SGOTM 14 - Ivan

[Lanzelot]

Good that you are online, I.Larkin. I'm currently playing (could not start this morning, because wife&kids came back earlier than expected...) and I have a question: Persia just got Philo (and they started the Mausoleum), and I have the feeling, that sooner or later others will also get it, and we'll loose our trade opportunities. At the moment I could cash Philo in for 82g from Hittites and 71g from Japan. If we wait to long, they will get it anyway and we miss 153g...
What is your reason for not trading it? Keep the Mausoleum for our cheap GA? By the time we capture Paris, someone will certainly have build it anyway!?

Regards, Lanzelot

 

[Lanzelot]

Ok, it's getting late now anyway, so I stopped playing. Will finish tomorrow evening. Two questions for you all to settle till then:

• Can trade Philo to Hittites, Japan and Germans for a total of 218g now. I'm really tempted and don't know, how long this opportunity will remain.
• Worker in Gui is due next interturn. Now is the last chance to change it back to horseman and let Gui grow to 7. I think we should do it. If we really need Gui as a SF later, it can just build a settler in 3 turns and drop back to size 5.

Good night, Lanzelot

 

[DWetzel]

I'd say take the cash, and I don't think it's close.

The other one is a closer choice, but I'd be inclined to let it grow personally--I think we need military more than settlers right now, to fully subdue our island. We can claim that land soon enough.

 

[eldar]

Take the cash.

 

[nerovats]

Military is more important now. Getting cash will help what but have no civ now to check. I still think we need strong core, doesn't have to be that big. Get couple of cities productive and preferable over sive 6. Also still think pointy stick research will do.

 

[I. Larkin]

Ok, it's getting late now anyway, so I stopped playing. Will finish tomorrow evening. Two questions for you all to settle till then:

• Can trade Philo to Hittites, Japan and Germans for a total of 218g now. I'm really tempted and don't know, how long this opportunity will remain.
• Worker in Gui is due next interturn. Now is the last chance to change it back to horseman and let Gui grow to 7. I think we should do it. If we really need Gui as a SF later, it can just build a settler in 3 turns and drop back to size 5.

Good night, Lanzelot

OK, take cash. I hesitate about worker/horse in Guima, but looks that team in general want Horse. So military. How long to Currency?

 

[I. Larkin]

FP problem:​

Common belief (probably come from Sir Pleb) that FP in C3C is not important where located but important is to get it asap. This statement correct only “approximately”. Yes, it is not that strong as in PTW, and normally there is no second core around FP in C3C.
This is because of Rank corruption in the C3C is much higher then in the PTW. FP in the C3C reduces Rank Corruption on 37.5% in ALL Cities and because of that it has tremendous benefit.
However, other two features of FP are often overlooked. First, in FP City Corruption ALWAYS less then 80% and, therefore, it is reasonable to put it to remote high Productive/Commerce City (with Colossus or Iron Work, say). Second, FP still reduces distance corruption. This is small effect in comparison with Rank corruption reduction, but in total it may benefit approximately 4.5% in total like extra City 25 vs. 24. “Optimal City placement” for that are two core disks with FP and Palace in the center, but nobody play like this (only on Archy map it may happen “naturally” but not on our map.)
In normal game like our Corruption rings looks similar to distance ring from Palace as Rank dominates and the rest is perturbation, but I took this perturbation into account.
In calculation for our game I assumed that we still avoid ICS and play as before having 1.0 City per distance ring in average. Calculations are approximate in the sense that I take average values over ring and therefore get “average” value of corruption. Distance calculated in ”Fraxis metric” , dealing with that I notice that in “Fraxis World” constant Pi is 8/3 or 2.66…, contrary to normal world, where it is 3.14159…, but it is Fraxis, you know...
OK, back to our Business. In pre – FP/ Courthouses era when Nopt is only 14 things are simple: Corruption grow linearly with distance and I plot contour plots with levels 0.5 (plain blue) and 0.9 (plain red) and 0.3 and 0.7 IBT, black. Then variants:
Realistic, natural:
FP in NC7. (It is central location of Continent, Iron hill nearby, initial corruption small&#8230. After FP comleated we will have Blue and Orange lines if still have 1 City per Ring, (16-17 Cities) but after ICS productive Aria will shrink and partially may be recoverd with Corthouses (Dark blue and dark brown red). This Variant will give very little, actually as Corruption in NC7 will changed from 30% to 20% only, distance reduction will be “minimal” because of close position to Lisbon.

Two “fantastic variants”
1) FP in Mekka (next picture). You see main effect is large 50% zone in NC5, Nc6, Nc7 triangle. There is now such at West, and this is the only difference generated by FP location. Few shortcomings are that it is Tundra at North and Zulu at south, and no fresh water, but it is solvable. But it needs MGL because poor shields.
2) Third Picture is FP in Moscow (more precise 1NW from M). It is forest silk, River, Iron Hill, BGL. This plase is better then Mekka and probably possible to build by bricks, but unlikely. Then we can consider Oporto Palace jump (next picture), Lisbon will suffer little, but NC5, Nc6, NC7 triangle and partially Mekka will benefit. Or even consider jump to Mekka if France has the same land as SGTOM-12.

Finally, most realistic compromise is FP in NC8. This City will have many hills around and Flood plains to support, it is very realistically to build it in 15 turns if send many workers to mine hills. Then we may consider palace jump to Opporto, (shown on the picture) but I am not sure that we want to. Opporto at the same distance as Lisbon from NC8, so picture go by “rotation”. In principle we may turn “combat city” in America and Celt to productive part of core.
To summarize we continue wide non-dense settlement in ring 7 -15 (preferably 11-15) to have 13-15 Cities and build up FP in NC8 but may reconsider if we get MGL. After that we finish ring 15 with density 1.8 per ring. That is 27 productive Cities (mega core) with courthouses where necessary. They assumed to be size 12 in remote future. The rest (if we want to) will be specialists farm.

Another question:
While we research currency construction may be available soon. Will we trade it and Gift Scientific civs to MA? Or wait and see?

 

[DWetzel]

I can't see how increasing the tech pace helps us, really. I'd rather everyone stays as small and as unproductive as possible. I'm prepared to be told why this is a bad idea, though.

 

[DWetzel]

EDIT: @DWetzel: totally off topic, but are you by chance related to Yahoo sports columnist Dan Wetzel? Or are you him? You don't have to tell if you don't want.

Nope, no relation. I get asked that a lot though!

 

[I. Larkin]

I can't see how increasing the tech pace helps us, really. I'd rather everyone stays as small and as unproductive as possible. I'm prepared to be told why this is a bad idea, though.

Question here: for few reasons we may want Chivalry as soon as possible. We may get Mono and Feo from Sci Civs and steam others. May be it will be enough for domination.
Also when AI have nothing to build they build units like crazy.

 

[Othniel]

Thanks for the FP explanation, Ivan. I think I got most of it. My gut feeling had been that an FP in NC8 with a possible palace jump to Oporto as being optimal, and your calcs seem to support that. The main thing I was a little fuzzy on from your explanation was your city placement pattern. Are you using CxxC spacing for the rest of the core, or are you anticipating CxxxC spacing?

Keeping tech pace slow is a good goal, imo, but if there a bunch of gold for a well-known cheap tech such as Philo, I say take the trade. As far as gifting SCI civs into the MA, I think it depends on the timing. Right now, I don't think we are ready to make much use out of Chivalry. But if in 10-20 turns when we have more of an army, doing the gift and blitzing to Chiv might make more sense.

@DWetzel: LOL. I didn't realize Dan Wetzel was so well known. I'll stop bugging you about it now.

 

[I. Larkin]

Are you using CxxC spacing for the rest of the core, or are you anticipating CxxxC spacing?

It does not really matter for corruption. Things is that "at final stage " in should not be more then 18 Cities in dark blue core. They must be well productive and probably any should have 12 tiles for Labors. So IBT ring 1 and 2 we may place 13 Cities. (If we defenetly consider jump it is around Opporto this rings around Opporto).
It is not that many room in narrow rings, and we have to look for each City place individually.

But 60% area will shift from Novgorod.
Because of that Moscow better then NC8.

Any chanses that Lanzelot finish before his midnight?

Keeping tech pace slow is a good goal, imo, but if there a bunch of gold for a well-known cheap tech such as Philo, I say take the trade. As far as gifting SCI civs into the MA, I think it depends on the timing. Right now, I don't think we are ready to make much use out of Chivalry. But if in 10-20 turns when we have more of an army, doing the gift and blitzing to Chiv might make more sense

Agree with that.

 

[Lanzelot]

I finished, 23:53... But too late now to type my turn log. I'll post it tomorrow morning before work. I'll upload my save now in case you guys over in America want to look at it.
(Hope I didn't mess it up too much... )

Cheers, Lanzelot

Here just a quick headline: I got CoL and MM for Poly and sometime later I got Cur for Poly&Writing... Amazing, isn't it? Construction is available from Babylon Didn't want to break our last two turns of the alliance with Russia, so we are not yet medieval...
The Great Lighthouse was build very close to us in Japan!

 

[Lanzelot]

Turn log:

Spoiler :

0. Finish leftovers from 1250BC
Contact Celts, sell Alpha for 72g
Set research to Currency at 50% (Total 18turns)
Rename NC1 to "Gui" (that should be easy to spell... ), NC2 to Lagos.
Upgrade warrior in Emerita.
Buy CoL & MM from Japan for the sensational príce of Poly & 66g. I thought this was better than buying CoL for Poly & 7g and then trading CoL to Zulus to get MM, because now we can still sell CoL to Zulus at a later time and get perhaps Construction.
The Persians also had CoL & MM, but they wanted Poly & Philo & 243g & 4gpt ...
IBT: Russian settler comes out of Yaroslavl.
Lagos: worker -> worker

1. 1225BC
Move 3 swords and 1 archer towards Izmit
Persia must have completed Poly in the IBT. (Now I know, why their price was so high...).
Why is the worker from Iznik building a road on the hill of ruins?
Moved settler to former Iznik.
IBT: Japanese start ToA, Persians Mausoleum. (This means, Persia got Philo from someone! Probably traded it for their Poly.)

2. 1200BC
Build Évora on former Iznik. (Sorry, Ivan, another name you can't spell... For those of you who don't have that letter on their keyboard: type É That works.) Set Évora to catapult. (Change this, if you think it's stupid. But I wasn't sure, whether barracks are worth it in a 39% corrupt town?!)
Gui has shield-overrun next turn, so I mmed the mined BG between Gui and Lisbon to the GL 1W of Gui. That way Lisbon can have it for a turn and earn an extra 2g...
5 swords and 1 archer approaching Edrine.
Increase science to 60% (Total 16turns)
IBT: Lisbon settler -> settler, Gui horse -> worker, Oporto horse -> horse, Lagos worker -> worker

3. 1175BC
Meet Germans. Trade Philo to Hittites for 84g, Japan 71g, Germans 65g = 222g
Horse from Oporto joins stack in front of Edrine.
Change Gui from worker to horse
IBT: Germans start Mausoleum, Persians Lighthouse, France ToA

4. 1150BC
2 swords raze Izmit.
First sword kills reg spear in Edrine, then the next two vet swords die in the attempt to kill last reg spear!!
The archer finally takes Edrine.
Small change in plan: the 2nd settler goes to silks area and 3rd settler to NC7 instead of Edrine. We can keep Edrine for as long as it takes to settle silks and NC7. So according to may calculation, the 4th settler should arrive at 1NW of Edrine in 11 turns from now. This change will save us 18g in unit upkeep and give us an additional worker from Edrine.
Setting research to 70% (-2gpt) Total now 14turns.
IBT: Lagos worker -> worker. America starts ToA, Korea Lighthouse, Hittites Mausoleum. Gui grows to 7.

5. 1125BC
Probably because Lisbon and Gui have grown in the IBT, Total for Currency is now down to 13turns.
IBT: Gui horse -> horse, Emerita horse -> horse
Japanese start Masoleum, Kyoto finishes The Great Lighthouse!
Persia starts ToA

6. 1100BC
Meet the Greeks. They have only 3 towns + capital, but more units then we do... And they have Currency and are willing to trade it for Poly & Writing &14g.
Sorry guys, even though I'm now blowing 227 beakers that I already collected for Cur, I'm taking that deal. Shutting down research for now.
We can later discuss, whether we just wait for Construction to appear, or whether we research it ourselves at full speed. (The latter might increase our chances, that the Sci civs won't have Monarchy yet, when we enter the middle ages. So hopefully we can trade Monotheism & Feudalism for Monarchy then.)
Change Gui to Marketplace.
IBT: Lisbon settler -> Marketplace, Lagos worker -> Marketplace

7. 1075BC
Ottomans are finally willing to talk. They would give Uskudar (which just dropped back to size 1), but none of their other two towns. So they must have two size-2 towns up there in the tundra. Istanbul is still constructing the ToA, so it should not be too well defended (perhaps only two spears, like the other towns we conquered so far?) I decide to carry on to Istanbul.

Found Braga on the first silks tile and set it to harbor.
Mayas finally have some cash. I sell them Alpha for 30g.
IBT: Edrine flipped! Fortunately I had just moved all units out of it the turn before...
Coimbra horse -> horse, Greeks start ToA

8. 1050BC
Vet sword attacks a reg archer in the open field and dies!! Next sword kills that archer, another sword retakes Edrine. This time I set it to Wealth, as there won't be enough time for a worker, before the replacement settler arrives.
Gui short-rushes a courthouse for 240g. 4 workers then chop a forest into Gui, so the marketplace will complete next turn!
Lisbon rushes courthouse for 280g. It also makes 10spt, so marketplace will complete in 2 turns.
Meet Mongols: nothing...
IBT: Arabia and Babylon sign an alliance against us!.
Gui Market -> horse. Silks are now connected! A bowman from Uruk approaches our incense hill. So I better upgrade the warrior in Oporto next turn.

9. 1025BC
Meet someone, don't know yet whom...
Sell Germans CoL for 101g. We want to gift the Sci civs into the middle age anyway, so we may as well get some money out of them...
IBT: forest chop goes into Oporto, Lisbon Market -> settler

10. 1000BC
Babylon finish Construction. Is that good or bad for us? We can't trade it for a while, but we might get it in a peace deal? I would like to get it as early as possible, because as I said, the longer we wait now, the higher is the chance, that Monarchy isn't a monopoly any more, when we want to buy middle age techs.
Meet the Iroquois. Yawn...
Found Faro at NC7 location, set it to catapult also. (As before: please change, if you don't like it.)
A stack of 9 units reaches Istanbul. Hope that is enough. I dearly miss those 3 swords that unexpectedly died. And unfortunately one of the swords in the stack is yellow, as it had to kill an Ottoman sword on the way to Istanbul.
The sword I upgraded in Oporto the previous turn now attacks the Bowman and --- promotes the Bowman to vet!! The Bowman didn't even get a scratch! Move reinforcements from Lisbon and Edrine.

Handover notes:
Lisbon needs a bit micro-management to get back into the SF-rhythm. It is currently at size 5 and does 10spt, but the mined hill will have to be given up next turn to make 5fpt again. Perhaps short-rush a spear next turn?
Once Gui has grown, join two workers and it will make 15spt (= a horse every two turns)!
Lagos will probably need to build a settler, after the Market is finished, so it gets back into the worker factory rhythm.
The workers on the forest between Lisbon and Gui are supposed to build a road, not chop it...

And: the Russian settler that can be seen at Yaroslavl, has been moving back and forth along our border for the entire 10 turns I played... It doesn't seem to know where it wants to go...

My first deployment in an SGOTM. It was fun, but also some hard work... I'm glad I don't have to play for 60 turns now...
Lanzelot

 

[I. Larkin]

Meet someone, don't know yet whom...

You can press Ctr + Shift +D to find out immediately.

The workers on the forest between Lisbon and Gui are supposed to build a road, not chop it

Why?

Opend save. "Not bad, not bad..." I think at this situation we may let Lisbon grow. It may pump some sttlers later, but now it will work on High commerce tiles. It needs Harbor to use Oster and will be our ship yard.
I'd put Lagos on Settler while it is not late. and continue workers.
Crutial thing: Shall we continue MA with Russia vs Babs? If we do nothing Peace Treaty will be continued automatically without MA. But If Russia breake MA war may go earlier... I have "inclination" to continue MA.

 

[Lanzelot]

Keeping tech pace slow is a good goal, imo, but if there a bunch of gold for a well-known cheap tech such as Philo, I say take the trade. As far as gifting SCI civs into the MA, I think it depends on the timing. Right now, I don't think we are ready to make much use out of Chivalry. But if in 10-20 turns when we have more of an army, doing the gift and blitzing to Chiv might make more sense.

I think we should make the gift now as early as possible, because that will increase our chances to trade Monarchy for the first tier middle age techs.
Once we have traded for Monotheism and Feudalism, we can still delay our research of Chivalry until our horses are ready. At least we will already have Mono & Feud. But if we wait with the gift until our horses are ready, we may find that half of the sci civs already have Monarchy and the other half gets Engineering, when we gift them ...

Lanzelot

 

[Lanzelot]

Why?

Lisbon needs the forest for the SF, as Gui will work on the mined hill again.
But if you don't want to continue pumping settlers from Lisbon, we may as well chop and then later mine the wine hill, which should also be sufficient for a settler factory.

Crutial thing: Shall we continue MA with Russia vs Babs? If we do nothing Peace Treaty will be continued automatically without MA. But If Russia breake MA war may go earlier... I have "inclination" to continue MA.

My suggestion is: let MA expire, make peace with Babylon for whatever they are willing to give, and buy Construction. Then try to get all three first tier techs from sci civs, and then start very slow research on Chivalry.
(We should already start selling techs to sci civs now, whenever they have a little money.)

With war happiness from Arabia and the silks connected, we don't need war happiness from Babylon anymore.

Meanwhile we continue the war effort against Arabia, which shouldn't take long, and then bring our army back home. When 20 turns are over, we should have a large number of horses, 1200g in the bag and Chivalry finished. So as soon as the peace deals with Russia and Babylon expire, upgrade the horses, start charging and don't look back until you reach Babylon-City!

 

[Lanzelot]

PS: Can't check right now: do Babyloneans and Russians have iron? If not, we may also gift them to MA. But otherwise I don't want them to get Feudalism...

 

[Lanzelot]

Another PS: we may also want to spy into Moscow and Zimbabwe. They might have a good chance of finishing ToA for us?!

 

[I. Larkin]

PS: Can't check right now: do Babyloneans and Russians have iron? If not, we may also gift them to MA. But otherwise I don't want them to get Feudalism...

Yes, both have, but Russia not coneced.

My suggestion is: let MA expire, make peace with Babylon for whatever they are willing to give, and buy Construction. Then try to get all three first tier techs from sci civs, and then start very slow research on Chivalry.

It is the most critical decision to make next turn. We may left Russia in Peace and continue war for a while ( I want NC8 istead of Akkad) and then make Peace. But what our Army will do 20 turns? War with Arabia? OK, but may be give them Istambul or another Otto's City?
Mekka, Medina and Domascus stay in "our global interests area".