SGOTM 14 - Phoenix Rising

[stuge]

I'm on the same lines as bobby and kadazzle. Go for BW now and concentrate on getting
the good spots up and running.

In scouting I'd like to go north too. The south looks like if there is land, it'll be a land bridge, which would send the warrior on a one-way trip.

 

[Kadazzle]

I was talking about islands south. We're north of the equator, there's 8 other AI on the map, presumably there's someone south.

 

[Gumbolt]

I was talking about islands south. We're north of the equator, there's 8 other AI on the map, presumably there's someone south.

I think we are bottom SE of the entire map. So we want to scout NE. The Wizard will be West of us on the other side of the map. We can perhaps send one workboat West and one North.

As for techs. I think hunting would be useful soon. Purely as the second city has a deer and it would provide 5 food! Would hunting be a good next tech??? Then mining, bw or writing.

Okay if we are not going CS and just currency we could consider a GLH gambit?

Key early techs seem to be writing/sailing/Bronze working. If we want the GLH we need masonry too. From looking at the map we need to start on GLH soon.

As for other teams. I have no idea how PD got a score of 85 by 3000bc. I can only assume they went early sailing and got 4 pop sooner? Even that seems unlikely.

 

[vranasm]

@Gum

there's just too many techs you want at once...

don't forget myst-->ph line too...

maybe we should think about the resources as you outlined about the deer. You should calculate the time when you will really need it though.

The city 2 has wheat + gems, deer is 3rd resource. So calculate the number of turns to improve them + settler movements and settler build time AND chop time of WB!

I would be surprised you would need hunting before mining+BW.

We don't see horses, most natural feels to check bronze (that's the way you usually think), we have archers though, indicating no copper.

Then there is Wheel, since the rivers are not going our way and capital isn't coastal to suffice with sailing.

We have stone that should mean masonry.

What are your plans for city growth and build items? will we go with variant 1 I outlined in the SS? - aka worker size 3, both chop settler?

 

[Mylene]

I agree with Kadazzle, for now we should focus on the next turnset cos they are still linear without many decisions to make ~~
What does it help to make Oracle or scouting plans, if you don't have the units or cities yet
It helped for choosing the capital location, but now we have some basic play to do before we need future plans again.

 

[Gumbolt]

I agree with Kadazzle, for now we should focus on the next turnset cos they are still linear without many decisions to make ~~
What does it help to make Oracle or scouting plans, if you don't have the units or cities yet
It helped for choosing the capital location, but now we have some basic play to do before we need future plans again.

Actually if we choose BW now it will have an impact if we choose to go for the GLH. On test game the Ai got it 750bc. The second city has little or no production for wonders meaning you would have to go for the gold site.

Hunting is 5 turns. It allows a 5F food resource in second city. That being said the wheat will only add 2 food too. But those 2 together mean you could build a library there as it would soon grow to size 5 with 5f and 4f resource.

I agree with V we can't do everything. If we want GLH we will have to sacrifice growth.

Of course early alphabet may allow some tech trading with possible Ai out there.

 

[vranasm]

the wheat is irrigated so farm adds 3 and makes it 5f1H tile... strongest tile in the city 2.

we could use some whips with 2 5F tiles to generate LH and GLH...?

we should use the whip after all

 

[Mylene]

Actually if we choose BW now it will have an impact if we choose to go for the GLH.

Why? BW first is the only good play here with so many forests and land to settle, i don't see how it has an impact on any plans besides getting us running.
All iam asking for is to play the turns we agree on quick, so we can move on to the real planning

 

[Gumbolt]

In all my testing so far I have on each occasion I have been beaten to GLH. Once around 750bc once at 1160bc. Although my map did give most of the Ai coastal starts. I think the same will be true on the live map. It is difficult to build this and the oracle. I think we face a choice between the 2 as we simply can't tech everything.

The pigs/crabs site has much better production btw.

I will do an hour or so more of play testing and report back.

In terms of chopping in capital.

You need to chop route to grass hill. As route crossing river and passing oasis takes 2 turns for settler.

As for moving the warrior. If we move it away from site 2 we may get barb animals. There is a logic to using the workboat (on turn 43??) to scout rest of the coast. Also a logic for building archers too to stop us losing warriors to barbs.

 

[Gumbolt]

Okay took a slightly different approach and got the GLH.

Teched to BW/sailing/masonry/mystmed/PH.

Basically we have from t13-t74 to get both done. In truth GLH could go before turn 65? Oracle could go pre 1000bc too.

I settled pigs crab city first. Got the pigs worked with 2 workers. Then mined/chop 3 hills near it. Great Lighthouse is 25 turns with the 3 mines.

This did delay the exploring workboat and the gem city. Quite honestly the gem city lacks the production t do the job.

The main issue is going for the GLH makes oracle grab stuck at COL. I was not able to get out 2 gs or a library before 1000bc. Happily the holy shrine was found near the gold site. The GLH stops the need for monument in pigs city too.

What did amaze me was the strength of that pig site. 12-15 production without a border pop.

Any thoughts on this? Or should we ignore the wonder and hope to capture it?

 

[Gumbolt]

Okay you can get GLH in Boston 1N above pigs.

Mining/BW/sailing/masonry/myst/med/PH/writing - Oracle COL.

Downside is lack of writing.

So it is a choice of Currency with maths and academy vs GLH and COl.

On the first choice you may get basic techs like hunting and TW. The other the tech timeframe is very limited.

The chances are if we do build it we might of captured it from an AI anyway early on. If we don't build it we may lose out on $$$ trade routes. The difference between currency and COL is not huge. Although building of wealth is useful.

This still leave us the mad dash to construction/HBR.

Overall city 2 and 3 should be gems and pig city. Pig city has so much production and most within first city ring.

4th gold city followed by phant city. Just takes too long to set up and we can use missionary to help if need be. It is a roll of dice where religion may pop up. (Won't be capital)

 

[vranasm]

the 1N above pigs catched my eyes as one of possible spots, didn't realize that it's so strong.

I am completely fine with sailing/masonry.

Did you use some whips in capital to get settlers/workers going?

I think getting the stone and GLH+Mids should be strong play here.

I am not sold on Oracle if it would mean not getting Mids.

 

[Gumbolt]

V you could in theory skip the oracle. Certainly if going for GLH it makes it a weaker strategy. There is no guarantee of getting the GLH even if we go for it.

Yep Pigs city is much stronger than it looks. Setting it up earlier will be key. We need to see if going settler before 2nd worker helps it. It can pump out units and galleys. Mainly galleys?

Your point on mids is a moot one. Concentrating too much on wonders may distract us from a military vicitory. Again I had no roads on my game. Mids and police state is interesting. Remember also we may well capture wonders so don't let this distract us too much. I am merely seeing what might be possible.

What is clear is you can't get Oracle/GLH and early writing. Pushing for early construction is another option.

 

[Mylene]

Iam against GLH, with the capital not being coastal.

 

[vranasm]

2 worker start delays the first settler by ~5 turns. you lack the worker turns though then, since you either chop out another in capital or you move to city 1 to improve things.

So even if 2 worker starts seem a bit slower with settling, in no land competition game should be stronger since you will have city 2 up much sooner.

 

[vranasm]

Iam against GLH, with the capital not being coastal.

out of first 6 cities will be probably 5 coastal (except capital :-().

Masonry is logical tech choice due to stone AND marble

roster speculates on some nearby islands.

I would have to hear more to agree with this strict negativism.

 

[Mylene]

Ok sure...we cannot have everything ~~

We have stone and marble, so these wonders kind of have a higher priority.
It puts the Pyras down to the cost of GLH, if you include the regular lighthouse.

Also if it means we need to pick between Oracle, GLH and fast expansion (iam not sure all of these is possible), Oracle >>> Currency is surely better. It gives only 1 early trade route more, but includes the Capital and is one important tech out of the way. And opens up trade possibilities with AIs eventually.

Not to mention that we might also have to make early war preperations, i don't see where we could fit GLH in without cutting down on our flexibility.

 

[Gumbolt]

Mylene has a point about capital not being coastal.

The simple ploy is to play for Oracle/currency and mids and aim to capture the GLH.

PD did claims last game that they wondered if GLH was even needed but there are 2 more Ai this game and a possible barb unit or city to destroy.

All I am trying to do is establish what is possible from this start. OSS at 59 points at 3200bc have gone mining. pretty sure on that.

As for settler first. Those 5 extra turns means you are working the gems on T1.

I think it is clear at present that mining/bronze working seems way to go for now. I think we should play till mining when the next decision arrives. Grow capital to size 3 and consider if we go:

1. Settler/worker
2. worker/worker/settler with chops.

Remember each chop we don't use now could be used later with maths. I am up next.

Turnset plan!

Tech to mining

Worker to work sheep. Then move to cows and build pasture. Then farm corn.

City builds capital - warrior.

Warrior exploration. Explore current area then either protect area for settler or head back north. I would like to keep him alive!

I could play on till part of BW is done but we need to decide worker/worker or setter at size 3. Also if we want to complete the 2nd warrior before starting settler/workers.

 

[Mylene]

Gumi if BW first (i still think it is the best pick by far), def. a 2nd worker to make good use of it.

 

[vranasm]

Gumi if BW first (i still think it is the best pick by far), def. a 2nd worker to make good use of it.

I think my spreadsheet really confirms that worker 2 is superior.

Gum don't forget that the gem will be unimproved. You would have edge if you said that we can chop the scouting work boat sooner though!

I wouldn't improve gems before wheat anyway... remember... food over commerce.

and it's actually

worker/settler or settler/worker, the first worker can't be count in variant 2 since you will already have the first one.