I like having the 4th city be near the pigs somewhere north of gems city. Workers from gems city can get to it quickly, and the early pigs let it become useful right away producing soldiers, workboats for other coastal cities, and a monument or granary.
4th City marble will be slow with only clams, and the two workers who would be needed to improve it will probably be needed to improve or chop the capital.
5th or 6th City culture bridge sounds like a good idea once we research monuments.
If we need more , a solution is to hook up gems or gold. Gems can be hooked up by Karl/Goodyear on turn 58 (2 worker plan delays the wheat by 1 turn), or turn 62 (after having done the wheat). Some hybrids available in that range that complement the 1-worker wheat plan.
Gold is available as early as 61 (original PPP plan), but a little later than that under the other plans anywhere around turn 63-66 depending on the acceptable delay to the grassland mine.
If the next settler heads to pigs, that suggests getting a worker over to the PH North of Washington to speed it's arrival. That worker will also need to keep heading in that direction to get the pigs online in order to make that city useful.
Hmm, so much for an easy turnset. As I suspected, these worker choices have many ramifications that are difficult to assess.
Malcolm moves off only when Columbus is nearly a full replacement for him. He should move to the tile N of elephant, because this is just as good for preventing barb unit spawn, and better for preventing barb city spawn.
Goodyear
T56 finish gems mine
T57 move jungle
T58 road
T59 road
T60 move to farm wheat
T61 farm wheat
T62 move to deer
T63 start deer camp (hopefully Hunting is done, else road first)
T64 camp
T65 camp
T66 camp
T67 camp (done about the time of the growth to size 3)
T68 road
T69 road
T70 move to chop in capital or speed pigs
Karl
T56 finish gems mine
T57 move W and farm and stop
T58 farm wheat
T59 farm wheat
T60 farm wheat
T61 farm wheat
T61 move E and farm and stop (or maybe two turns on wheat road instead)
T62 move gems and road
T63 road
T64 move PFH
T65 road
T66 road
T67 move towards pig
T68 pasture pig the turn the city founds
We really need the gems connected to the empire by the time Stone City grows to 4 and sailing completes. I think this occurs on T63. A road on gems and a road on jungle won't be enough I think. If Karl roads Wheat on T61 and T62, the gems won't be connected until T64.
No, they don't have time to help the capital before about T73. I looked at that carefully. I tried to chop a forest for the capital after the rice farm, and couldn't get the GLH done on time.
I agree with this. If gold and rice are to be completed and roaded, then both workers need to stick around and chop forests for TGL to be completed on time.
I don't know if barb cities can spawn where barb units cannot. My gut says no because the barb cities are always protected by a barb unit.
I'll take a stab at summarizing what we have so far.
1)Everyone likes 3rd warrior moving north to complete the fogbust, possibly exploring coast while doing so.
2)Everyone likes granary first in Stone City when research ends.
3)Everyone likes Sailing after Granary.
4)On the question of wheat or gems first, gems appears to be in the lead.
5)Granary vs. settler being completed first in Washington is still undecided
6)Workboat vs. granary first in gems city still undecided.
7)Should Burke head west to find the last witches and The Wizard, or should he try to open a path to the north witches for trade route/religion? I'd vote west while hugging the forests and coast.
Walter is fine with the PPP and I think Frogdude is fine with it also, so 2 more votes and I'd say it's a go. If we can't hammer out a decision on the rest of the stuff, I think the person who's turnset it is has the final say
It has been reported by STW in this thread that barb cities can spawn where a barb unit can not spawn. Anywhere where there is uncovered fog barb cities are possible. They certainly seem more likely near resources, blue circles perhaps?
1)Everyone likes 3rd warrior moving north to complete the fogbust, possibly exploring coast while doing so.
sure, I think pyramids before is okay too, although a warrior has been suggested. I thought this might delay the GLH. I would rather build the warrior in the capital and not risk the GLH any more than we already have.
By the way starting the pyramids in Stone city doesn't prevent us from building the pyramids somewhere else. We just have to delete it from the queue. In addition we get failure gold for the hammers we put into the pyramids in another city. So this is an early strategy to build wealth with resource modifiers.
7)Should Burke head west to find the last witches and The Wizard, or should he try to open a path to the north witches for trade route/religion? I'd vote west while hugging the forests and coast.
I'm okay with Burke heading west hugging coast and forests. However if AI units are not nearby, I would delay a turn or 2 before crossing a wide expanse of non-forested tiles in the hopes the AI units will show up and will take out or suppress the barbarians.
I think we can agree on Effiel and Fritz plan too (at least mabraham okay the useless farm instead of the just worker move and frogdude okayed mbraham plan)
I think this shared farm is quite useful, and I thought it was critical for the GLH build in Stone City ending with 3 pop going to 4. However Kaitzilla seems to suggest it is possible to do this without the farm here. I thought from his test game that he had a forest regrow and an additional chop, but I could be wrong.
Kaitzilla do you have details on how you got your T75 GLH in Stone city?
I thought this was the agreed plan for Effiel and Fritz
Fritz
T52 move S and SW & farm & stop
T53 move SW & NW & farm
T54 farm
T55 farm
T56 finish farm (in time for it to be worked this turn at size 3)
T57 move to rice & farm
T58 farm rice
T59 move to Gmine and mine
T60 mine
To help decide Karl and Goodyear perhaps we need stats on what happens in the capital with delayed chops. How bad is the delay on the settlers compared to the advantages of improving the wheat earlier and perhaps roading the gems a bit earlier.
Okay mabraham has done this already although it is a bit hard to follow exactly what he is suggesting. I've copied relevant parts below in spoiler.
Spoiler:
Original suggestions for washington's build.
1) build a warrior instead growing to pop 4 by maximizing food and finishing the warrior
build settler and 2 pop whip with max overflow into granary in the capital
2) Or 2 pop washington's granary on T60 and put overflow into settler for 1 turn then switch to pyramids to regrow
finishing settler when at pop 5 and can 2 pop whip it.
I tried a fast whip of a granary (2 above - but build a warrior next) and growing on the granary before a fast whip of a settler overflowing to finish the granary next turn (1a). The build orders differ only after T59. Chops arrived T60 and T64 only. By T80 both cities were at size 5 with 21 food in the box and a new warrior MP. Comparing them:
I think Option 1a is
build a granary until pop 4. Then switch to settler. Then whip the settler with max overflow into granary. Then regrow on pyramids/warrior
I think Option 2 is
build a granary until pop 4. 2 pop whip the granary and use overflow to build warrior. Then regrow to pop 4? on pyramids, then settler?
Option 2 had 148 stone-multiplied hammers on the Pyramids and 17 on the next settler, with 10 turns until whip unhappiness faded. Its settlers were produced T66 (which is just in time for the workboat from Boston to arrive) and T74.
Option 1a had only 76 stone-multiplied hammers on the Pyramids but 34 on the next settler, with 3 turns until unhappiness faded. Its settlers were produced T63 and T72. These settler times are earlier, but it is not clear to me that this is a definite advantage. Settling the fourth city three turns earlier before a workboat or GLH is available is not a big edge.
A granary-first no-chops settler starts moving T67. After the wheat, if a worker puts a road on the jungle to speed the settler to pigs, that basically wastes the road on the plains between wheat and gems. Putting a road on the wheat after the farm makes things too slow to speed settling the pigs site on T68. So I suggest:
This gets the wheat farm up a turn slower, and the growth to size 2 after an immediate switch to wheat is a turn after when it would be with the earlier wheat farm. Growth to 3 is on the same turn, though. We've also got two turns on a plains farm later if we ever want it(!)
For that matter, only having one worker ever work on the wheat farm only slows the wheat by two turns, and that is also only one turn slower growing to size 2 (if we switch when wheat is farmed), and also a turn slower growing to size 3.
It would be nice for clarification on exactly what option 1a and 2 are. I think I understand but some elaboration would help.
So not chopping for the capital gets a settler moving by T67 vs. either option2's T66 or option 1a's T63.
devoting only one worker to the wheat delays wheat 2 turns and delays growth to 2 and 3 pop by 1 turn.
A settler 4 turns earlier probably is worth delaying gems city's growth by a turn. Especially if we settle up near pigs where a worker can get that city going faster than a single clam city would down south. The settler 4 turns earlier probably means pigs 4 turns earlier which offsets any delay with wheat.
Where barbarian cities can spawn is not related to where barbarian units are or can spawn.
A barbarian city can spawn in any land plot (except Mountain) that is not directly visible by one's units or cities. It can spawn 2 plots from a fog busting unit, if there is a terrain feature like a mountain, hill or oasis that prevents direct line of sight. On the other hand, fog busting units prevent barbarian unit spawning within 2 plots, regardless of whether or not a direct line of sight to plots 2 away exists.
I had some nice results in Stone City by building granary as soon as possible and switching to Seafood, Stone, Ghill for 9/turn. After 3 turns I was able to whip it complete and regrow on wet rice and seafood.
Both the capital and stone city already have 3 good sources of food. The shared farm is a good idea but I think the ghill first is better.
This is really good. I can get T74 GLH off it, and am 2 hammers short of a 3-whip on T73 Basically we don't build the river Gfarm any more. I can't find a way to squeeze more out of the system. Details to follow.
Trying to squeeze a warrior out of stone city instead of pyramids failure gold might be a bit better, since stone city seems to be having happy problems.
This is really good. I can get T74 GLH off it, and am 2 hammers short of a 3-whip on T73 Basically we don't build the river Gfarm any more. I can't find a way to squeeze more out of the system. Details to follow.
This is essentially independent of the rest of the empire. Either gems connected or a warrior MP are required by about T68, which is heaps of time for anything. A BFC forest growth early enough would be enough to get GLH on T73. We do have the opportunity to sneak out a warrior MP from SC on T65 without compromising the T74 GLH. Edit: alternatively we can avoid chopping the far NE forest.
To help decide Karl and Goodyear perhaps we need stats on what happens in the capital with delayed chops. How bad is the delay on the settlers compared to the advantages of improving the wheat earlier and perhaps roading the gems a bit earlier.
Okay mabraham has done this already although it is a bit hard to follow exactly what he is suggesting
I confirmed a T74 TGL trying to duplicate my test game. Not sure how but it was a perfect 200/200 after the 3 pop whip on T74.
Build Order -
Spoiler:
Eiffel:
T52 Road 1W of Stone City
T53 Mine Ghill
T55 Road 1W of Oasis
T56 Road 1W of Stone City
T57 Farm Rice
T60 Road Rice
T62 Mine Gold
T64 Farm 1W of Oasis
T66 Move to and of the 3 forests
T67 Chop
T70 Go help Capital
Fritz:
T52 Farm 1S of Stone City
T53 Mine Ghill
T55 Road 1W of Oasis
T56 Farm 1W of Oasis
T57 Farm Rice
T59 Move to Gold
T60 Road Gold
T62 Mine Gold
T64 Farm 1W of Oasis
T66 Move to any forest
T67 Chop
T70 Move to last forest
T71 Chop
T74 Go help Capital
Stone City:
T52 Swtich to Warrior from that silly workboat
T54 Switch to Granary, VERY IMPORTANT
T56 Granary, (Work Ghill, Stone, Crabs)
T59 Whip Granary, (Work Crabs, Wet Rice)
T60 Warrior
T62 Warrior, (Work Oasis, Crabs, Wet Rice)
T63 Finish Warrior, (Work Gold, Stone, Crabs, Wet Rice)
T64 Lighthouse
T66 Whip Lighthouse, (Work Crabs, Wet Rice)
T67 The Great Lighthouse, (Work Crabs, Wet Rice, Oasis)
T68 The Great Lighthouse, (Work Crabs, Wet Rice, Stone, Ghill)
T70 The Great Lighthouse, (Work Gold, Crabs, Wet Rice, Stone, Ghill)
T74 The Great Lighthouse, 3 pop whip complete
Okay shared farm is out, original PPP plan for Fritz and Eiffel is in?
I would guess not since we need the Ghill mine earlier than that plan produces...
ah sorry Kaitzilla includes a worker plan for Fritz and Eiffel
Okay, so I would suggest we definitely build the pyramids in Stone City instead of the unneeded warrior. That warrior's hammers would decay most likely by the time stone city could return to it, no? Failure gold on the pyramids and the subtle negative AI effect of building the pyramids is useful I think.
I like Mabraham's option 1a for Washington and I'm okay with sending goodyear back to chop for washington after 1 turn on the gems.
Nice work guys on the better build time for GLH in stone city
If we don't need the from the gold before T70 we could probably get away with chopping a forest outside the BFC and get the GLH by T73, no?\
ah mabraham already does that in his plan, but Kaitzilla doesn't.
Or instead of chopping that outside BFC forest we could delay the gold a bit and chop a forest for the capital as Kaitzilla suggest below.
We need the Ghill completed by T56 in order to get the Granary done in time for wet rice.
If we modified Frogdude's PPP slightly it should free up some worker turns and skip the shared farm completely.
Eiffel:
T52 Road West of Stone City
T53-T56 Mine Ghill
T57-T59 Rice, wait for Fritz to road it first
T60-T61 Mine Gold
Fritz:
T52 Move to Gold
T53-T54 Road
T55 Road Rice
T56 Road 1W of Stone City
T57 Road Rice before Eiffel Moves onto the tile
T58-T59 Rice
T60-T61 Mine Gold
This will cost us 4 gold 1 gold in maintenance for having a worker outside our borders with the settler, but it gives us time to have Eiffel or Fritz improve or chop in the capital for a bit I think.
We need the Ghill completed by T56 in order to get the Granary done in time for wet rice.
If we modified Frogdude's PPP slightly it should free up some worker turns and skip the shared farm completely.
Eiffel:
T52 Road West of Stone City
T53-T56 Mine Ghill
T57-T59 Rice, wait for Fritz to road it first
T60-T61 Mine Gold
Fritz:
T52 Move to Gold
T53-T54 Road
T55 Road Rice
T56 Road 1W of Stone City
T57 Road Rice before Eiffel Moves onto the tile
T58-T59 Rice
T60-T61 Mine Gold
This will cost us 4 gold in maintenance for having a worker outside our borders, but it gives us time to have Eiffel or Fritz improve or chop in the capital for a bit I think.
Yes, I like plan 1a also. The first settler comes out much faster.
Can a single worker get gems connected to the empire with roads and build wheat in a decent time? With the modified PPP gold completes on T61 so we have a lot of time to get gems hooked up with roads, maybe T66 or T67 so I can see it working.
Also, the earlier rice and gold roads means 1 worker should be able to chop all 3 forests in time for TGL right? That would free up the other to go to the capital.
Fritz could:
T62 walk onto forest
T63-T64 Prechop
T65 walk onto another forest
T66-T68 Chop
T69 walk back to prechopped forest
T70 Chop
T71 walk onto last forest
T72-T74 Chop
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, a solution is to hook up gems or gold. Gems can be hooked up by Karl/Goodyear on turn 58 (2 worker plan delays the wheat by 1 turn), or turn 62 (after having done the wheat). Some hybrids available in that range that complement the 1-worker wheat plan.
/turn. After 3 turns I was able to whip it complete and regrow on wet rice and seafood.
Basically we don't build the river Gfarm any more. I can't find a way to squeeze more out of the system. Details to follow.
from the gold before T70 we could probably get away with chopping a forest outside the BFC and get the GLH by T73, no?\
