SGOTM 14 - Ivan

Ah, I see... why they whent so far?

They were captured on that side of the river. At the time we had a lack of workers up near Emerita. I think there was only a 1 turn lag time before they were working on some project.

What was the reason left some swords in Opporto?

Indecision. I wasn't sure we wanted to move toward Edrine just yet, or maybe we would want to move to raze that Babs city, or maybe wait until one more turn when the last upgraded warrior can join. So I left them alone, but two of the three have movement left and the next player can move them on the preflight if so chosen.

Nc1 may be another SF (or combo) if irrigate GL and Build Granary.
I think we should irrigate more, it is many bonus hills that we can work on.

NC1? :confused: Isn't that Guimaraes, our best horse producer? Yep, I agree that we should get some irrigation going up north by Emerita/Coimbra.

Another SF would be good, especially if we want to take Lisbon off that duty. The best spots for these new factories might be the city that replaces Izmit and the the area around Edrine. Lots of good grasslands up there.

We do have around 25 workers counting slaves, but another worker factory in the north would be good too. Less lag time from Lagos.
 
Ok, after looking at the save and seeing your ideas here, I propose the following short-term plan:

  • I think, Babylon is out-of-reach at the moment: our swordsmen are on the opposite side of the continent, and marching them down to Babylon will take ages! Instead I would like to use them were they are. Even if we get MM (which would disable the plan with upgrading Curragh->Galley), it is doubtful, whether the Russian road-network is usable (and free of Russian units marching south).
  • Instead I'll move 2-3 swords to Izmit, raze it and use the settler, which is currently close to "former Iznik", to settle 1S of silks. The next settler from Lisbon can then fill the gap between Emerita and Oporto.
  • Move the rest of the swords to Edrine and take it. If it's size 2 by then, we may keep it, if it fits into our plans for the FP (see below). Hopefully there will be a road from Edrine to Istanbul, so the swords will move to Istanbul quickly, take it and keep it.
  • At this point we can make peace with Ottomans and demand Uskudar. This will leave the Ottomans with one single town in the tundra up north. (It can't be seen at the moment, but it must be there, because of the border outline.) If they have two unknown towns up there, we may even get the other one in the peace deal as well?!
  • Meanwhile I assemble our horses in Leiria. Once there is a sufficient stack (5?), they will move on the mountain N of Akkad and then take and keep Akkad. (There shouldn't be a flip risk, it's so far from Babylon and it will grow quickly with our own natives.)
  • At that time we can perhaps get Uruk in a peace deal? (If necessary, wait for the MA with Russia to expire.) Once our swords have returned from Istanbul, we invade Russia (perhaps they'll even have broken the MA by then). (If Russia breaks the MA before our swords are back from Istanbul, I'll upgrade our 5 reg warriors for defence.) Russia will be squeezed between us and Babylon, so we should be able to take it quickly. And then our forces just continue to Babylon (filling in one or two missing roads, if necessary).
  • The unit upkeep is quite high already: 16gpt! Therefore I want to rush Oporto and Sagres to 7+ asap. NC1 will grow by itself. Oporto and NC1 will produce 10spt soon. Should we also let Lisbon grow, too, and only pump an occasional worker from there? For this we need to connect the silks asap.
  • And we need Marketplaces! They are the strongest improvement. The sooner we get them, the better. (Especially as we already have 4 luxuries!) I agree on starting Currency now. High Priority?
  • We can get some money from trading: sell Writing to China, Alpha to Mayas(?). And why not give Philosophy to Hittites for 77g? Philosophy is cheap, so the AIs will soon have it anyway.
  • The curragh in the west obviously goes west (and the decides whether going N or S looks more promising). But what is the curragh at Calcutta doing? I think the route north is ocean, so I would send it to Tikal and then move it north along that coast.

Now to the FP: I favor Othniel's first option. I think the "Helium-Core" Lisbon-Oporto will be productive much much earlier than anything else. (And as SirPleb once said: in C3C the location of the FP is not that important, more important is to get it early!) Attached is, how a core around Oporto could look like. (Instead of New City3 we may keep Edrine, instead of New City 5 we may get Uruk.) If this looks ok, I would start a pre-build soon. That way we don't depend on a leader.

Emerita looks a bit "misplaced", doesn't it? Or we'll need to build a Library and Harbor in Coimbra and have it use coast tiles. Then Emerita can use the hill and most GL tiles.

Good night, Lanzelot
 
NC1? Isn't that Guimaraes, our best horse producer? Yep, I agree that we should get some irrigation going up north by Emerita/Coimbra.
Yes, it is. It has 4 fpt now and with GL irrigated will be 5 fpt. With mine on hills it will be enough for 4 turner. It has good location near center of Island. Anyhow, we may pump 1 worker not to overrun size 6...
Another SF would be good, especially if we want to take Lisbon off that duty. The best spots for these new factories might be the city that replaces Izmit and the the area around Edrine. Lots of good grasslands up there.
Yes, I also think that to work on mined hills we need irrigated GL.
Another SF would be good, especially if we want to take Lisbon off that duty. The best spots for these new factories might be the city that replaces Izmit and the the area around Edrine. Lots of good grasslands up there.
Problem that it is too far away.
 
Lanzelot, I will try to explain whats wrong, but wait to play, please.
 
PS: I will take the sword from Emerita and one more to Iznik. The other go to Edrine -> Istanbul. Istanbul is no good land, but I'd like to reduce the Ottomans to size 1 right away, then we never need to send units there again. (Finish the job while we're at it.) War with Babylon is not that urgent, let the Russians and the Babylonians first kill each other a bit...

And I forgot: should I buy CoL from Japan/Persia for Poly and MM from Zulus for CoL?

Lanzelot
 
And I forgot: should I buy CoL from Japan/Persia for Poly and MM from Zulus for CoL?
It may be a possibylity (Persia ask Poly + 7 for CoL) and Zulu see CoL as "monopoly.". But do we want to? It will cansel Curraghs upgrade plan. (Not sure, that this plan (upgrade) is really good. Problem is that we pay for keeping these Galleys..

Nc3 NC4 at your diagran good, other not really.
 
But what is the curragh at Calcutta doing? I think the route north is ocean, so I would send it to Tikal and then move it north along that coast.

No need to go to Tikai, it may cross the see 2 East.
 
Ok, after looking at the save and seeing your ideas here, I propose the following short-term plan:
• I think, Babylon is out-of-reach at the moment: our swordsmen are on the opposite side of the continent, and marching them down to Babylon will take ages! Instead I would like to use them were they are. Even if we get MM (which would disable the plan with upgrading Curragh->Galley), it is doubtful, whether the Russian road-network is usable (and free of Russian units marching south).
It is correct but any good idea how to get it faster may help.
• Instead I'll move 2-3 swords to Izmit, raze it and use the settler, which is currently close to "former Iznik", to settle 1S of silks. The next settler from Lisbon can then fill the gap between Emerita and Oporto.
Please, settle on Iznik first. It will reduce units’ upkeep. Third settler may go to near silk area. We will need second to “replace “ Erdine or settle nearby.
• Move the rest of the swords to Edrine and take it. If it's size 2 by then, we may keep it, if it fits into our plans for the FP (see below). Hopefully there will be a road from Edrine to Istanbul, so the swords will move to Istanbul quickly, take it and keep it.
I wrote, that we may keep it sometime, but because of our low culture better to replace and expand Opporto border.
Probably we may take Istambul, but then it will be a risk that Arabs kill the rst of Ottos. Also I want swords back ASAP for war vs Babylons.
• At this point we can make peace with Ottomans and demand Uskudar. This will leave the Ottomans with one single town in the tundra up north. (It can't be seen at the moment, but it must be there, because of the border outline.) If they have two unknown towns up there, we may even get the other one in the peace deal as well?!
Good, if it happened during your turns, but as I wrote Silk and Erdine + Uskudar is enough.

• Meanwhile I assemble our horses in Leiria. Once there is a sufficient stack (5?), they will move on the mountain N of Akkad and then take and keep Akkad. (There shouldn't be a flip risk, it's so far from Babylon and it will grow quickly with our own natives.)
This City may Autorazed, but it is OK. Don't foget to build road toward there.
• At that time we can perhaps get Uruk in a peace deal? (If necessary, wait for the MA with Russia to expire.) Once our swords have returned from Istanbul, we invade Russia (perhaps they'll even have broken the MA by then). (If Russia breaks the MA before our swords are back from Istanbul, I'll upgrade our 5 reg warriors for defence.) Russia will be squeezed between us and Babylon, so we should be able to take it quickly. And then our forces just continue to Babylon (filling in one or two missing roads, if necessary).
Even if Russia quit it will be better to stay at war vs babs for WH.
• The unit upkeep is quite high already: 16gpt! Therefore I want to rush Oporto and Sagres to 7+ asap. NC1 will grow by itself. Oporto and NC1 will produce 10spt soon. Should we also let Lisbon grow, too, and only pump an occasional worker from there? For this we need to connect the silks asap.
We need more settlers and it is not efficient to pump it from size 7 Cities. But we may reconsider later. In your turnset, please, keep all below 6, just pump workers and settlers.
• And we need Marketplaces! They are the strongest improvement. The sooner we get them, the better. (Especially as we already have 4 luxuries!) I agree on starting Currency now. High Priority?
This is correct, but I prefer to switch to “full speed research” when we build Library in Lisbon. It is not in your turns. But I may consider some (30-40% Sci) for Currency, say. But I’d like to know others opinion.
• We can get some money from trading: sell Writing to China, Alpha to Mayas(?). And why not give Philosophy to Hittites for 77g? Philosophy is cheap, so the AIs will soon have it anyway.
It is a very cheap trades, Alpha to Celts much better (72g). Certainly not trade Philosophy.
• The curragh in the west obviously goes west (and the decides whether going N or S looks more promising). But what is the curragh at Calcutta doing? I think the route north is ocean, so I would send it to Tikal and then move it north along that coast.
Yes, along the coast North. But there is shorter way.

Now to the FP: I favor Othniel's first option. I think the "Helium-Core" Lisbon-Oporto will be productive much much earlier than anything else. (And as SirPleb once said: in C3C the location of the FP is not that important, more important is to get it early!) Attached is, how a core around Oporto could look like. (Instead of New City3 we may keep Edrine, instead of New City 5 we may get Uruk.) If this looks ok, I would start a pre-build soon. That way we don't depend on a leader.
FP itself reduces corruption in the FP City also. So it should be good City. In visible area it is Mekka , or may somewhere IBT Novgorod -- Akkad.

Emerita looks a bit "misplaced", doesn't it?
Yes, so we “care about that”.

Good night.
 
IMPORTANT NOTE

Please can you stop playing, and let me know when I can edit your save to fix the Carrack movement? I'll try to give you a fast turn-round and let you know when you can continue.
 
Hello Ivan,
I understood most of your suggestions. A few questions:

Probably we may take Istambul, but then it will be a risk that Arabs kill the rst of Ottos. Also I want swords back ASAP for war vs Babylons.
Good, if it happened during your turns, but as I wrote Silk and Erdine + Uskudar is enough.
If there is a road from Edrine to Istanbul, I would really like to continue and finish the job while we have the necessary units up there. If we move the units to somewhere else, before the Ottomans are finished, we'll have to send some units back there again at some later time. Won't this loose some time? The remaining Ottoman city will be far up north, a long way from Mecca, and if they don't make peace soon, we could renew our war with Arabia to distract them from the Ottomans?
I think, the Babylonian war will be quite "passive" for some time, because of the distance. So perhaps it is even an option to go from Istanbul on to Mecca and lead the war with Babylon only with new units that are currently being built in our core? (In that case we might need a couple of new swords.)

Or perhaps an alternative plan may be: turn around after Edrine is taken, trade Map Making, build 3-4 galleys and ship 6-8 Swords directly to Babylon! How long would that take with Differential Naval Movement? (Have no experience with DNM, so can't really judge how it works, before I've tried it out...)

This City may Autorazed, but it is OK.
My idea was: it is working a flood plain, so it will probably grow, before our horses are ready. And if not, just delay 1-2 turns until it has grown. We still have room to settle (after Ottoman's war), so any settler we save should be good?!

We need more settlers and it is not efficient to pump it from size 7 Cities. But we may reconsider later. In your turnset, please, keep all below 6, just pump workers and settlers.
Ok, I'll prevent Guimaraes from growing and turn it into a SF.

It is a very cheap trades, Alpha to Celts much better (72g). Certainly not trade Philosophy.
Do I have a corrupted save file, or is there something wrong with my C3C version? I can't see the Celts, neither in the F4 screen nor in CivAssist??
Edit: ah, I see, we just met them this turn and contact still needs to be established...

Yes, along the coast North. But there is shorter way.
I did not take Differential Movement into account...


FP itself reduces corruption in the FP City also. So it should be good City. In visible area it is Mekka , or may somewhere IBT Novgorod -- Akkad.
I think the problem with these two areas is, that it will take much much longer to get them productive. Even if the area around Edrine is slightly worse, we'll have it productive really soon, and that should more than compensate, shouldn't it? How about a FP 1SW of where I have New City 3 in my map? It can work on at least 2BGs, 2 Incense hills and an Iron hill. That should be a good location too. However, the drawback is, that there is no room for good cities north of it.
The drawback of a FP between Novgorod -- Akkad is, that we would have to chop a lot of jungle to get Novgorod productive. Do we really want to do this?

Why is New City 5 in my map so bad? It can work 3BGs and 2 hills. And if the FP is close (e.g 1SW of New City 3), it should be ok?!

Please, settle on Iznik first.
Directly on Iznik? CivAssist tells me, it's 39% corrupted. If I settle, where the settler currently is, it's 33%, and at New City 1 it's 21%. Isn't NC 1 still a good free spot within our first ring?

Suggestion: should I remove the NCX-prefix from Lagos and Guimaraes, so we can easier discuss new cities?

Lanzelot
 
I have edited the latest team files to give the Carrack the correct movement points. Please make sure you download your new save from the Progress and Results page before you continue ... unless you prefer slow Carracks :p.
 
Hello Ivan,
I understood most of your suggestions. A few questions:


If there is a road from Edrine to Istanbul, I would really like to continue and finish the job while we have the necessary units up there. If we move the units to somewhere else, before the Ottomans are finished, we'll have to send some units back there again at some later time. Won't this loose some time? The remaining Ottoman city will be far up north, a long way from Mecca, and if they don't make peace soon, we could renew our war with Arabia to distract them from the Ottomans?
Istambul has 100+ culture, so even with roads it is long time to go. We will gain very little (some tundra) but may loose some swords. We need establish relaible path to Uskudar. We plan to capture Colosus and this may be priority,

I think, the Babylonian war will be quite "passive" for some time, because of the distance. So perhaps it is even an option to go from Istanbul on to Mecca and lead the war with Babylon only with new units that are currently being built in our core? (In that case we might need a couple of new swords.)
Because of SoZ it is a priority...
Or perhaps an alternative plan may be: turn around after Edrine is taken, trade Map Making, build 3-4 galleys and ship 6-8 Swords directly to Babylon! How long would that take with Differential Naval Movement? (Have no experience with DNM, so can't really judge how it works, before I've tried it out...)
Really, we need to see how fast you will go. If "No resistance" from Ottos we may capture Istambul and gift to Russia.

My idea was: it is working a flood plain, so it will probably grow, before our horses are ready. And if not, just delay 1-2 turns until it has grown. We still have room to settle (after Ottoman's war), so any settler we save should be good?!
They are at desptism so as it grow they will poprush Unit. But we may catch moment, if we want "oppresed City".


Ok, I'll prevent Guimaraes from growing and turn it into a SF.
Is it enough time to Short -rush Granary? I am affraid not. So better Horse, Worker, Granary in NC1.




The drawback of a FP between Novgorod -- Akkad is, that we would have to chop a lot of jungle to get Novgorod productive. Do we really want to do this?
After careful inspection I calculated that best place for FP is 1NW from Moscow. Problem with FP that we can't jump it, so let not to rush with Buildup.
Why is New City 5 in my map so bad? It can work 3BGs and 2 hills. And if the FP is close (e.g 1SW of New City 3), it should be ok?!
Well, not that bad, but it will take time. Let babs have this land for a while.

Directly on Iznik? CivAssist tells me, it's 39% corrupted. If I settle, where the settler currently is, it's 33%, and at New City 1 it's 21%. Isn't NC 1 still a good free spot within our first ring?
What version of Civ assis you use? How you calculate corrupton of Pland City?
(I don't know, and do with formulas.) If we settle where Settler is we will incrase corruption in Sagers, good productive City, important for wars. Also, overlap with Em, Combr and Opporto will be higher. They all potentially 12 size cities but it will not be room for them to grow.

Suggestion: should I remove the NCX-prefix from Lagos and Guimaraes, so we can easier discuss new cities?

Lanzelot
OK for Lagos , but not for Gemoraids. I can't spell it right.
 
So is the current plan to have both Lisbon and NC1-Guimar run as SFs for the time being, or are we going to let Lisbon grow and produce units and have NC1 be the sole settler factory? I'm a little confused by the matter.

If we intend to let both of them be SF for a while, I must note that we really just got started with producing units in NC1 and now we are intending to build a granary there. Seems like the waste of a barracks. I'm also wondering if we need 2 settler factories when we we barely have an army. Taking NC1 off military duty means we only have one decent unit producer, Oporto, for a while as the other barracks cities are still small.

Or, if the plan is to let Lisbon grow and let NC1 build the settlers, I'm wondering why. Currently Lisbon can work most of it's high commerce tiles and still be a SF. The main advantage to moving the settler factory to NC1 seems to be that it is more central, but that's seems like a very small advantage. Again we'd have to build a granary and waste a barracks. And after all, most of our planned expansion is north and south right now, and Lisbon can reach those places almost as fast.

So, what am I missing here? Not trying to be critical, just want to understand the plan a little better.

Onto other matters...

Settling on the hill, on the former site of Iznik, is fine. I would definitely, as Ivan says, use the nearby settler for this purpose first, and go after the silks later. Moving that settler around too much is a big waste.

When you attack Izmit, take 3-4 units. Each city will be probably defended by two units, likely reg spears, so taking only two units is way too risky. Three is ok, four is better.

I agree with Lanzelot that going after Babs right now is a waste. SoZ is important, but I don't think it's critical enough to drop everything and go after it immediately. I say let's expand more in our local area. We still have 15+ turns on deals with Arabs and Russia, so we can't attack them for a while. Instead, let's clean up the Ottos, take out the 2 close by Babs cities, and maybe go after the nearest Zulu city. Get our forces poised to invade Russia in force once our MA expires. Take our leftover units and push toward Mecca, the Arabs should offer little resistance as they are very small.

I don't like the idea of sending a galley force toward the Babs. It would take too long, and waste lots of resources in building a fleet now. I say let's be ready to blitz through Russia. I bet that will get us to the SoZ in a reasonably short timeframe.

Oh, and use horses and don't build more swords or upgrade reg warriors. If you get in a pinch on defense, cash-rush a horse or even a spear.

Speaking of rushing things, we still have quite a bit of gold and have a decent income. Unless we plan to proactively cash-rush an army, why don't we just go full research toward Currency right now and then turn research off again? I know we won't have a Lib in Lisbon yet, but is that critical? Getting Currency now may give us the key to trading for Construction in case Monarchy gets learned by another AI too quickly.

For the FP, be aware that most of the land through Russia has forest, no jungle. So we won't have tons of jungle to chop. However, I am curious how Ivan calculates Moscow as the best place for the FP? Wanna share any secrets, Ivan? :) Just eyeballing it, I thought that the Novgorod area looked the best, or even further north near Sagres. I would think the rank corruption would knock out the area benefits of an FP if it's as far south as Moscow.

And if we do make a southern FP, are planning on jumping palace to Oporto?

Okay, that's my thoughts. Hopefully I was clear.
 
Ok, I'm about to start soon... Here's one more sanity-check, before I do:

Ivan: I'm using CivAssistII version 2.0.2387.

Istambul has 100+ culture, so even with roads it is long time to go.
But I will be fast on the way back...!

I agree with Lanzelot that going after Babs right now is a waste.
I'm glad that at least Othniel agrees with me... I know, SoZ is important, but I think, with the resources we currently have at our command, it is unrealistic to think we can get it now. We may easily "over-reach" and end in a catastrophe. I think we should not let ourselves be "blinded" by the temptation to get SoZ right away. Just ignore it for now and continue with our "natural" strategy. SoZ will then fall into our hands like a ripe fruit. The "natural" target would be Russia, because
  • they are the next neighbor
  • they are currently being "softened" by the Babs... :D
So I suggest to
  • finish Osmania now. We can then still decide, whether we need to march the remaining swords back as reinforcement for the Russian front, or whether we "bring them into position" for a quick strike to Mecca, once that peace deal expires
  • meanwhile build a new horse force in the main core and get ready for the march on Moscow. If Russia breaks the MA, we are prepared, and if not, we'll have enough units to steam-roller them after the MA expires.
That will achieve two objectives: clear the area for the southern FP and make the road free for a quick march to Babylon.

This brings me to the second point:
If we intend to let both of them be SF for a while, I must note that we really just got started with producing units in NC1 and now we are intending to build a granary there. Seems like the waste of a barracks. I'm also wondering if we need 2 settler factories when we we barely have an army. Taking NC1 off military duty means we only have one decent unit producer, Oporto, for a while as the other barracks cities are still small.
I agree with that. Do we really need that many settlers now? I think we currently need settlers for
  • completing our core/FP area
  • getting the silks
  • reducing unit upkeep
So that is about 4-5 more settlers. Lisbon can handle that. We should not build more than that, because
  • at the moment we don't need them. Outer towns will be totally corrupt anyway.
  • While there are still 3 fully functional Demigod AIs close by, it is risky to "over-stretch". We can't protect a huge area at the moment. First break all resistance on our continent and then fill the land.
  • It will delay our unit production and consequently delay our FP and SoZ, because it will take longer to conquer Russia and Babylonia.
For that reason I vote for letting Guimarães (hoorey, I spelled it correctly! :lol:) produce horsemen at 10spt. Later, when we have conquered our continent, we can still reduce it below 7 and run it as a SF for a while. (Or rush our settlers close to where they are needed.)

For the FP, be aware that most of the land through Russia has forest, no jungle.
Novgorod has 6 jungle squares! That takes ages. But anyway: I agree with having an FP in the Moscow area, but I would not yet completely drop the idea of the Edrine area.

I'll play slowly and carefully now, because I think we don't have consensus on a couple of points yet. Please keep comments coming (especially those other experienced players, who have not given their opinion yet!) I'll check here once in a while. Most open points can still be decided later, but the question of Guimarães is critical and demands a decision now!

Regards, Lanzelot
 
PS: and do we want Map Making from Zululand now or not?

My personal opinion is that we don't need it yet, and it'll almost certainly be cheaper later.
 
My personal opinion is that we don't need it yet, and it'll almost certainly be cheaper later.
I have opposite, "personal opinion": now it is obvious combination that give us 2 tech (CoL and MM) for just Poly+7 g, but who knows about future.
Also we will not waste our research to MMking if swich to Currancy now.
 
meanwhile build a new horse force in the main core and get ready for the march on Moscow. If Russia breaks the MA, we are prepared, and if not, we'll have enough units to steam-roller them after the MA expires.
It will not work MA+Peace treaty effectively 40 turn deal. So we either make them declare or have to fight together.
I'm glad that at least Othniel agrees with me... I know, SoZ is important, but I think, with the resources we currently have at our command, it is unrealistic to think we can get it now. We may easily "over-reach" and end in a catastrophe. I think we should not let ourselves be "blinded" by the temptation to get SoZ right away. Just ignore it for now and continue with our "natural" strategy. SoZ will then fall into our hands like a ripe fruit. The "natural" target would be Russia, because
Nobody recomend sail to Babylon right now. We simply discussed how to go there in the best way...
So that is about 4-5 more settlers. Lisbon can handle that.
I thought SF im Gemoraids option "for future". But have opportunity "open " we could do 1 worker.

Novgorod has 6 jungle squares! That takes ages. But anyway: I agree with having an FP in the Moscow area, but I would not yet completely drop the idea of the Edrine area.

FP is long term investment, but silk is a good think. I'll prepare calculations with "pictures".
 
Originally Posted by Othniel
For the FP, be aware that most of the land through Russia has forest, no jungle.
Novgorod has 6 jungle squares!

Typo!:p I had meant there were more forests than jungle down there, not that there were no jungle.

But there really is 6 jungle, eh?

Oh, and I agree we should do the Map Making/CoL trade now. The price is cheap.


EDIT: @DWetzel: totally off topic, but are you by chance related to Yahoo sports columnist Dan Wetzel? Or are you him? :faint: You don't have to tell if you don't want. ;)
 
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