SGOTM 14 - One Short Straw

[babybluepants]

I'm not sure what you're saying here... Forest Chops shouldn't affect building Culture, so I'm lost on this point. I guess as long as bbp understands it, it doesn't matter.

I think he means if we need the base hammers from the forest to get 10c.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Well, for a City that will build:
a) a Theatre
AND
b) Culture for the rest of its Hammers

as long as we don't care about the fat cross squares, then the only requirement is to put as close to as possible as the complete number of Hammers into the Theatre as needed as soon as possible, hopefully without going over the cost of the Theatre, since any extra Hammers going into the Theatre beyond the cost of the Theatre will be lost (they won't contribute to the Theatre and they won't contribute to building Culture).

It gets slightly more complicated if you want to work a square in the fat cross or Chop a Forest in the fat cross, in which case you'd build Culture first and then build the Theatre ASAP, but again trying not to "overbuild" the Theatre.

For example, let's say that you have a 30 Hammer Forest Chop in the fat cross and let's say that a Theatre costs 75 Hammers. I'm not sure about these exact numbers but they should work to illustrate my point.

You'd want to build Culture as much as possible to get to 10 Culture ASAP. Apparently, you'd also want to ensure that you have a Theatre queued-up, since you could feasibly get double credit for the Hammers.

In the case of getting double credit, presumably, if possible, you'd build Culture up to 8 or 9 Hammers and then on the last turn of building Culture, you'd, with a pre-queued Theatre, try and put as many base Hammers (Forest Chops won't count) into the Culture build, so that you'd get, say, a total of 12 Hammers going into the Culture from already have 8 Culture in the City, such that you'd then get 4 Hammers going into Culture and 4 Hammers into a Theatre. I'm not sure if it's worth working a lesser-Hammer square for a turn before hitting this point (such as getting to 8 or 9 Culture instead of 10 immediately, but it probably is worth waiting, if you care about those few Hammers' worth of micro).

Anyway, from that point on, you'd focus on building the Theatre up to exactly the amount of Hammers MINUS any Forest Chops. So, with the numbers above, with a Theatre supposedly costing 75 Hammers and a Forest Chop supposedly giving us 30 Hammers, we'd want to build the Theatre up to 75 - 30 - 1 turns' wroth of base Hammers... so, if we make 4 Hammers per turn, that's 75 - 30 - 4 = 45 - 4 = 41 Hammers.

We'd then switch to building Culture.

On the turn that we complete the Chop, we'd go back to building the Theatre so that we'd have 41 + 4 base Hammers + 30 Hammers from the Chop = completed Theatre with no overflow (1 or 2 Hammers of overflow are better than delaying the completion of the Theatre for 1 turn, though, since the Theatre being completed earlier by 1 turn = 3 Hammers' worth of building Culture).

That way, you only have a minimal excess of Hammers that can't get used in any build item (the Hammers would just "accumulate" but never be spent until we built something other than Culture for a turn, but we wouldn't have anything useful to build, so those Hammers would be lost).

In particular, if you have expanded a City's borders to its fat cross and are building a Theatre but have a Forest Chop, be sure to watch the City so that you don't, say, build 60 base Hammers in the Theatre and then Chop 30 more Hammers... if you make 4 base Hammers per turn, then you'd have 60 + 4 + 30 = 94 Hammers, of which 75 would be used in the Theatre, but then 94 - 75 = 19 Hammers would not be used in any build item... having switched out to building Culture sooner could have given you most, if not all of those 19 Hammers being turned into a Culture build.

 

[babybluepants]

LC,
Have you thought about the next GA timing? We need to switch to Caste within it. I'm not really sure how to estimate that accurately.

Just wondering - what happens to the AP if we kill the last remaining Buddhist?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Just wondering - what happens to the AP if we kill the last remaining Buddhist?

Whoever owns the AP will be the Resident, regardless of what their State Religion (or lack thereof) happens to be... although if we become the Resident by capturing the AP, we might have to wait until the next Resident Election before we can actually propose any AP Resolutions.

 

[LowtherCastle]

I'm not sure what you're saying here... Forest Chops shouldn't affect building Culture, so I'm lost on this point. I guess as long as bbp understands it, it doesn't matter.

Bbp is right. If the city has only one citizen, and the tile with the most hammers has a forest, which is likely in the hub, then we don't finish choping that tile till we're over the 10 limit, because working that tile gets us over the limit fastest. In a big city, we work max hammers, without starving off a population, even if that gives us 15.

We don't care about hammers overflowing from the theater build. What we care about is getting over 10 asap, then chopping (or whipping) the theater on the next turn, if possible. Hammer overflow be damned... In fact, we dont even care about chopping forests outside the FC for our 100c cities at this point. If we can build 5h of culture AND chop the other 45h of the theater ALL on T+1 (after putting 5h into culture on T+0), then on T+2 we'll expand our borders AND complete the theater... (I think. I haven't tried it. But someone could easily test it.) It would just require the right amount of forests and workers in advance.

LC,
Have you thought about the next GA timing? We need to switch to Caste within it. I'm not really sure how to estimate that accurately.

Just wondering - what happens to the AP if we kill the last remaining Buddhist?

No, I haven't thought about it carefully. Actually, the sooner the better, but I've been assuming we'd time it so we're still in the GA during the IT from T174-T175, to prevent a STRIKE. That changes, if I understand what you're saying about STRIKE, because I thought we had to worry about no hammer, culture, and commerce production during a STRIKE.

So if the only fear is units dying off, then I don't see any reason we wouldn't start the GA asap. If, at the end, we're running into a STRIKE that might kill off our attackers at Oz, then it's actually better to not be in a GA, because then we can ust revolt to every possible civic available and thereby postpone the STRIKE till we kill Oz, right?


The AP is now ours (Ulundi). That concern is gone forever.

 

[babybluepants]

No, I haven't thought about it carefully. Actually, the sooner the better, but I've been assuming we'd time it so we're still in the GA during the IT from T174-T175, to prevent a STRIKE. That changes, if I understand what you're saying about STRIKE, because I thought we had to worry about no hammer, culture, and commerce production during a STRIKE.

So if the only fear is units dying off, then I don't see any reason we wouldn't start the GA asap. If, at the end, we're running into a STRIKE that might kill off our attackers at Oz, then it's actually better to not be in a GA, because then we can ust revolt to every possible civic available and thereby postpone the STRIKE till we kill Oz, right?

In these games, I've sometimes needed an emergency settler whip or two towards the end. Things can go wrong with so many units everywhere. Other than that, starting the GA asap sounds ok.

I'm trying to figure out a working finish date, but it's pretty tough with so much going on. Getting to the western end of both Zulu and Mongolia is a bit tricky without the spoke canals. I think 10t to eliminate both sounds reasonable? I can see how they'd both be down to 2-3 cities by T+5.

We need a minimum of about 12 settlers based on your dotmap, but we could probably use upwards of 20 and just settle any loose tiles. With two out already and 5 currently in production, that seems very doable. Good job on starting the hub freeway from Viking land, btw. Roads will help a lot. I would commit all the workers around Prayaga now.

Anyway, I think that 1150 is a workable target, which is T+14 from the start of an immediate GA. It could be +/- some turns, but we'll just have to make sure we have the settlers at that date.

 

[babybluepants]

@LC,
I've had a pretty tough week. Sorry for leaving it all up to you. If you can play some 4-5t turns today, I'll try to play a couple tonight and I'd like to play 5t tmr morning. That should put us very close with still some hours to go between us two.

 

[babybluepants]

I've been thinking more about the pop limit.

We currently have 228 population, giving us 38.19%. That's a total population of 597. Gandhi & Monte have 28.00% showing, which is between 168 and 173.

Shaka has 40 and Genghis 1662000 in F9. We see 666000 and can't see Karakorum and 1 more city. That's 996000 remaining, which could be 10+8 and we're outdated on the other cities. So, a total of about 35, for 75 between him and Shaka.

Assuming we can keep the current pop + Shaka + GK + Phrygian + 12 new cities (we'll be whipping and capturing, but also growing), we'd have a total of at least 321, which would currently be 53.76% or just enough. The percentage also varies depending on G+M pop, ofc. We'll also capture a few Malinese cities, but Gandhi and Monte could also expand further.

I think the easiest spot to force the issue, if we need to, is Monte's spoke and hub. He has a 3 cities with 24 pop showing and lots of land around them.

 

[babybluepants]

Do you have a tile count summary you could give me?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Anyway, I think that 1150 is a workable target, which is T+14 from the start of an immediate GA. It could be +/- some turns, but we'll just have to make sure we have the settlers at that date.

Right. 1150AD is the last date showing for the Ducks so I'd like to finish 1140AD with the victory screen on 1150AD.

@LC,
I've had a pretty tough week. Sorry for leaving it all up to you. If you can play some 4-5t turns today, I'll try to play a couple tonight and I'd like to play 5t tmr morning. That should put us very close with still some hours to go between us two.

SOunds good to me. We just have to get this done. It won't be easy. I think I'm too slow to be able to finish it on time.

Do you have a tile count summary you could give me?

No. I was planning to ask Mitch or someone do do that in a few turns, when we've defogged GK.

Good thing you're watching the pop count. I never even think about it, because it's usually nowhere close. Based on your analysis, we'll have to watch it. I think we need to grow our cities toward the end anyway for commerce. Capturing big cities will help both ways, with gold and knocking down their population.

I forget the exact calculation, but we approach the domination limit much faster by taking away one of their pops than by adding one of ours.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Looks like Fifth Element won a cultural victory. I'm very impressed. COmpare their culture graph with ours...

 

[LowtherCastle]

"Playing."

 

[babybluepants]

I forget the exact calculation, but we approach the domination limit much faster by taking away one of their pops than by adding one of ours.

It's simple - highest enemy pop, rounded down + 25%. They have 28%, so 53%.

 

[LowtherCastle]

It's simple - highest enemy pop, rounded down + 25%. They have 28%, so 53%.

Huh? You mean it changes throughout the game? I didn't realize that. That's bizarre. So that means it gets harder for us as we beat down on other AIs, right? Unless we maintain the world population at the same rate. Good to know.

I was actually talking about something else. Let's say it's 53% and we have 53 out of 100, so we're good. If they grow to 48, so it's now 53:48, there are two possible solutions, we grow to 54 or they shrink to 47. BUt...54:48 is fractionally below 53% and rounds down to 52%.

In other words, with the dom limit above 50%, our actual percentage shrinks if we grow 1:1 with the AIs. But if we shrink 1:1 with the AIs, our actual percentage increases.

So another solution if it's really close and we're at war is to blockade their cities dependent on seafood or pillage their land food resources.

It also means we don't really want to trade them resources anymore, especially since they went Mercantilism. (Btw, we can't get any foreign TRs anymore, since Monty and G are both in that.

 

[Mitchum]

do do that in a few turns, when we've defogged GK.

No problem. When you're done with your next mini-turnset, I'll do a count to see where we are with pop and land.

Nice work so far, LC.

 

[Mitchum]

Quick comment: There's a warrior north of Ivory City that can be used as MP somewhere if needed.

Also, how do you plan to get through the Zulu spoke?

EDIT: When do you plan to caputure the barb city on our spoke?

 

[LowtherCastle]

Quick comment: There's a warrior north of Ivory City that can be used as MP somewhere if needed.

Also, how do you plan to get through the Zulu spoke?

EDIT: When do you plan to caputure the barb city on our spoke?

I'm leaving that warrior there because I'm not interested in inviting the barbs to hassle us with a random galley.

EDIT: Zulu's spoke? We cannot get through a 3-tile spoke. Period.



Our barb city only needs 10 so he's table scraps at the end.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

It also means we don't really want to trade them resources anymore, especially since they went Mercantilism. (Btw, we can't get any foreign TRs anymore, since Monty and G are both in that.

I wouldn't go cancelling any trades unless we are getting zero benefit from them. AIs rarely benefit a whole lot from trades with the human player and in many cases if you try to deprive them of your trades, they shrug it off and aren't really affected.


As for a Golden Age now versus later... now is probably better, since we can get more units now and delay our strike until later... that said:
a) If we revolt into Anarchy at the end just to avoid losing units, we'll also be producing zero Culture in our Cities, so using such an approach has a big trade off. That said, we could potentially aim to go into Anarchy to save Gold for a couple of turns if we only have sufficient Gold saved up to go to 100% Culture for 1 turn, thereby delaying the turn that we go to 100% Culture until after a couple of more Cities have come out of revolt at the cost of not getting any base Culture (from Theatres, Religion, etc) for a couple of turns
AND
b) We might never be able to afford to go 100% Culture, but even if we can, the effectiveness of doing so outside of a Golden Age is far lower than when inside of a Golden Age
AND
c) We do need to be aware of the timing of Civic switches... assuming that we won't switch into Anarchy (remember that we can only switch Civics once every 5 turns, regarldess of whether the switch was during a Golden Age or not), we might switch, say, from Slavery to Caste System on the last turn of our Golden Age (or on the second last turn so that we don't forget to switch). That timing means that we won't be able to whip any units after that point, so if the plan is to whip Settlers right until the end and then switch to Caste System on the very last turn, we'll probably need to adjust such a plan to switching out of Slavery earlier to co-incide with our Golden Age... meaning that we'll have to plan to have whipped out our Settlers before the Golden Age ends


Nothing that I wrote says "delay the Golden Age," but it just says "let's be aware of the issues of launching a Golden Age now and be sure that we plan for them."

 

[Dhoomstriker]

By the way, I'm not sure how an AI switching into Mercantilism would affect Resource trades anyway.

t's simple - highest enemy pop, rounded down + 25%.

Interesting. So, our only real challenge is getting a sizeable chunk of population over and above the highest population AI Team.

Thus, if we are uncertain about winning this condition, we simply lay the beat down on the largest pop AI Team (Gandhi/Monte) and take a City or two and we'll have a dramatic affect on the numbers.

I doubt that we'll satisfy the Land Area criterion without satisfying the Population criterion, but if such a situation comes to pass, we'll simply need to have the idea in the back of our minds to go after Gandhi/Monte near the end of the game.

 

[babybluepants]

I doubt that we'll satisfy the Land Area criterion without satisfying the Population criterion, but if such a situation comes to pass, we'll simply need to have the idea in the back of our minds to go after Gandhi/Monte near the end of the game.

It's usually not an issue, because one AI will rarely have more than 20% pop by the end. Here we're up against two of them. It should be fine, but we should keep an eye on it as we near the end. Because of the way it's calculated, capturing one or two of their cities can make a huge difference.