Note that there is a Japanese Galley south of Dehli that could be carrying a settler. If he settles in a pocket surrounded by our culture, it will be annoying, but may be more likely to have Hinduism spread.
SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
Great turn set, Walter_Wolf!
Sun Tzu Wu
Sun Tzu Wu
bcool
Deity
detailed PPP looks good, just a few questions/suggestions.
I would like to skip aesthetics/lit and go for IW, compass as you described.
DeerGold might want to build research instead of the archers you put at the end (I understand they would be MP, but perhaps the axes we have are enough?)
CowTown
Perhaps it wants to build a settler instead of a temple/monastery. The settler could be given to Toku for diplo gains and hindu spreading perhaps. (He could be dragged into a holy war with shaka or hammy if we are still at war).
If you pass on the settler I think it makes sense to go Monastery then temple (for the small gain in research from the monastery) And if you pass on the settler (I would build research instead of a barracks)
If we do build a settler for Toku, we need to look for a place to build a missionary as well. I assume we could do this in CowTown as well while it grows. for a settler whip.
I'm okay with any tech gift as the initial tech trade/gift. The +4 diplo happens in my experience only on the first turn that you meet an AI (am I wrong?) Does the +4 diplo window last for more than 1 turn? The +4 diplo works in an unbalanced trade as well as a gift situation too.
Delhi might be better off building a monastery before a library.
I would like to skip aesthetics/lit and go for IW, compass as you described.
DeerGold might want to build research instead of the archers you put at the end (I understand they would be MP, but perhaps the axes we have are enough?)
CowTown
Perhaps it wants to build a settler instead of a temple/monastery. The settler could be given to Toku for diplo gains and hindu spreading perhaps. (He could be dragged into a holy war with shaka or hammy if we are still at war).
If you pass on the settler I think it makes sense to go Monastery then temple (for the small gain in research from the monastery) And if you pass on the settler (I would build research instead of a barracks)
If we do build a settler for Toku, we need to look for a place to build a missionary as well. I assume we could do this in CowTown as well while it grows. for a settler whip.
I'm okay with any tech gift as the initial tech trade/gift. The +4 diplo happens in my experience only on the first turn that you meet an AI (am I wrong?) Does the +4 diplo window last for more than 1 turn? The +4 diplo works in an unbalanced trade as well as a gift situation too.
Delhi might be better off building a monastery before a library.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
Excellent PPP, mabraham!
I'm thinking that Aesthetics -> Literature is worthwhile to build The Great Library ASAP. The two free Scientists can be a huge boost. A test game would probably tell us whether its worthwhile or not.
We won't complete Construction in time for this Road to be of value to our Spy Sneaky.
Can Fritz squeeze in a Road 1-S of our forested chokepoint; it may save a turn of movement for reinforcements from the South.
I even considered building a Road on the chokepoint, so we can possibly save a turn for units going to MP duty to other cities or if Tokugawa really builds up a huge stack.
Look for indications that Tokugawa has Construction. He will be a little more dangerous if he builds several Catapults, though still relatively easy to counter since the AI rarely builds enough to take a well defended city.
Check power ratios with all known Opponents.
Comments on Trireme damage infliction:
When should our Trireme attempt to attack enemy Galleys? Is it probably too soon to accumulate damage now though.
If we can locate Barbarian Galley spawning places that would be a good place for our Triremes to more safely accumulate damage, since Barbarian Galley probably defend at a disadvantage compared to a Civ owned Galley.
Sun Tzu Wu
I'm thinking that Aesthetics -> Literature is worthwhile to build The Great Library ASAP. The two free Scientists can be a huge boost. A test game would probably tell us whether its worthwhile or not.
We won't complete Construction in time for this Road to be of value to our Spy Sneaky.
Can Fritz squeeze in a Road 1-S of our forested chokepoint; it may save a turn of movement for reinforcements from the South.
I even considered building a Road on the chokepoint, so we can possibly save a turn for units going to MP duty to other cities or if Tokugawa really builds up a huge stack.
Look for indications that Tokugawa has Construction. He will be a little more dangerous if he builds several Catapults, though still relatively easy to counter since the AI rarely builds enough to take a well defended city.
Check power ratios with all known Opponents.
Comments on Trireme damage infliction:
When should our Trireme attempt to attack enemy Galleys? Is it probably too soon to accumulate damage now though.
If we can locate Barbarian Galley spawning places that would be a good place for our Triremes to more safely accumulate damage, since Barbarian Galley probably defend at a disadvantage compared to a Civ owned Galley.
Sun Tzu Wu
Walter_Wolf
King
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2011
- Messages
- 806
Looks like I forgot to report about the gallex. Not just that. I also forgot to check if it carried any units. I hope consuming the settler T90 won't cost us too much.
bcool
Deity
I believe the road 1S1E of SheepTown does come in time to help Sneaky.
Since we lost the pyramids and will not be using representation, I don't think the great library is going to help us significantly. I think it is still our hope that we can get by with just optics. So we have no plans to bulb deeper into into the tech tree with great scientists. So the only real benefit of the great library would be 6
and perhaps a late academy from the great scientist it will bring. The great scientist could be used to bulb something for us to trade I suppose.
If the great people points are not needed then the great library alone will not pay itself back anytime soon. I suppose it does open up failure gold opportunities. The parthenon too, but we would have no guarantees when that would be built.
In the end I would rather get caravels that much earlier and get exploring and spreading hinduism rather than delay everything to research aesthetics and literature.
I agree with STW that attacking galleys with our trireme might be a little premature. We need to be careful with the lone trireme. If it gets deep into enemy territory, attacking a galley might be a death sentence. 2 galleys almost always can kill a trireme. I would only attack a galley if there was little to no threat of retaliation by another galley that could be whipped or produced before we escaped.
Since we lost the pyramids and will not be using representation, I don't think the great library is going to help us significantly. I think it is still our hope that we can get by with just optics. So we have no plans to bulb deeper into into the tech tree with great scientists. So the only real benefit of the great library would be 6
and perhaps a late academy from the great scientist it will bring. The great scientist could be used to bulb something for us to trade I suppose. If the great people points are not needed then the great library alone will not pay itself back anytime soon. I suppose it does open up failure gold opportunities. The parthenon too, but we would have no guarantees when that would be built.
In the end I would rather get caravels that much earlier and get exploring and spreading hinduism rather than delay everything to research aesthetics and literature.
I agree with STW that attacking galleys with our trireme might be a little premature. We need to be careful with the lone trireme. If it gets deep into enemy territory, attacking a galley might be a death sentence. 2 galleys almost always can kill a trireme. I would only attack a galley if there was little to no threat of retaliation by another galley that could be whipped or produced before we escaped.
bcool
Deity
I doubt it has a settler. Toku was in full war mode, so the odds of a settler are slightly less. I could be wrong, but I think it is somewhat low.
I think the movement pattern (based on WW's screenshots) also suggests that it is not carrying a settler. I still thought it was worth a mention.
Edit: Great job WW! Great call to you code diggers on the Alpha/archery peace deal. I was sure you guys were talking out of your asses!
I am opposed to going down the Aesth/Lit line.
I think we need to set our sites on Astronomy. We may not need it, but it will likely make life a lot easier when we are sending out Settler/missionary pairs to spread Hinduism. Another viable means of spread is to sneak attack poorly defended cities, infect and allow to be recaptured. This will require more military units.
I think we need to prioritize Naval XP to get the Navigation promotions as a possible alternative to Astronomy. I would like to see GGs settled one coastal production city. Drydocks come with steel and will not help us. We may be in enough wars to get multiple GG. Another option would be to split the XP over multiple naval units to get 5 XP. This would be more practical for our early naval units, but I am afraid of losing the early units.
I think we need to set our sites on Astronomy. We may not need it, but it will likely make life a lot easier when we are sending out Settler/missionary pairs to spread Hinduism. Another viable means of spread is to sneak attack poorly defended cities, infect and allow to be recaptured. This will require more military units.
I think we need to prioritize Naval XP to get the Navigation promotions as a possible alternative to Astronomy. I would like to see GGs settled one coastal production city. Drydocks come with steel and will not help us. We may be in enough wars to get multiple GG. Another option would be to split the XP over multiple naval units to get 5 XP. This would be more practical for our early naval units, but I am afraid of losing the early units.
mabraham
Deity
I'll add some summary of the last 30 turns later today.
As I remarked to frogdude and some other civving friends over dinner last night, we noticed the threat of war about T67 when we had four warriors to our name, and 21 turns later we managed to get most of Alpha and Archery in the peace deal, having lost merely a scout. Really impressive guys - particularly DanF's code work.
As I remarked to frogdude and some other civving friends over dinner last night, we noticed the threat of war about T67 when we had four warriors to our name, and 21 turns later we managed to get most of Alpha and Archery in the peace deal, having lost merely a scout. Really impressive guys - particularly DanF's code work.
mabraham
Deity
I concur that Toku's galley is probably not carrying a settler, and so isn't a significant concern.
The road for Sneaky is on a tile four distant from CowTown, so it's not useful for moving onto the hill, whether or not we have Construction. It is useful for moving *off* the hill and onto Toku's road network.
DeerGold's archers are largely built from overflow at that point, so a research build T98ish is not directly applicable. I had archers in mind to help pad out our power, act as MPs and relieve the axes to go back to the front lines. Instead, we may want a spy from DeerGold to head NW depending what Argo finds (or where it dies).
I'm happy to start T92 settler+missionary combo in Cowtown on the theory that we can use it as a Toku-gift, or settle fish, or settle the island, depending how things pan out. This alleviates growing pains from Cowtown, too. I don't think a monastery is good in Cowtown before a temple, because there is negligible commerce output (so +10% might be entirely useless) and the Spiritual temple is cheaper, so leads to faster AP-hammers. Monastery makes more sense if/when we start cottaging.
Will look at monastery vs library in Delhi - the latter is 50% larger for 150% bigger multiplier and no free AP hammers. The length of time we expect to be at 100% science should dominate this decision.
Road to the NW front from Fritz is quite reasonable - perhaps more important than finishing that farm. Will look at it.
Agree to avoid combat when two enemy galleys are/might be around.
I tend to agree the value of GLib is doubtful without Rep and a bulbing plan, and without the certainty that we need deep tech. If we do need deep tech it is a while before it pays for itself, and manning up for pairs of scientists around the place may be better value.
I like the naval GG plan. Theocracy plus a settled GG only gets us to 4, which is not enough for navigation. So further wars or perhaps late Vassalage, or attaching XP to a unit might be needed.
The road for Sneaky is on a tile four distant from CowTown, so it's not useful for moving onto the hill, whether or not we have Construction. It is useful for moving *off* the hill and onto Toku's road network.
DeerGold's archers are largely built from overflow at that point, so a research build T98ish is not directly applicable. I had archers in mind to help pad out our power, act as MPs and relieve the axes to go back to the front lines. Instead, we may want a spy from DeerGold to head NW depending what Argo finds (or where it dies).
I'm happy to start T92 settler+missionary combo in Cowtown on the theory that we can use it as a Toku-gift, or settle fish, or settle the island, depending how things pan out. This alleviates growing pains from Cowtown, too. I don't think a monastery is good in Cowtown before a temple, because there is negligible commerce output (so +10% might be entirely useless) and the Spiritual temple is cheaper, so leads to faster AP-hammers. Monastery makes more sense if/when we start cottaging.
Will look at monastery vs library in Delhi - the latter is 50% larger for 150% bigger multiplier and no free AP hammers. The length of time we expect to be at 100% science should dominate this decision.
Road to the NW front from Fritz is quite reasonable - perhaps more important than finishing that farm. Will look at it.
Agree to avoid combat when two enemy galleys are/might be around.
I tend to agree the value of GLib is doubtful without Rep and a bulbing plan, and without the certainty that we need deep tech. If we do need deep tech it is a while before it pays for itself, and manning up for pairs of scientists around the place may be better value.
I like the naval GG plan. Theocracy plus a settled GG only gets us to 4, which is not enough for navigation. So further wars or perhaps late Vassalage, or attaching XP to a unit might be needed.
bcool
Deity
I like the idea of splitting the GG xp into 4 boats (and getting a free trireme to caravel upgrade). Four 4 movement caravels seems like the best use of GG that I can think of.
Early caravels with 4 movements seems strong. Stronger than waiting for a 2nd GG to settle. The only problem might be getting 4 early caravels/triremes in the same place at the same time.
Early caravels with 4 movements seems strong. Stronger than waiting for a 2nd GG to settle. The only problem might be getting 4 early caravels/triremes in the same place at the same time.
bcool
Deity
the use of percentages here is misleading...
If we assume Delhi is producing 15 commerce (currently 13)
then a monastery gives us 1.5
and 2 
a library gives 3.75
I personally think the hammers are better than just 1
but even if they were equal the cheaper monastery gives us about the same benefit as the library.mabraham
Deity
the use of percentages here is misleading...
If we assume Delhi is producing 15 commerce (currently 13)
then a monastery gives us 1.5
a library gives 3.75
I personally think the hammers are better than just 1
Yeah fair enough.
We still need four XP for a gg. Are we going to hope for GG points from defensive attacks form Hammurabi (lower XP yield). Do we risk mobilizing our Axemen see if we can catch some troops west of Hammarabi's closest city on open ground? How soon do we expect Toku to be bribed back into war. I have not seen a situation when an AI we recently made peace with declared right after the treaty ended.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 7,920
I'm not sure that 2t of a Worker's effort on this Road is worth a 50% chance of saving 1t of the Spy's movement (50% chance the Road saves 1t and 50% chance the Road saves 0t, depending on where the next river crossing is). There will be no ancillary benefit to having the Road until we have Construction.
Sun Tzu Wu
Walter_Wolf
King
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2011
- Messages
- 806
I updated the test game. The only difference between the real game and this one is I forgot to spread hinduism to Sheeptown, so it's 4 hammers short on the granary. All the other food and hammer boxes are same as in the real game. I updated the new revealed terrain, and even managed to put the same (238) bakers into math. I didn't update the AI military units (just the galley everyone talks about). Will do so if you want. We also have around 100 gold more in the test game. Don't know how to spend it before currency.
cheers
EDIT: actually, a wprldbuildered warrior upgraded t oaxeman and deleted would spend 80.
cheers
EDIT: actually, a wprldbuildered warrior upgraded t oaxeman and deleted would spend 80.
bcool
Deity
Any Toku can be bribed into war with us (even if they are pleased with us) If they are friendly with us they won't be bribed into war with us.
We do have the enforced peace for 10 turns, but yes it looks like Toku will likely be bribed into war with us again (so maybe a few archers are in order).
We do have the enforced peace for 10 turns, but yes it looks like Toku will likely be bribed into war with us again (so maybe a few archers are in order).
Walter_Wolf
King
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2011
- Messages
- 806
I could replay it and correct this if needed, but tomorrow.
bcool
Deity
If you go into the city editting mode with world builder you can edit the wealth amount manually.
Similar threads
