most, we're talking about a difference of 3 Flasks per turn).

If, however, we're settling Marble as our 4th City, does researching Writing first really make a difference in the date that we can start Quarrying the Marble? If not, then we might as well finish Writing first... oh wait... you probably wanted to Quarry the Stone... okay, yeah, then Masonry first, I guess.

The idea here is to front-load REX. We'll still bulb Philo, after researching CoL+math, but we're not in such a hurry. When we finally revolt to pacifism+CS+Rep,

If we're delaying these Civics, will we completely forego early Specialists? Oh wait, you said that you'd Lightbulb Philosophy. So, would we then completely forego Specialists prior to the revolts in all but 1 City? Doing so would certainly give us more Hammers for REXing.

Which City would you have us build the Philosophy-Lightbulb Great Scientist in?

Any beakers we miss from the late Paris library are easily regained when we do our CS push.

Presuming that we don't get beaten to The Pyramids, yes.

That said, the date that we'd be targeting the completion of The Pyramids for would make it a very safe date, in my opinion.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I decided to try a very quick run and sure enough, we can get Masonry pretty quickly if we go for Mysticism -> Masonry instead of Writing next. Our Settler 3 settles to the SW of Marble, while Worker 3, once it is done Roading the Gold, can hop over to the Marble and can Road it and Quarry it.

I tried whipping Settler 3 after 1 turn worth of Hammers (i.e. the 17 Hammers invested in it after following the Turn 74 Corn -> GH Mine approach), but then our next Work Boat from Paris takes a while to come out. I think that it will probably be better to just wait 1 more turn to whip Settler 3, so that we can get a Work Boat out to Marble's Clam much faster. Delaying Settler 3 by 1 turn still works out fine in terms of being able to pick up our Worker on time. Our Galley 1 will only have 1 movement point for "moving away" from the Gold island, but since our target square for landing the Worker (on the Marble) isn't that far away, there is no loss in Worker turns... whereas there might be one lost Worker turn if Galley 1 needed to be moved to a different location.

Incidentally, I popped Gold in our Paris' northern GH Mine when following the immediately-pop-rush-Settler-3 approach... if only we could get that lucky in the real game!


Anyway, so there does appear to be decent synergy with delaying Writing and by Roading the Marble before Quarrying it, we'll still get Masonry in time for the Worker.

Then it will be a race to Priesthood, so that Marble City can get started on building the Oracle ASAP.

After that point, it will become an optimization problem... will we be able to research Writing + Code of Laws by the time that the Oracle will be completed, and if not, then how much longer would we have to wait... at which point it becomes a call between grabbing Metal Casting versus waiting on Philosophy.


So, yes, delaying Writing does open up an interesting option that I'll have to keep playing out to at least get a rough feel for the Oracle date versus tech pace at that point in time.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Youre' right, Dhoom, that Marble 4th delays the Oracle. I don't like that and will try Marble-Stone next.

 

[mdy]

The idea here is to front-load REX. We'll still bulb Philo, after researching CoL+math, but we're not in such a hurry. When we finally revolt to pacifism+CS+Rep, we'll easily be running ~20 specs (5+5+5+4+1), with at least 3 libraries (+Pigs). So Rep will give us:

We can't get representation early enough for this to work, and we would ideally want to revolt to pacifism before CS. As maths is run of the few decent techs we could

If we did use a GP for a golden age wouldn't it make more sense to have it just after we discovered astro when we would be in a better position to take advantage of it.

We could make Oracle in gold work with a 5 GP plan if we then used gold as our primary settler factory, ran 2 scientists (almost permanently till CS) in the capital, and used marble city as our third GP farm. This would mean committing to settle on the marble though, and as it is an inferior location we would need to start running scientists there prior to CS. The major disadvantage of this is that it would limit our rex compared to building the Oracle in marble.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

I tried a run where I settled Stone City 3rd and Marble City 4th.

It works out alright, in that Worker 1 loses 1 turn "doing nothing" after Roading the Gold, then gets to spend his time Chopping the Forest to the SW of the Marble, such that this Forest will get Chopped just before Settler 4 will settle on this location. By Chopping that Forest, I was able to land the Settler on the Marble and then "walk" onto the Chopped Forest square such that it only used up 1 movement point.

The other neat part about settling Stone as City 3 is that we can slowly get a Work Boat for Marble City without having a "Work Boat deficit" that we might otherwise have by settling Fur City 3rd.

I played it out and found that we wouldn't need a Work Boat for Stone City for quite some time... we could technically get a 5th City = Fur City out and use the Work Boat for it before Stone would need a Work Boat.

However, 1100 BC rolled by and Vicky beat me to the the Oracle (she built it on 1100 BC as per the Event Log).

I was still 6 turns away from completing it in Marble City, even though I started to build the Oracle a bit before the Marble was connected, although later than I possibly could have started on it:

Turn 97, 1575 BC: I had Priesthood
Turn 100, 1500 BC: I started building The Oracle in Marble City at City Size 2 while just starting to work the Marble that was Quarried on this turn
Turn 103, 1425 BC: The Marble was connected via a Road and I learned Writing

I suppose that had I not Chopped the Forest that Marble City would have settled on, I could have pre-Roaded the Marble, saving me some turns in getting the Marble connected.

Settling Marble City as City 3 might have shaved a turn or two off, too.

I suppose that pre-building a LIGHTHOUSE instead of a Granary would have been helpful, too, since I could have whipped its pre-built Hammers into the Oracle... which actually means that ALL of the Hammers "collected" before starting on the Oracle could have been DOUBLED in value when overflowed into the Oracle.

Anyway, I'm not really sold on building the Oracle in Marble City by settling SW of the Marble, at least not the way that I played it out. Doing some of the above suggestions would definitely help, though, some of which could have been what mdy was doing.

However, I think that it's worth a trial run to try settling Marble City ON the Marble and go Mysticism -> Meditation -> Priesthood (start on the Oracle in Marble City without Marble being connected... half-strength Hammers are better than no Hammers) -> Masonry -> Writing

Follow it up by Chopping the NE and SE Forests, followed by chopping the SW Forest last, so that we can work this Forst for its extra Hammers while the Oracle is built.


We might then get a slightly better Oracle date that way... it's worth a try. I think, though, that in light of the "store Hammers in a Lighthouse idea and overflow them into the Oracle" above, that Marble should be settled 3rd, regardless of where we place this City, if we plan to build the Oracle in Marble City.


Note that I was nowhere near finishing Code of Laws, but I also had 0 Libraries, so even with that later Oracle, we weren't really gaining anything.

It does beg the question, though, if focus on 2 early Libraries instead of doing to much REXing, one in each of Gold and Paris, for the sole purpose of increasing our research, whether we can get Code of Laws (for Oracling Philosophy) at a reasonable date.


As a funny note, Vicky lost her 2nd City to a Barb Archer after starting on the Oracle.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

We can't get representation early enough for this to work, and we would ideally want to revolt to pacifism before CS. As maths is run of the few decent techs we could

By settling Stone City as our 3rd City, I got The Pyramids on Turn 153, 305 BC.

Note that LC's 2-Great-Scientist approach gets us Great Scientist #2 on Turn 172, 20 BC.

We probably could have shaved a couple of turns off here... I was "wise enough" to 1-pop-whip the Granary so that it overflowed into a Stone-enhanced Pyramids in Stone City, but there were probably 2 turns where the City was working a Grassland square instead of the Grassland Hills Stone square, and the Granary was whipped at a not-ideal-time (I wasn't paying attention to this detail).

So, let's say that we'll get 20 turns of Representation prior to LC's 2nd Great Scientist date (where we say that we can at least improve my date by 1 turn and where we count any further extra turns obtained through efficiency as having been "eaten up" by our earlier turns of Anarchy).

Now, we are building a Monument before a Granary, so there is a tiny chance of expanding borders otherwise if we manage to beeline Code of Laws within a reasonable timeframe, but let's just assume the 20 turns by first having to build a Monument there, since the City really picks up once the Magical Fish is within our Cultural Borders, and if we don't FOUND a Religion there, then +1 Culture from a Missionary is not really faster to expand our borders than +1 Culture from a Monument.


However, by making Stone City our 3rd City, we must then build the Oracle in one of Paris or Gold City.


I don't know if "20 turns" is "enough" in terms of Representation.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

will try Marble-Stone next.

The Pyramids will be delayed even more, by settling Stone City 4th instead of 3rd, to the point where The Pyramids might just come too late.

That said, I see how going for Fur 4th would kind of suck, since we're busy racing to Masonry + Priesthood and don't really have time to fit in Hunting... although one could argue that we could set up Fur City and just use the Crab while 1-pop-whipping whenever the City reaches Size 2 and forget about the Fur for a while.

But, if you go with Marble -> Stone, where you 3-pop-whip Settler 3 ASAP on Turn 80, then you will get your next Work Boat on Turn 85. This approach works fine with settling on the Marble, but if you want to settle 1SW of the Marble, then you should wait a turn and whip the Settler on Turn 81, so that you'll get your Work Boat out faster.

ANYWAY... assuming that you settle Marble City 3rd, Stone City 4th, and settle Marble City on the Marble, then you find that your Turn 85 Work Boat doesn't really have a place to go... so, you send it to Gold City. Then, should you really build a Work Boat next? NO! We have Mysticism by this point. So, slow-build a Monument next in Paris! If we're going to get a Worker next instead of Settler 5, then this approach makes even more sense, as we won't need another Work Boat until we go to settle City 5.


EDIT: Maybe better: overflow Settler 3's Hammers into a Monument on Turn 81 and complete the Monument before the Work Boat, completing the Monument just in time as we grow to Size 6.

This delay in getting out the Work Boat probably just means 1 turn of delay in netting the Gold City's Clam... but then that extra Happiness will translate into extra Commerce for a few turns, at the cost of 1 turn of missing 2 Food from Gold City (if I worked out the travel time for the Work Boat correctly).

Although you could argue that working Magical Fish + Clam instead of Magical Fish + Gold allows us to grow quicker and work all 3 squares, which would make you think that we should just get the Work Boat on Turn 85 before starting on the Monument, we are at a point where we're racing to Masonry + Priesthood, so that short-term slow growth but extra Research from working the Magical Fish + Gold the whole time seems to be a better approach.


Hmmm... it seems that I want to 3-pop-whip our Settler 4 after only 1 turn of investing turns into it, since I have stranded Worker 1 on an island to pre-Chop a Forest and he's already going to lose 1 Worker turn... so, we're really just trading 2 Food in Gold City for 2 Commerce in Paris... which is probably fine since we want Commerce at the present moment, but it's not really a big deal.


EDIT to the EDIT: Okay, maybe we should just get the Work Boat before the Monument in Paris, since Gold City will miss out on a couple of turns of using the Netted Clam for only gaining 1 turn of working a Coast square in Paris (which just works out to be 2 Commerce... you don't get "extra" Hammers from the 2 Food).

Either that, or we should whip the Granary in Gold City at Size 2, but it's not a great time to whip, so I think that Work Boat before Monument is the way to go. Oh well.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Well, I managed to build the Oracle in Marble City on Turn 109, 1275 BC for Metal Casting.

I forget whether that's any good compared to previous test runs. We might be able to shave off one turn here with proper Science Slider management, as I had Priesthood + Masonry 1 turn later than I wanted to have them, although I had enough Gold saved up that if I'd managed the Science Slider better, I could have had both techs by the time that I just had Priesthood (I'd pre-Researched Masonry but didn't complete it). This situation meant that I had one turn of building the Oracle without the "double Hammer" bonus... it may or may not change the date... but assume that this date is the best that we can get with the Forest Chopping that I used.


So, that's the date for settling City 3 on top of the Marble and Chopping the Forests to the NE and to the SE. It didn't seem to help to Chop the Forest to the SW of the Marble after that, as the Oracle would be completed on time.

What WOULD help, though, is Chopping the Forest to the SW INSTEAD of the Forest to the NE or to the SE... doing so would shave off a couple of turns due to the amount of Hammers received being larger.


Technically, since the Worker that pre-Chopped the NE Forest had a "turn to kill," it migiht even make sense to pre-Chop the SE Forest and leave the NE Forest around, especially considering that the NE Forest has a chance to spread onto the GH to the north of it (unless there is a Resource on that GH square), and it also has a chance to enter our Cultural Borders later.

The SE Forest won't even be within our Cultural Borders from Marble City's Cultural Borders expanding, so it's probably the better Forest to sacrifice.


Stone City went 4th and we've just recently gotten the Stone Quarried.

I have zero Libraries but I did settle a 5th City: Fur City.

We completed Writing and Hunting.


So, there is a bit of room for improvement by switching whicih Forests get Chopped around Marble City.

I also didn't try too much optimization, in that I did't run the numbers to see when it would be ideal to whip Gold City's Granary, for example, but I think that I came within at least 2 turns of the ideal time to whip there.

I also dedicated Stone City to 100% using the GH Mine from the capital, relegating the capital to using Coast squares when it was at Size 5 or higher and actually had Happiness to work them (generally, that only meant working 1 Coast because we generally stayed Unhappy at Size 6, even with a Monument in Paris).


We could also probably get more overflow Hammers by delaying City 5 (I barely got any overflow Hammers from Settler 5) and we might instead just want to whip a Library first anyway.


By building Worker 2 after Settler 4 and by Chopping only 2 Forests by the Marble (one gets pre-Chopped--I used the NE Forest but I'm thinking that the SE one would be better), then we find that Worker 1 is already at the Fur location... which could be improving the Fur or could just be pre-Roading the Fur if we want to delay Settler 5 for more overflow Hammers... and should probably find a different job to do first if we build a Library before Settler 5.


Oh yeah, I also put a ton of signs on the map, which made the test run go a lot slower but should help in reproducing the test run later if we like parts of it.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Okay, I just "faked" an edited test run by using the World Builder to move my Worker and Chop the SE and SW Forests instead of the SE and NW Forests.

We then get the Oracle on Turn 107, 1325 BC.


If we instead chop the NE and SW Forests, then we get the Oracle on Turn 105, 1375 BC, because by settling on the Marble, the NE Forest Chop is more valuable. However, we "lose 10 easy Hammers" since this Forest would have been in our big fat cross and would have been worth 10 more Hammers once it was within our Cultural Borders... and then another 15 more if we got Math... and would also be workable as a square for 2 Food and 1 Hammer if we wanted to use it in a pinch.


If we still felt that these date are unsafe, then we could delay Quarrying the Stone and could use the second Worker to Chop the third Forest, which would get us the Oracle on Turn 102, 1450 BC... but then we'd have some definite loss of Worker turns from needlessly shipping our Worker 2 around when he could just be staying in place at the Stone and Quarrying.


So, by settling on top of the Marble with City 3, as long as we don't mind taking Metal Casting with the Oracle, we have a lot of flexibility in the date that we will complete the Oracle.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Oracle/MC 1375BC (Log: 1400BC) on Marble
Pyramids 425BC (Log: 440BC) in Paris
100% GS born in Gold
CoL+Math researched by hand, though I could have traded for all sorts of stuff.

Paris, pop7 (pop8 in 5t), all infra, building barracks
Gold, pop8 (pop9 in 13t), all infra, building barracks
Marble, pop6 (pop7 in 1t), granary, lh
Stone, pop2, monument, granary, lh
Pigs, pop6 (pop7 in 2t), granary, lh
Furs, pop2, monument

29 turns to 1AD. ~18t to Civil Service at current research rate. If Paris pops a GE, we could use it on Machinery. If Marble pops a GProhet, we save it for a golden age. Anyway, our research will fly like a bat out of hell. BOth wonder dates relatively safe.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Sounds pretty good... I can guess which Forests you Chopped into the Oracle without even opening your saved game.


It's nice to see that you rose to the challenge and got The Pyramids earlier than my half-baked test. Did you focus on dedicating the GH Mine to the Stone City until the Stone war Quarried? Or did you build The Pyramids somewhere other than in Stone City?


I see that you are commenting on having built Infrastructure... but... should we be planning a couple of Triremes into our build path? Even if we do not face Barb Galleys, they'll eventually be of good use, if for no other reason than to upgrade them to Caravels to help us Circumnavigate and to later "protect" our Galleons (Caravels get chosen over Galleons to defend a ship stack in BtS... well, at least when you have units in the Galleons, I am not sure about when your Galleons are empty).



Does your plan incorporate Pacifism or just Representation?


Hmmm, GE in Paris... I wonder if that's where The Pyramids went or if it's from a Forge. Too bad that I am too tired to look at the saved game for now. Time to go sleepie...

 

[LowtherCastle]

Pyramids in Paris (see line 2). Everything else is open. No point in planning for triemes, etc. Those are in-game decisions, I think. I haven't revolted to anything yet.


Sleep well, maestro!

 

[Mitchum]

CoL+Math researched by hand, though I could have traded for all sorts of stuff.

...snip...

29 turns to 1AD. ~18t to Civil Service at current research rate.

I just took a look at the save and we still have a lot to research before Astronomy. Even with Representation and Caste System, how long would it take to finish Calendar (trade?), IW (trade), Machinery, Compass, Optics and Astronomy (2 GS bulbs)?

Since we've researched Meditation, is the plan to get Alphabet (trade) and then bulb Philosophy to run Pacifism? How many great people would we need in this scenario?

If we research Civil Service, then we open up the Paper/Education GS bulbs, right? I thought the plan was to avoid CS until after Astronomy.

BTW, I agree that the Oracle and Pyramids dates are quite safe.

 

[mdy]

440 BC is a very impressive date for the pyramids on this map. Could we still do this if we Oracled philosophy instead (1175BC is currently my best date)?

The lack of religions present in our cities, and hence lack of pacifism looks like it would cost us 2 GP's.

I forgot that a GM bulb actually yields 1500+ beakers on epic instead of 1000+, so 1 GM bulb would be enough for over 90% of CS. This means that if we got 5 GP's we could:

double bulb astronomy, bulb optics, bulb 90% of CS with a GM, and use our final GP to bulb engineering. As we could also do this with an engineer or scientist it is not incompatible with building the pyramids in the capital. Combined with representation boosted specialists this should enable us to research/trade all the other techs we need and get CS/engineering/astro before 1 AD. If things go well be might even reach literature/drama for the globe/heroic epic by this date.

If we research Civil Service, then we open up the Paper/Education GS bulbs, right? I thought the plan was to avoid CS until after Astronomy.

We would delay completing CS until after we bulbed astro.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I just took a look at the save and we still have a lot to research before Astronomy. Even with Representation and Caste System, how long would it take to finish Calendar (trade?), IW (trade), Machinery, Compass, Optics and Astronomy (2 GS bulbs)?

Since we've researched Meditation, is the plan to get Alphabet (trade) and then bulb Philosophy to run Pacifism? How many great people would we need in this scenario?

After revolting and assigning what specialists we can with teh current save, I have us researching 187bpt. Calendar in 5t or less, for example. Yes, the idea wuold be to run Pacifism.

Could we still do this if we Oracled philosophy instead (1175BC is currently my best date)?

Well, I build and poprush a forge in Paris immediately after we slingshot it. That saves the Pyramids 5t on its hammers alone, to say nothing of the fewer turns prebuilding 2 settlers and the library and the hammers on those builds, plus a wb... . I kind of doubt it would happen.

The lack of religions present in our cities, and hence lack of pacifism looks like it would cost us 2 GP's.

Well, we'd definitely want to bulb Philo as soon as possible. The GS comes out 3t earlier. It's a bit tight. BUt then again, we don't have to start farming the GPs just then either.

Btw, I completely forgot about the +3 from Rep. So we could grow our pop a bit more, because I was putting the brakes on toward the end.

Another thing I realized was that this is probably one of those situations where fast early research doesn't help because the AIs are so far behind. This strategy plays well to that because we're REXing and Wondering while they hopefully catch up. So I wouldn't risk the Philo slingshot and just hope that we get to trade for what we want. If we can't, our reserach will kick ass anyway. Furthermore, if we can't trade, other teams can't either, so we're all in the same soup.

 

[shyuhe]

Those are some good wonder dates.

mdy - what about bulbing philosophy with an early GS so that we can run pacifism earlier? The religion + pacifism should let us easily recoup the cost of that bulb and more. Or does it conflict with the astro double bulb plan?

 

[mdy]

mdy - what about bulbing philosophy with an early GS so that we can run pacifism earlier? The religion + pacifism should let us easily recoup the cost of that bulb and more. Or does it conflict with the astro double bulb plan?

We need to know maths and alphabet before we can bulb philosophy and waiting for the AI to research them will probably take longer than we would like.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Test 2

Got the GS in Gold 3t sooner 550/525BC. Also got CoL earlier and lucked into being first, I suppose.

One important point to note on the Pyramids date, btw. I'm settling very agressively, both Pigs and Furs. This slows the Pyramids down a turn or two, but it's worth it. But more interesting is that I'm building the Pigs wb in Paris. That's 45h not going into the Pyramids. If it so happens that one of our exploring wbs dead-ends and returns, that would gain us 8-9t on the Pyramids. (We could sacrifice the crabs wb instead...)

Attached is my "PPP," first draft.

 

[mdy]

I'm unconvinced that the pyramids are worth it. From LC's save it looks like representation will get us around 75 beakers/turn. Over 25 turns in CS that's 1875 beakers, or around 1 GP bulb.

I've been playing around with LS's save and the lack of earlier religion/pacifism really hurts GP production. If we wanted 3 GS to bulb philosophy and astro we would not get astro till well after 1AD, even with just 2GS's to bulb astro we still get it well behind the GP spam strategy. And even then we would still be behind in tech in total because the extra beakers from representation do not outweigh the 2-3 GP's we would lose with this strategy.