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SGOTM 14 - Ivan
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Othniel
fighting for Achsah
Ok, good dialogue. I'm gonna break my thoughts into two parts for clarity.
First up, dotmapping our empire. We need the long-term look so we can plan well. I like pictures so I did this graphically. Reference the attached photos adapted from Ivan's earlier pic.
Highlights:
I circled the main "good lands". Surprisingly, some of the best land is to the south near the Zulu. The plentiful flood plains, the hills, and the high-commerce luxeries (incense, silks) gives this area high-potential. The other good areas, as others have noted, are our current home area around Lisbon and the central strip of land stretching from Oporto to Mecca with its ivory. The third good area is to the far south-east. However, that third area seems to be too far from our current area to be really viable. It would force us to radically re-align our current core if we wanted to make it low-corrupt.
So, I see us as having a couple of main alternatives:
1) Keep palace where it is at, build the FP to the east near Oporto, have a mostly linear core of cities stretching from coast to coast. Everything north and south will be pretty corrupt pretty soon, although we should get a nice large core area.
2) Move the palace, probably via a FPJ, to the Oporto region. Then build our FP somewhere around Sagres. I think we could get a lot of low-corrupt cities in the fertile center circle around Oporto, and as long as we don't settle the center circle to densely, the southern circle around the FP should be fairly low corrupt still. With it's plentiful rivers and luxes, that area should be nice.
I went as far as rough-draft dotmapping the second alternative just to aid visualization. The red dots are our current cities and the black dot ( and white one) are proposed sites. Again, this was very rough, doesn't account for us capturing AI cities, yada yada, but should give an idea. We can tighten the dots in a little too as I used a far amount of CxxxC.
I'm also moving away from the ICS scheme, primarily after studying the greater region for a little while.I had forgotten this was a large map (stupid me 
) so corruption/ocn is higher than normal (I almost always play std map for solo play) It's a stnd map, nevermind, thanks ignas for setting me straight. I'm like ignas in that I normally use a very tight core, put it together quickly, and then pump the army men. But with this big map, I think spreading out a bit could really work.
The first attached photo is alternative 1, the second is the second.
So, whaddya think?
First up, dotmapping our empire. We need the long-term look so we can plan well. I like pictures so I did this graphically. Reference the attached photos adapted from Ivan's earlier pic.
Highlights:
I circled the main "good lands". Surprisingly, some of the best land is to the south near the Zulu. The plentiful flood plains, the hills, and the high-commerce luxeries (incense, silks) gives this area high-potential. The other good areas, as others have noted, are our current home area around Lisbon and the central strip of land stretching from Oporto to Mecca with its ivory. The third good area is to the far south-east. However, that third area seems to be too far from our current area to be really viable. It would force us to radically re-align our current core if we wanted to make it low-corrupt.
So, I see us as having a couple of main alternatives:
1) Keep palace where it is at, build the FP to the east near Oporto, have a mostly linear core of cities stretching from coast to coast. Everything north and south will be pretty corrupt pretty soon, although we should get a nice large core area.
2) Move the palace, probably via a FPJ, to the Oporto region. Then build our FP somewhere around Sagres. I think we could get a lot of low-corrupt cities in the fertile center circle around Oporto, and as long as we don't settle the center circle to densely, the southern circle around the FP should be fairly low corrupt still. With it's plentiful rivers and luxes, that area should be nice.
I went as far as rough-draft dotmapping the second alternative just to aid visualization. The red dots are our current cities and the black dot ( and white one) are proposed sites. Again, this was very rough, doesn't account for us capturing AI cities, yada yada, but should give an idea. We can tighten the dots in a little too as I used a far amount of CxxxC.
I'm also moving away from the ICS scheme, primarily after studying the greater region for a little while.
) so corruption/ocn is higher than normal (I almost always play std map for solo play)The first attached photo is alternative 1, the second is the second.
So, whaddya think?
Attachments
Othniel
fighting for Achsah
Part 2.
Short-term, going off of Ivan's list:
The next city location seem to be agreed upon:
1.) 2S of NC1 around the lake
2.) Replacement city for Iznik. I think I would want to settle 1SW of current Iznik locale.
Iron hookup:
Send one worker to iron ASAP. Hookup in around 7 turns. Make as many warriors as possible before then. Once hookup occurs, start moving warriors toward Iznik locale to upgrade and attack. Start building horses once Iron hooked up.
War plans sound good. Agree no MA against Ottos. Make peace with Arabs asap. Get Babs to DoW us, although be aware that "settler pair" actually has a couple or three military units with it. Get Russia into war with Babs for future WH.
Make workers like crazy from granary cities, make units elsewhere. I plan on doing curragh, worker, settler from Lisbon, and then start on more workers, but I'll decide as I play.
Anything major I'm missing?
Oh, this is premature because we need to get an MGL first and decide then what we want to do...but if we do get a quick MGL, I think an FP could be best use. As Lanzelot points out, armies will be less valuable on this map. The AI's are all small and fragmented, and transporting army will be an issue.
Short-term, going off of Ivan's list:
The next city location seem to be agreed upon:
1.) 2S of NC1 around the lake
2.) Replacement city for Iznik. I think I would want to settle 1SW of current Iznik locale.
Iron hookup:
Send one worker to iron ASAP. Hookup in around 7 turns. Make as many warriors as possible before then. Once hookup occurs, start moving warriors toward Iznik locale to upgrade and attack. Start building horses once Iron hooked up.
War plans sound good. Agree no MA against Ottos. Make peace with Arabs asap. Get Babs to DoW us, although be aware that "settler pair" actually has a couple or three military units with it. Get Russia into war with Babs for future WH.
Make workers like crazy from granary cities, make units elsewhere. I plan on doing curragh, worker, settler from Lisbon, and then start on more workers, but I'll decide as I play.
Anything major I'm missing?
Oh, this is premature because we need to get an MGL first and decide then what we want to do...but if we do get a quick MGL, I think an FP could be best use. As Lanzelot points out, armies will be less valuable on this map. The AI's are all small and fragmented, and transporting army will be an issue.
Othniel
fighting for Achsah
To re-summarize, the main reason I'm liking a wider city dotmap is because there are some really good lands just a little wider out. In fact we can use mostly CxxC spacing and get most of the good lands in our low-corrupt core. Even better, the AI's seem so weak and fragmented. I think once we get some units rolling, we can quickly raze/capture a large portion of the proposed core. As long as we have enough roads, we can still get our core together very fast. So spacing wider shouldn't hurt us too much time wise, and I think the increased productivity will payoff down the road. There is a lot of other landmasses to conquer still.
Oh, and if this seems like a bit of a flip-flop from my earlier ICS position, it is. I'm guilty. You guys made good points for wider-spreading.
EDIT: Wait, not to negate what I'm saying, but is this a large map or not??
Does this mean we get the less corruption of a large map or not?
Second EDIT: I will play in a few hours unless someone shouts at me to stop. We have time to discuss the dotmap and Palace jump possibility.
Oh, and if this seems like a bit of a flip-flop from my earlier ICS position, it is. I'm guilty
. You guys made good points for wider-spreading.EDIT: Wait, not to negate what I'm saying, but is this a large map or not??
AlanH said:
Does this mean we get the less corruption of a large map or not?
Second EDIT: I will play in a few hours unless someone shouts at me to stop. We have time to discuss the dotmap and Palace jump possibility.
Think we should have this continent under controll well before we get knights. Am leaning more to no research, take techs in peace deals, we can't kill them all any way. If that get's us all the way to astronomy great. If not then not. If will get us to pikes before we have this continent. We will need them to invade other islands. Besides, we can trade to all other civ's, maybe even gift scientific civs wich are tiny. For now we should also explore more. We only need the large islands for domination. Maybe some culture as well to grab maximum coast tiles.
We don't need a large core, would like 3-4 more cities, then switch to just workers, improve tiles and join them. We should get lot of slaves for most improving. There is not much room any way, could risk keeping cities, just get few libs should be enough, as 1 city civ's won't build a lot of culture either.
We don't need a large core, would like 3-4 more cities, then switch to just workers, improve tiles and join them. We should get lot of slaves for most improving. There is not much room any way, could risk keeping cities, just get few libs should be enough, as 1 city civ's won't build a lot of culture either.
Othniel
fighting for Achsah
Finished turnset
Highlights:
Babs built SoZ, Sumeria built Pyramids
Iron is hooked up, we have 8 swords right now
Razed Izmit, settler is on hand to build city 1SW of razed spot, next to lake
AI has CoL and Map Making
Ottos and Arabs are at war, not of our doing
Turnlog:
Handoff Notes:
We're starting to get a nice military force together, and there is a fair amount of cash in the bank if we want to rush some horses.
Pics from 1250 BC, up close and wide-angle.
Highlights:
Babs built SoZ, Sumeria built Pyramids
Iron is hooked up, we have 8 swords right now
Razed Izmit, settler is on hand to build city 1SW of razed spot, next to lake
AI has CoL and Map Making
Ottos and Arabs are at war, not of our doing
Turnlog:
Spoiler :
. Move a stack of 4 swords, 1 archer next to Izmit.Handoff Notes:
- We have a few swords near Oporto that haven't moved yet this turn.
- Persia and Japan have CoL and Maps. We can trade Japan Poly and Philo and get both CoL and Maps. I held off but it might be a decent trade. We still have a monopoly on Monarchy. There are also several trades available to get gold, mainly by giving up Philo, but I held off because Philo is still not well-known. Frankly, the AI tech pace is abominable for DG.
- Beware of Babs having the SoZ
We're starting to get a nice military force together, and there is a fair amount of cash in the bank if we want to rush some horses. Pics from 1250 BC, up close and wide-angle.
Attachments
eldar
ChiefTank
Nice going. Looks like we're in a strong position.
Whilst having Maps sounds good, I would hold off because we can build 2 curraghs for each galley, and upgrade later. Perhaps consider doing this now that we're building horses which won't be upgrading for a while. 15-20 galleys ought to be enough? That would mean needing up to 900g for curragh->galley upgrades, and of course a harbor.
We don't have a need for CoL right now so why bother?
If we're going to consider ship chaining (and I don't see why not...) don't forget to name each boat. Personally I go with a simple scheme of "Galley Alpha", "Galley Bravo", "Galley Charlie", etc.
Babs with SoZ and better land will probably steamroll Russia, or force them into early peace so I would watch out for a quick declaration from Russia in the next turnset. If it looks like the Babs are going to kill them, get ready with a city to gift to them?
Arabs are... pathetic. We can ignore them and take them at our leisure, perhaps last to ensure their survival.
Ottos look gassed already.
Zulu - well we don't know much yet!
Whilst having Maps sounds good, I would hold off because we can build 2 curraghs for each galley, and upgrade later. Perhaps consider doing this now that we're building horses which won't be upgrading for a while. 15-20 galleys ought to be enough? That would mean needing up to 900g for curragh->galley upgrades, and of course a harbor.
We don't have a need for CoL right now so why bother?
If we're going to consider ship chaining (and I don't see why not...) don't forget to name each boat. Personally I go with a simple scheme of "Galley Alpha", "Galley Bravo", "Galley Charlie", etc.
Babs with SoZ and better land will probably steamroll Russia, or force them into early peace so I would watch out for a quick declaration from Russia in the next turnset. If it looks like the Babs are going to kill them, get ready with a city to gift to them?
Arabs are... pathetic. We can ignore them and take them at our leisure, perhaps last to ensure their survival.
Ottos look gassed already.
Zulu - well we don't know much yet!
I. Larkin
Deity
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Was it posiible to kill Babylon Settler before they make a City? (Another reason for this war...)
Let's discuss it now...
Em and Coim has little space not to use GL for work.
another of the reason is communication. We may Road GL faster but do not road hills.
Why workers Mine unroaded Hill but Ignore Wine Hill?
What do you think about Lisbon build Harbor and grow to 8 (2WH) and pump Galleys and settlers ocasionaly? It may have easy 7 FPT, but may have 10 if we want...
We may trade CoL from Persia and MM for CoL from Zulu. I'd rather do not distribute Phylosophy...
What do you think about start Research of Currency? It will help us...
My dotMap out of date a bit but it is even more reason to have NC4
NC5 may be 1 NW, NC8 1W, but corruption approximately the same.
I think we will use NC4 area it for us, not give it to AIs.
Now I understand this word better...
Let's discuss it now...
Em and Coim has little space not to use GL for work.
another of the reason is communication. We may Road GL faster but do not road hills.
Why workers Mine unroaded Hill but Ignore Wine Hill?
What do you think about Lisbon build Harbor and grow to 8 (2WH) and pump Galleys and settlers ocasionaly? It may have easy 7 FPT, but may have 10 if we want...
We may trade CoL from Persia and MM for CoL from Zulu. I'd rather do not distribute Phylosophy...
What do you think about start Research of Currency? It will help us...
My dotMap out of date a bit but it is even more reason to have NC4
NC5 may be 1 NW, NC8 1W, but corruption approximately the same.
I think we will use NC4 area it for us, not give it to AIs.
Attachments
Since we are at war with babs any way, let's make her a priority. Nice to have free AC's. Too bad they are a bit far away. I'd take 1 more Ottoman city then sue for peace get city/tech. Then head for Babylon. On way back we can take out Russia and head east.
The next player should have fun.
Looks like that's going to be me...
Good job, Othniel!
I'll have to work late tonight, so I think this evening I will only study the position, read all your comments and then post my suggestions. Then you can discuss, and I will play tomorrow morning. (Wife and kids are gone for the weekend
)Lanzelot
I. Larkin
Deity
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I think discussion may take longer, then just this evening, but we will see.Looks like that's going to be me...
Good job, Othniel!
I'll have to work late tonight, so I think this evening I will only study the position, read all your comments and then post my suggestions. Then you can discuss, and I will play tomorrow morning. (Wife and kids are gone for the weekend
Lanzelot
It will be very difficult turnsets with 2 fronts wars + MA possible cancelation and third war with Russia may come at any moment...
I. Larkin
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1) Interesting idea... But may be then we swich to Currency to research? Marketplace in Lisbon may help. Who knows how long it will take. I d like to come to MidA with Monopoly to Trade.
Edit: Unfortunately we need Settlers and it is not enough Shields near Lisbon / Lagosfor Combo yet. Only Combria may swich to Curragh, but it is not much. However we loose nothing if not trade. |edit
2) I prefer Galley 1, galley 2....
3) We may make RoP with Russia and advance through and "help"...Also replace or settle nearby Akkad.
4) We need some Cities there for French invasion.Also Mekka is potentially good spot. We may demand it from Ottos if they capture it.
5) Hopefully... Lets raze Erdine and Izmit. Probably they give Uskudar for Peace...
6) They are weak, but have MMaking and Impies.
Othniel
fighting for Achsah
Unfortunately, not really. They were on a hill near Oporto, they looked like they were going to move to flat ground the next turn, and we only had one archer in reach plus a couple of warriors. So I waited hoping for a move to flat ground, but instead they moved back in the fog, out of reach, and next turn settled the city. Bummer I know.
Once that hill is mined, Guimaraes should be able to work it to get 10spt. I didn't improve the tiles around Lisbon much besides roads because I wasn't sure we wanted to stop the 4-turner just yet. We should have plenty of nearby workforce, though, if want to quickly make Lisbon into a shield-powerhouse by mining some more tile.
Othniel
fighting for Achsah
Active war with Babs combined with Rop w/ Russia is an interesting idea. It sounds kinda tricky, maybe a little too tricky as I bet there are a lot of gaps in the Russia road network especially down in the jungle near the Babs border.
Ottos do look gassed although I saw at least one sword near their border with Arabs, before I got our scout popped on accident. Oops... I was wondering if we should wait to attack Edrine until it grows to size 2 and we can capture it. The delay in our attack is probably not worth it though, but just a thought.
Ottos do look gassed although I saw at least one sword near their border with Arabs, before I got our scout popped on accident. Oops...
I was wondering if we should wait to attack Edrine until it grows to size 2 and we can capture it. The delay in our attack is probably not worth it though, but just a thought.
I. Larkin
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So you got some. But where are babs workers?
We are going raze it, but may be we will hold it few turns. It has some "culture", so it will not autorazed. Probably Ottos will regroup and return from Arabs. I'd send all swords to from Opporto to Incense Hills now to have big SoD. Also we may upgrade reg swords in Emeretia to attack silk City. I think those two are our goal + Uskudar as Peace deal.
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Othniel
fighting for Achsah
Oh, yeah sorry about the confusion. I killed the initial Babs settler pair. The slave workers are up near Emerita mining a BG. The Babs sent a second settler pair that appeared out of the fog in the hills near Oporto. That was the settler that built the new town.
I. Larkin
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OK, things to discuss:
1) To trade or not? Sure, better not to trade third level AA techs, and keep Monarchy Monopoly but it may not lasts forever. It may happend that Persia/Japan run away but others still will be backward. Now AIs islotated, but with MM they contact each other soon. First level tech (Alpa to Celts, say) we can trade.
2) How long continue this war with Ottos? Istambul is poor City, we need just space near erdine and Silk aria and USkudar as Eastern port.
3) War with Babylons. Better to go ASAP to get SOZ. But it is wery long way. RoP with Russia may be risky.
4) City planing: Any good reason to shift Inzik? How to resettle erdine area?
1) To trade or not? Sure, better not to trade third level AA techs, and keep Monarchy Monopoly but it may not lasts forever. It may happend that Persia/Japan run away but others still will be backward. Now AIs islotated, but with MM they contact each other soon. First level tech (Alpa to Celts, say) we can trade.
2) How long continue this war with Ottos? Istambul is poor City, we need just space near erdine and Silk aria and USkudar as Eastern port.
3) War with Babylons. Better to go ASAP to get SOZ. But it is wery long way. RoP with Russia may be risky.
4) City planing: Any good reason to shift Inzik? How to resettle erdine area?
