SGOTM 14 - Kakumeika

[bcool]

That bronze, sheep, cows, horses site is very attractive see screen shot here.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10864764&postcount=760

I think the workboat will not be able to fully fogbust it, but I think it is worth a shot and the workboat would make it more likely we could get a warrior down there as well if we settle the GPFarm site as the current plan suggests.

Good point on the math prerequisite. I think a fort 1N1W of gems city is a no-brainer once we get math though.

I was getting the fifth settler out of the capital T74 with suitable forests chopped and roads built under the settler so that it could get to the desert hill in just two turns. Settling there T77 syncs with the whip of another settler in Stone City. So that is an option to consider because it keeps the gold tile working more turns.

sounds good

 

[mabraham]

Note that there are lots of inter-linked aspects of the ideas I'm suggesting. The city growth, tech, worker flow and settler flow are all coupled fairly tightly. So adopting some of these ideas will probably suggest adopting most of them. In particular, the capital plan has to take account of the flow of workers out to the fourth city site, and in from the Stone City.

 

[mabraham]

That bronze, sheep, cows, horses site is very attractive see screen shot here.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10864764&postcount=760

I think the workboat will not be able to fully fogbust it, but I think it is worth a shot and the workboat would make it more likely we could get a warrior down there as well if we settle the GPFarm site as the current plan suggests.

Good point on the math prerequisite. I think a fort 1N1W of gems city is a no-brainer once we get math though.

Agreed on all - but the culture-bridge city (when we get it) does the fort job also. no it doesn't!!!

 

[Kaitzilla]

The monster GP farm is a big help on two of the three victory conditions we are considering, diplomacy beeline and culture. Any good suggestions on best Heroic Epic city if we make GP farm our 4th city?

 

[bcool]

The monster GP farm is a big help on two of the three victory conditions we are considering, diplomacy beeline and culture. Any good suggestions on best Heroic Epic city if we make GP farm our 4th city?

copper, sheep, cows, horses fish city? with some workshops it could compete perhaps hammerwise eventually. It has a nice advantage of being closer to the action too. (or at least a great flexibility to supply units in the direction we want)

edit, gems isn't bad at all. Gems is going to be a power house with all that food and it will come online significantly faster than we could get the copper site up and running. Gems could make up for having less hammers by whipping occasionally even with the HE with all that food.

 

[mabraham]

The monster GP farm is a big help on two of the three victory conditions we are considering, diplomacy beeline and culture. Any good suggestions on best Heroic Epic city if we make GP farm our 4th city?

A good GP farm is also a good help for late military games of any form.

I think HE in gems or copper cities is forced upon us if we settle the GPfarm as discussed.

A distant possibility if we choose to start warring very late is an inland site 1W of rice. It steals the sheep, rice and gold from the other cities, and works four mines and a host of watermills. Otherwise some of these tiles will be wasted.

 

[shulec]

Discussion seems to have died down. I need to rework my PPP to make everything sync up nicely.

There are two major questions on the table. I have reviewed the posts to see everyone's general feelings.

1. Whip or Hammer build the GLH.
There seems to be mostly support for hammer building it. There are a few who haven't comment (such as myself) and no one seems to support the whip.

Conclusion: Hammer build GLH.

2. Where to put the fourth city?
Most that have weighed in seem to reluctantly support the GP farm. It should be founded 3W of the Oasis.

I have seen waning support for the culture bridge support. I have not heard strong advocation for the Marble/clam site.

Conclusion: Found GP farm 3W of oasis.


I will try to finalize my PPP for turns 60 to 70+ and play turns 60 to 70 in about 18 hours.

 

[shulec]

I may have to push back my timetable for play. I changed a few things. I will highlight those changes later.

Spoiler :

Stone City

T60 Pyramids
T61 Switch to Lighthouse, VERY IMPORTANT
T62 Lighthouse (Work oasis, wet rice, crabs)
T63 Lighthouse (Work wet rice, crabs, stone, oasis)
T64 Lighthouse (Work Rice, crab, stone, oasis)
T65 Whip lighthouse complete with +10 chop and +20 chop, (Work wet rice, crabs)
T66 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, Stone)
T67 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, ghill, stone)
T68 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, ghill, stone)
T69 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold)
T70 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold)
T72 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold)
T73 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold, pf)
T74 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold, pf)
T75 The Great Lighthouse (Work crabs, rice, stone, ghill, gold, oasis)

Washington
60-63 Settler
63 whip Settler, work cow,sheep
64-66 Granary, swap corn for cows T64
67-70 Warrior
71 Pyramids 1 turn only to grow to pop 5
72-75 Settler

Gems City
Finish work boat=> Exploration
Granary
T70 Switch to monument
T71-72 Monument
T73 Whip Granary
T74 Finish monument
T75 Build Lighthouse

GP Farm
T66 Found City, build monument
T70 Finish monument
T71-75 Workboat

Eiffel
T60-61 Mine Gold
T62-65 Move to forest 3N1Eof stone city and chop
T66-67 Road 1N1E of Gold
T68-71 Move to forest 1NW of stone city and chop
T72-75 Move to forest 2S of Stone city and chop

Fritz
T60-61 Mine Gold
T62-65 Move to forest 2W of stone city and chop
T66-68 Move to forest 3N of Wash and pre-chop
T69-71 Pre-Chop tile 1N of Washington
T72-74 Finish Mine 1N1W of Washington
T75 Move to and Pre-chop 1S of Washington

Karl
T60-T62 Farm wheat
T63 Finish road 1E of wheat
T64-65 Road gems
T66 Mine 1N1W of Washington
T67 Move to Deer
T69-70 Build camp
T71-76 Move and mine 1S of Gems City

Goodyear
T60 finish chop
T61 road
T62 road (for settler produced and ready to move T64)
T63-64 Finish road 1N1E of gems.
T65 road 1W of Incense one turn
T66 Move to 1S of GP Farm
T67-70 Chop 1S of GP Farm
T71-74 Mine 1S of GP Farm
T75-T76 Road 1S of GP farm

Research
T61 0% Research toward Mysticism
T62-64 Mysticism
T65 0% Research toward Hunting
T66 100% Hunting
T67 80% Research finishing Hunting
T69 0% Research toward Writing
T70-72 Writing
T73 70% Writing
T74 0% Research Mathematics

Warriors
Columbus
T64 Head to arm to fogbust with workboat

New Warrior produced T70 in Washington
Goes to Stone city arriving on turn where Stone City goes to pop 6.

Workboat from GemsCity
Fog bust arm by copper.

Diplomacy
Accept open border agreements

Stopping points
Meet the Wizard
Meet last AI
GLH built
Pyramids built
Alphabet trades available

 

[bcool]

got to go, I approve of the decisions shulec made, but no time to look at details in PPP.

I was testing out a cultural game using espionage it has some promise... used liberalism for constitution. only 8 cities using espionage to get culture in american city, then will switch over and use in on the spanish city (using GE to instantly build the capital closer)

see attached save. I'm not sure exactly when I can finish, but each spy mission is giving 150-200 culture in the american city now so it does steamroll near the end.

 

[Kaitzilla]

The revised PPP is looking really good!

I vote yes on this plan.


The only nitpicks I see on it are:

Spoiler :

1) Stone City T64 (Work Rice, Crab, Stone, Oasis)
2) Washington T63 Whip settler (Work Sheep, Cow)
3) Washington T64-T65 Granary
4) Washington T66-T70 Warrior (Work Sheep, Corn, then cow @Size3, then PMine @Size4)
5) Karl T63 Finish Road 1E of Wheat
6) Karl T68-T71 Build Deer Camp
7) GP Farm T66-T69 Monument (Work ghill 2 turns, then silk 2 turns)
8) GP Farm T70-T72 Workboat (Work Silk)
9) GP Farm T73-T75 Workboat (Work gmine)
10) Goodyear T67-T69 Chop 1S of GPfarm
11) Goodyear T70-T73 Mine 1S of GPfarm
12) Goodyear T74-T75 Road 1S of GPfarm

Gems City is looking very nice. The monument is worked just long enough for the granary to get 2 pop whipped with a half full food bin and overflow to complete monument and more.
Really nice work. I'll break out the band if you can manage 15 turns of such crazy micro.

 

[shulec]

I changed a few things.

The obvious change was to set up for a GLH hammer build.

I also went for Mysticism first, then hunting. This delays the deer, which get worked for between 1-3 turns without a camp. This allows for getting a monument up ASAP in the GP Farm.

While waiting to work the deer, I have Karl mining the tile 1N1W of Washington for 1 turn. I feel this is an important tile to improve because it has a road and will allow Washington to be more productive at pop 5.

Based on test games, I saw barb cities pop up on the arm. I think the workboat from the Gems City needs to fog bust on the arm. Columbus also needs to fogbust the arm too. I need the workboat to guide the warrior to keep him alive. Washington builds a warrior after the settler for the GP Farm that can get to stone city in the nick of time to prevent unhappiness.

I am struggling with the Washington micro after the granary is built. If I work the Corn at 5 or cows at 3 3, I still grow to size three in two turns. Washington grows to Pop 5 one turn sooner with working the corn. The warrior comes about 2 turns later, but still in time to get to Stone city. I can only work the Pyramids for one turn if I work the corn, two turns if I work the cows (because I build the Mids in the turns between the warrior being finished and trying to grow to pop 5.) I honestly feel like working the cows until pop 3 feels better, but I need a number cruncher to tell me which option is better.

I found a nice city build micro for Gems City. It involves interrupting the granary build to allow the city to grow to pop 4 so we can two pop whip the granary with about 27 overflow to get the monument in one turn and a WB in 2 turns. The whip can be done one turn earlier, but the city regrows slower and the gems are not worked for 3 turns instead of 2 turns. The trade-off is an extra turn working an unimproved Grass Forest. These will fall in the next player's turnset, but look good.

We have gone below 100% research for sailing, and think we need to do it for hunting to based on micro. It can be done for writing, but it I don't think it will be necessary to force it.

As mabraham said before, a lot of the micro is like a house of cards and one small change has a cascade of effects that require a major overhaul to the PPP. That being said, I will kill you all if you don't like my PPP.

 

[shulec]

1) Stone City T64 (Work Rice, Crab, Stone, Oasis)

Fixed

2) Washington T63 Whip settler (Work Sheep, Cow)
3) Washington T64-T65 Granary
4) Washington T66-T70 Warrior (Work Sheep, Corn, then cow @Size3, then PMine @Size4)

I needed help with this. I will look into it and most likely go with your suggestion!

5) Karl T63 Finish Road 1E of Wheat
6) Karl T68-T71 Build Deer Camp

Fixed


7) GP Farm T66-T69 Monument (Work ghill 2 turns, then silk 2 turns)
8) GP Farm T70-T72 Workboat (Work Silk)
9) GP Farm T73-T75 Workboat (Work gmine)

I will look into it and most likely go with your suggestion, again!

10) Goodyear T67-T69 Chop 1S of GPfarm
11) Goodyear T70-T73 Mine 1S of GPfarm
12) Goodyear T74-T75 Road 1S of GPfarm

Fixed.

I need to make a pitfall turnlist checklist. In my test games, I screwed up at least one part so many times! I wasn't planning on going until turn 75, but if everyone wants this I can. My turns 70-75 have not yet been scrutinized.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I need to make a pitfall turnlist checklist. In my test games, I screwed up one part so many times! I wasn't planning on going until turn 75, but if everyone wants this I can. My turns 70-75 have not been scrutinized.

Hehe. On my practice game I screwed up tons. The only options are to play it through a few times with practice games until you got it down pat, or print out the PPP and follow it religiously. Then when you play, do it slow, and check tech, cities, and units one by one. Save every turn. I don't mind you playing to T75 if you want.

That warrior who goes down the spoke starting T65, I will pray for him and the guiding workboat . So far the barbs are 2 for 2 on our warriors.

 

[shulec]

That warrior who goes down the spoke starting T65, I will pray for him and the guiding workboat . So far the barbs are 2 for 2 on our warriors.

Hopefully the tandom can hold out until the Great Spy gets down there. We probably should prioritize the copper site in case we don't get Iron.

We need more workers after getting all of those settlers out there. We may need an archer for the spoke. Maybe Washinton should build an archer instead of a granary partial then warrior. The problem is columbus can go down the spoke quicker than a unit from washington and the washington unit has order to go to the stone city.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

I'd like to see two work boats exploring. One from the Stone city and another from a city on the other side of our local land mass. Maybe Galleys would be better.

Not sure the Galleys would fair better than our Warriors, but we need to review how to effectively neutralize Barbarian naval units (both spawning and maneuvers).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10891286&postcount=28

I suggest that we upload the current save (right now before playing a turn) to see whether the wizard is already dead in our game (slim hope, but good to know).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Kaitzilla]

Hopefully the tandom can hold out until the Great Spy gets down there. We probably should prioritize the copper site in case we don't get Iron.

We need more workers after getting all of those settlers out there. We may need an archer for the spoke. Maybe Washinton should build an archer instead of a granary partial then warrior. The problem is columbus can go down the spoke quicker than a unit from washington and the washington unit has order to go to the stone city.

Well, I suppose we could send that warrior to stone city and have the capital produce an archer instead of a warrior. It would take one extra turn and Washington would grow to size 5 before starting a settler. Then the archer from our capital can go down the spoke.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I'd like to see two work boats exploring. One from the Stone city and another from a city on the other side of our local land mass. Maybe Galleys would be better.

Not sure the Galleys would fair better than our Warriors, but we need to review how to effectively neutralize Barbarian naval units (both spawning and maneuvers).

Sun Tzu Wu

I think if we use warriors and cities to fogbust our coastline, barb galleys will only invade us from the spoke. The only way to neutralize them is to have defending galleys. It is far cheaper to try and keep them from spawning than to fight them.

I don't know what turn barb galleys begin appearing, but I know the Great Wall does not stop them.

I would like the southern workboat to eventually explore the landmass to our south, so we can see if our culture bridge city can settle and get 2 seafood instead of 1.

 

[shulec]

Well, I suppose we could send that warrior to stone city and have the capital produce an archer instead of a warrior. It would take one extra turn and Washington would grow to size 5 before starting a settler. Then the archer from our capital can go down the spoke.

I was trying to get Washinton to grow to turn 5 before building a settler. (I am still clinging to my preliminary micro where I had the mine built before Washington hit pop 5.) It would then work the spices until the PHmine is finished. This is two turns I believe, and I can't see a benefit of starting the settler before Pop 5 if the hammers are going to a useful build.

 

[shulec]

I think if we use warriors and cities to fogbust our coastline, barb galleys will only invade us from the spoke. The only way to neutralize them is to have defending galleys. It is far cheaper to try and keep them from spawning than to fight them.

I don't know what turn barb galleys begin appearing, but I know the Great Wall does not stop them.

I would like the southern workboat to eventually explore the landmass to our south, so we can see if our culture bridge city can settle and get 2 seafood instead of 1.

A bronze city will go a long way to help with this. Perhaps once we get Alphabet, we can use spies to fog bust. I have never done this, but once the AI expands, we will no longer need these and they will be put to use stealing techs.