SGOTM 13 - Spooks

[Andronicus]

Persia is also available as a new contact, maybe they are backwards also?

Also Mayans, but of course they arnt scientific

 

[Paul#42]

Question - where had you intended settling Paul? The only option I could see is east, NE of NO (Ise culture has taken some tiles from us)
- you said 2NW of of Ise above, but that is where Queens is situated

I was thinking W-SW of New Orleans. It basically gets us a road from NO to Queens speeding up our reinforcements to the front (and back in emergency).
I see no need to settle towards east now.

 

[Andronicus]

I was thinking W-SW of New Orleans. It basically gets us a road from NO to Queens speeding up our reinforcements to the front (and back in emergency).
I see no need to settle towards east now.

W-SW is my orange dot - unfortunately it wont get a road through to Queens as Ise culture will claim 1 tile on the way.

edit I see we have rop with Monols for 5 more turns. Once this ends we wont have a road connection because Ise has cultural control of Queens cow.

Playing now - will aim to settle orange dot

 

[Andronicus]

Update time

I need advise on whether to take peace with India - if no comments I will make peace

Pre-flight trades
Cheapest contacts are from France
Persia WM + 25g (11 towns, up monarchy, mono and engin - cant sell WM)
Maya 17g (6 towns, backward in AA but know monarchy, broke)
Trade Maya CoL, maths & MM for monarchy; gift them const and currency (in hope they may one day be a trading partner: edit see later )
Gift Byz curr, CoL, Poly & HBR ... bummer, looks like they got feud

Rush rax in Queens, switch NO to settler

IT
Iroq and Celtic fleets hover around our islands
Rome & Port PT
India and Carthage MA v us => Izumo riots (only town with Carth citizen)
Queens rax -> pike
Sev resistors quelled

790AD
Rush settler in NO
No-one wants our WM. Rome down to 2 towns

IT
MA Scand & Mong v Neth
MA Bab & Celt v Romans
Korea dow Rome
MA India & Zulu v us
MA India & Vikings v us
India signs trade embargoes v us with America, Maya and Rome
An American settler spear pair departs SW from NY
NO settler -> MDI
Suo worker (Indian) -> worker
More resitance ends (only 1 resistor left, an Indian in Shimoneski)

800AD
Upgrade 5 warriors at 90g each in Queens
settler moved to orange dot
2 cats landed on Kappa (now have 3 ? enough to take Tokyo)
rush Pike in Queens

India will give peace but wants 400g - do I take it? I think we get dogpiled otherwise
Otto has over 6000g, India 13,800+g, Rome down to 1 town and about to exit - do we do a cheap trade (actually with all citizens on tax we lose 43gpt so we cant get out of a gpt payment early since we cant make a gpt payment - unless we buy gpt with our cash edit Ottomen will give us 100gpt for 2070g, allowing us to use 57gpt to buy techs from Rome with hope they get wiped out next turn - it leaves us with small gpt surplus but no cash surplus to rush units - perhaps we have enough already, but at risk of dow from Ottomen losing our iron and gpt)
No guts, no glory I say

edit 2 Our economic position is decidedly shaky - we only make 1 gpt payment to the AI - 12gpt to Rome, but find ourselves losing over 60gpt thanks to unit support currently costing 94gpt. CA2 shows switching to monarchy saves us about 50gpt (at cost of 2 turns production) Worth considering?

 

[Paul#42]

India will give peace but wants 400g - do I take it? I think we get dogpiled otherwise

We definetely should sign peace. It's just that expensive because India's reputation will be trashed after breaking so many alliances and embargos. To sign other treaties against us will be even more difficult for them in future.
Even if they don't pile more rivals on us the risk of facing some of their cavs at our gates is rising every turn. Carthage is enough a threat already.

Otto has over 6000g, India 13,800+g, Rome down to 1 town and about to exit - do we do a cheap trade (actually with all citizens on tax we lose 43gpt so we cant get out of a gpt payment early since we cant make a gpt payment - unless we buy gpt with our cash edit Ottomen will give us 100gpt for 2070g, allowing us to use 57gpt to buy techs from Rome with hope they get wiped out next turn - it leaves us with small gpt surplus but no cash surplus to rush units - perhaps we have enough already, but at risk of dow from Ottomen losing our iron and gpt)
No guts, no glory I say

Taking gpt from Ottomes would hinder us do dow them when teh Iron deal runs out... And they are wealthy. But that may change with every tech researched by some other civ. Nevertheless I'm reluctant to trade away our cash...
You never know if you get it back.
Otoh it will prevent Ottomans from attacking us. Maybe they enter our territory one day
And we need to catch up in tech. Rome is an opportunity. With G&R we would certainly get a tech for peace but I doubt they will still be alive then... We might however give them a shelter on our Kappa...

edit 2 Our economic position is decidedly shaky - we only make 1 gpt payment to the AI - 12gpt to Rome, but find ourselves losing over 60gpt thanks to unit support currently costing 94gpt. CA2 shows switching to monarchy saves us about 50gpt (at cost of 2 turns production) Worth considering?

We should have considered that long ago
One thing that is in favor of Republic is the greater resistance against spy activities iirc. But unit support will haunt us for quite a long time I guess so sparing 50gpt and getting MP happiness again is worth considering...
Isn't it just one turn's production we lose anarchy?

 

[Andronicus]

OK peace it is with India. The more I think on it the more revolting to monarchy appears a no-brainer.

I was proposing buying gpt with cash from Ottomen so we would have gpt to trade to Rome
This risks Ottomen dow to break the gpt they would be paying us
I dont think the waiting to G&R them is a major issue since we still have 17 turns left on our iron trade so wouldnt be doing G&R until at least then anyway - 3 more turns to wait isnt much
Another option is to revolt immed and put all citizens to taxmen. That's 22 cits (1 resistor we cant use) giving 44gpt - 12gpt we owe currently allowing us to trade 32gpt to Rome for a tech. I would favour doing this and getting Ottomen gpt to give us some tech catch up. I think a number of AI may still be in MA (certainly quite a few still lack PP and Nav as we couldnt trade contacts and still cant trade WMs))- if only we could get some techs we could trade for.

The alternative is to do as you suggest - give them a Kappa shelter then G&R them later. Unfortunately I could see their Kappa town not lasting long as it would be without defence until they could build their spear and there are numerous ships in surrounding waters including many of their enemies.

I'm off to bed now and will sleep on it and continue tomorrow

 

[Paul#42]

I was proposing buying gpt with cash from Ottomen so we would have gpt to trade to Rome
This risks Ottomen dow to break the gpt they would be paying us
I dont think the waiting to G&R them is a major issue since we still have 17 turns left on our iron trade so wouldnt be doing G&R until at least then anyway - 3 more turns to wait isnt much
Another option is to revolt immed and put all citizens to taxmen. That's 22 cits (1 resistor we cant use) giving 44gpt - 12gpt we owe currently allowing us to trade 32gpt to Rome for a tech. I would favour doing this and getting Ottomen gpt to give us some tech catch up. I think a number of AI may still be in MA (certainly quite a few still lack PP and Nav as we couldnt trade contacts and still cant trade WMs))- if only we could get some techs we could trade for.

Great idea to revolt now!! I did not have in mind that this frees gpt.
Let's overthrow the government and inthrone a king!
We want to be ruled!
However 32gpt=~600g might be insufficient to buy a tech...

The alternative is to do as you suggest - give them a Kappa shelter then G&R them later. Unfortunately I could see their Kappa town not lasting long as it would be without defence until they could build their spear and there are numerous ships in surrounding waters including many of their enemies.

There are some towns that don't have any land tiles - however the Palace would gain some culture and they might get land tiles... Maybe a rop would help blocking their coast?
But if we get a tech for our gpt it might be the best deal we get.
Wait - they signed a trade embargo with India against us...
Will they offer us a tech for gpt? Or is that obsolete by our peace? I don't think so.
That might call for the exile solution.

I'm off to bed now and will sleep on it and continue tomorrow

I like this, while I'm at work other people just have breakfast or play civ or go to bed...
global village rulz

 

[Andronicus]

Wait - they signed a trade embargo with India against us...
Will they offer us a tech for gpt? Or is that obsolete by our peace? I don't think so.
That might call for the exile solution.

Blast, I forgot about this - I'm certain they wont accept our gpt whilst the trade embargo is in place. I'm sure signing peace with India just destroys her MAs v us, not her trade embargoes. We cant even dow Rome and pay gpt to one of their enemies in a MA to gain a tech as we still have a 12gpt payment to Rome operating and dowing them would break our trade rep.

Oh, and dont fret about not revolting to monarchy sooner - we only just obtained it thanks to our contact with Mayans.

Have to have another think about this - I cant see an opportunity in Romes eminent demise at the moment (other than freeing up the remaining turns on our pre-existing gpt agreement with them)

 

[killercane]

I was about to say where did Monarchy come from. Im totally lost w/o looking at the save.

 

[Andronicus]

I was about to say where did Monarchy come from. Im totally lost w/o looking at the save.

Apologies

[URL="http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm13/Spooks_SG013_AD0800_01.SAV]here it is[/URL]

 

[Andronicus]

No further comments?
I'll play on

 

[Andronicus]

Update time

840AD
We are a monarchy
We are at peace with India
We have the first Carthaginian cavalry on NO's doorstep and they aint talking
We are at war with America - have captured New York and Boston, Chicago's next
We have a military great leader - I assume we use it for MDI army - any other reasonable options?
We are ready for a G&R with Spain (or are we?)

I've saved here

 

[Paul#42]

cool! MGL makes perfect sense now

I'd say MDI army it is. We need to fight Carthage...
I'll have a closer look later.

Do we jump palace to Chikago?

 

[Andronicus]

Do we jump palace to Chicago?

We have to take it first
Pity we dont know anyone at war with Carthage - we could gift NO to them leaving a retake force outside then take it back from Carthage - the loss of city would be great for persuading peace and allow a palace jump

Current wars I am aware of include
Scandinavia v Celts & Indians (Scandinavia now owns Ratae C.)
Mongols v Dutch

This would prove useful if Dutch or Vikings land on our doorstep, however the intervening Mongols and Celts respectively should prevent any units getting through from these countries

We are at war with Persia (MA with Dutch), England, Zulu and Hittites as well as America, Carthage, Netherlands and Scandinavia. None are willing to negotiate .

I checked the cost of a MA v Carthage (not sure we want to be tied to a MA) and basically everyone wanted all our gold with exception of Spain which only wanted 10gpt + 680g (and that would prevent our planned G&R). A MPP is presumably even more expensive (no-one was willing to be any more than insulted by our offer of all our gold and gpt).

Spoiler :

800AD cont
Peace with India for our WM + 399g
Check CA2
Spain lacks Maya contact - sell for 10g
Russians and Otto have contact with Incans for sale - cheapest is Otto - buy for26g
Incans backward, lack writing and math, only 5 towns -> gift up
Sell phil to Mayans for 10g
Sell Incan contact to Arabs (17g), Iroq (16g), Spain (13g), Rome (12g), France (TM+7g), Port (TM+4g)

IT
Rome destroyed by Spanish (ending our gpt payments)
4 Iro boats off Kappa
Matsuyama worker (Indian slave) -> wealth
Resistance ends
Queens pike -> MDI

810AD
Settle Echizen (we do have 1 turn in Mongol or Celt territory on way from NO to Queens)
Rush all remaining builds leaving us with just over 1360g
Revolt (go from -44gpt to +2gpt)
dow America - capture 4 slaves

IT
American galley off Theta (but island blockade filled)
Echizen pike (sorry it was a reg) -> cat
NO & Queens MDI -> MDI
DGM settler -> settler
6 workers complete (all Indian slaves), set to wealth ready for G&R

820AD
@ NY d 2 spears, no losses, capture cat - keep for now

All at war civs still refuse to acknowledge our envoy - no sign enemy units yet

Sell WM for small change
Lit to Byz for 17g

IT
Persia and Dutch MA against us
Iroq demand 88g (they have 2 units in our territory at NO and Echizen) - I cave in. (I am informed that my craven actions ensures the survival of my people - do I get a written guarantee )
Celt & England embargo us
We emerge in monarchy (I gave feudalism some thought. With our small towns feud gives much superior unit support (CA2 says 36gpt better) but being unable to cash rush defeats the purpose).

830AD
@ Boston d 2 spears, lose 2 MDI, redlined spear remains, one MDI promoted to 5/5
@ NY defeat spear dropped from a galley
More flogging off WM
No rushing this turn as all builds currently at empty

IT
Iroquois dont wish to renew rop, Mongols offer to at no cost - I accept as this allows transfer of units between NO and Queens.
India and Celts MA v Scandinavia
France and Celts MPP
A cav (? Carth) arrives 2 tiles outside NO

840AD
It is a Carth cav - they refuse to acknowledge our envoy still. Move reg pike from Echizen to NO so 2 units defending
@Boston eMDI d redlined spear -> MGL , Boston captured with 4 slaves and a cat.
Save game

PS I'll hand off here - sorry its in the middle of things, but I've a hectic week of RL coming up and might not get back to this for some time.

 

[Paul#42]

KC, what do you think?

 

[killercane]

I have to look at the save but we could use the MGL for a Palace in Chicago so the darn thing doesnt flip.

 

[Paul#42]

Wouldn't it be more efficient to use it for an army and let the palace jump for free (at the cost of a disbanded NO)?

I think an MDI-Army would be of tremendous value!

A disbanded NO would cost us a couple of produced units and a barracks.

 

[Andronicus]

Wouldn't it be more efficient to use it for an army and let the palace jump for free (at the cost of a disbanded NO)?

I think an MDI-Army would be of tremendous value!

A disbanded NO would cost us a couple of produced units and a barracks.

or a G&R NO - only costs us the rax

Agree with MDI army, I merely posed the Q incase I was missing something but cant think of any other valid use for it

More to the point is how do we use the MDI army - to defend NO and Echizen from Carthage cavs, or to ensure easy take of Chicago.

I'm not sure - I tend towards MDI army to take Chicago - we could form army next turn and take Chicago in following turn which means cats need to be shifted adj Chicago next turn. I saw no American offensive retaliation (they had LBs in past). I suspect they are building some now so perhaps units on Chicago border should be moved 1 tile from border before current turn ends, then single stack in American territory outside Chicago next turn with covering army. (also if New York left empty that might lure American units out into open).
The problem of defending our other towns from Carthage cavs could get too big if more cav turn up in next 2 turns, so if decision is to use MDI army for Carthage defense I wouldnt strongly object.

I agree with G&R NO as soon as capture Chicago provided ensure capital shifts there. If we have to disband NO earlier (to prevent Carthage capture and subsequent increase cost of peace) then capital should switch to Boston, which could in turn be used for next G&R to shiuft capital to Chicago

I'm assuming next G&R is with Spanish?

 

[Paul#42]

Remember G&R NO does not work with the capital - we'd have to rush the palace before.
(sorry if your suggestion implied that already)

Maybe we are lucky and the cav heads for empty Echizen instead of facing our vet pike
If Carthage sends too many (>2) cavs, we are in trouble anyway. Maybe our MDI-Army won't even help that. Cavs still can retreat from it.

If we use it for Chicago, it will definitely be used.
For defense of NO we have way lower odds of using it - and even bad odds that it will make the difference.

We could still be able to make peace with Carthage in which case the Army would stand idle.

I'd favor to use it where it makes the most probable impact - on Chicago.

 

[Andronicus]

Remember G&R NO does not work with the capital - we'd have to rush the palace before.
(sorry if your suggestion implied that already)

I forgot (must be Al Zheimer's confusing me)

Maybe we are lucky and the cav heads for empty Echizen instead of facing our vet pike
If Carthage sends too many (>2) cavs, we are in trouble anyway. Maybe our MDI-Army won't even help that. Cavs still can retreat from it.

How so? I thought a unit with 3 move would not retreat from a 2move unit - have I had this wrong all along?

If we use it for Chicago, it will definitely be used.
For defense of NO we have way lower odds of using it - and even bad odds that it will make the difference.

We could still be able to make peace with Carthage in which case the Army would stand idle.

I'd favor to use it where it makes the most probable impact - on Chicago.

You convince ne
MDI army to capture CHicago
Hold off Carthage with rushed units if poss - abandon if / when necess. (peace as soon as poss)