SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

[Walter_Wolf]

T88

We are at 0,8 (lower right corner) with toku. That gives hope .
Hammuragawa is willing to negotiate.

refresh this post every once in a while

This are the power graph and the demographic screen prior to starting the negotiations:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Corn is at 52/47 .

Theology bulbed.

Great news: our power ratio increased after the upgrade.

Spoiler :

so, on with the negotiations ...

... and this is the deal we got .

Spoiler :

spy in queue in cowstown

T89

Shaka DoW's us .

Taoism has been founded in a distant land

T90
Crabsville founded.

Corn is at 52/47.

 

[mabraham]

So after three axe builds IBT our power ratio has gone from .726 to 0.810 (measured by WW in game once we worked out how to increase the decimal places shown on the scoreboard). That's +0.26 per axe. We have the upgrade still in hand, but we lose the value of a warrior, so we're going to be very close to the required 0.833... but how close?

 

[mabraham]

It seems the powers are 124/153 (we grew in PigGems which perhaps DanF didn't account for in post #1560) since that's the only way to get the 0.8105 ratio. If so, since warrior is 2000 soldiers and axe 6000 soldiers, then the upgrade is good enough for the magic ratio. Checking the code now...

 

[mabraham]

Cheer, we got peace for archery and alpha. Well done DanF for making us believe it was possible.

 

[bcool]

Yes well done DanF!

So was it all worth it? (for the history books)

We built 2 axes (one whipped) that we wouldn't have + upgraded a warrior to an axe (80 gold) to increase our peace deal from the rest of mathematics to the rest of alphabet (we invested about 62 into alphabet) and archery.

I don't know how much we had left on mathematics ... edit (171/390).

 

[mabraham]

WW suggested a pause after the DOW. Since we haven't known Shaky long enough for it to be anything other than a bribe from Hammu, we are confident Shaky doesn't have a stack anywhere near, and we have our choke point and frontier city well manned. So bc and I saw no need for a pause.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

The save is on the server.

Upload turn log:

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 700 BC to 625 BC:

Turn 87, 700 BC: You have trained a Axeman in SheepTown. Work has now begun on a Granary.

Turn 88, 675 BC: The enemy has been spotted near SheepTown!
Turn 88, 675 BC: The enemy has been spotted near SheepTown!
Turn 88, 675 BC: SheepTown can hurry Granary for 1⇴ with 6ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 19 turns.
Turn 88, 675 BC: CowTown has grown to size 4.
Turn 88, 675 BC: PigsGems has grown to size 3.
Turn 88, 675 BC: PigsGems can hurry Work Boat for 1⇴ with 17ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 26 turns.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Hammuragawa is willing to negotiate.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Hammuragawa will trade Archery, Iron Working, Mathematics
Turn 88, 675 BC: Will Sign Peace Treaty: Hammuragawa
Turn 88, 675 BC: You have discovered Theology!
Turn 88, 675 BC: You have made peace with Tokugawa!
Turn 88, 675 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!
Turn 88, 675 BC: You have discovered Archery!
Turn 88, 675 BC: Shakagawa has declared war on you!
Turn 88, 675 BC: Shakagawa refuses to talk.
Turn 88, 675 BC: Taoism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 89, 650 BC: Deergold City can hurry Library for 2⇴ with 9ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 89, 650 BC: CowTown can hurry Spy for 1⇴ with 11ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 21 turns.
Turn 89, 650 BC: Tokugawa won't trade Mathematics

Turn 90, 625 BC: Delhi will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Deergold City will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 90, 625 BC: Crabsville has been founded.

And the autolog file:

Spoiler :

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 87/500 (700 BC) [31-Mar-2012 01:34:48]
A Farm was built near Deergold City
SheepTown begins: Axeman (4 turns)
Research begun: Alphabet (8 Turns)
100% Research: 50 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -21 per turn, 481 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Delhi
The whip was applied in SheepTown
Delhi finishes: Settler
Deergold City finishes: Axeman
SheepTown finishes: Axeman
CowTown grows to size 4
CowTown finishes: Axeman
PigsGems grows to size 3

Turn 88/500 (675 BC) [31-Mar-2012 01:40:44]
Delhi begins: Library (5 turns)
Deergold City begins: Library (9 turns)
CowTown begins: Barracks (5 turns)
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Theology
Research begun: Mathematics (5 Turns)
Delhi begins: The Apostolic Palace (19 turns)
A Mine was built near Deergold City
Gandhi (India) and Tokugawa (Japan) have signed a peace treaty
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Alphabet
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Archery
CowTown begins: Spy (5 turns)
100% Research: 51 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -26 per turn, 380 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Taoism founded in a distant land
Attitude Change: Tokugawa (Japan) towards Gandhi (India), from 'Furious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 89/500 (650 BC) [31-Mar-2012 02:43:22]
A Mine was built near CowTown
100% Research: 51 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -26 per turn, 354 in the bank

Turn 90/500 (625 BC) [31-Mar-2012 02:59:00]
Bombay founded
Crabsville begins: Granary (60 turns)

 

[mabraham]

Great work WW!

 

[bcool]

Nice job, WW and team! Turned a bad war into a win for us it seems

Walter_Wolf ... waiting
mabraham ... UP NOW
WastinTime ... on deck
Kaitzilla ... in the hole
Tachywaxon ... waiting
shulec ... waiting
bcool ... waiting
Sun Tzu Wu ... waiting

 

[Walter_Wolf]

T87 - T90 screenshots

I hope it works. It's 3:30 AM so I'm seeing double

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Maybe I should have skipped founding of the city T90, but I wanted to please myself a little bit .
I hope it's OK.

and to DanF. You're the man .


cheers

 

[mabraham]

I'm not seeing too much in strategic changes for this turn set. Here's what I think is important

• Finish T95 AP
• send SheepTown spy through Toku
• start DeerGold spy to send through Hammu?
• send trireme through Hammu
• prepare galley, axe and settler for island - it has a sheep
• finish maths and time out AP chops
• consider chopping forests plus whip into walls for fail gold in CowTown and/or DeerGold
• library for SheepTown
• another settler or two in Delhi after AP
• first WB plants on crabs ASAP
• next WB scouts island - clockwise or anti-clockwise?

 

[bcool]

MP shuffling (deergold will need a MP soon and Delhi)

I vote anti clockwise for WB scouting

what to research will be a small debate this turnset. Now that we have alphabet, I think it probably makes sense to skip currency (we can now build research).

Spy through Hammuragawa, hmm. not sure. depends on what the Trireme sees I guess.

Also we want to think about monasteries this turn set.

 

[mabraham]

I looked at the possibilities for abusing walls with chops and whips for fail gold. It's not great.

With walls at 48/50 hammers, applying a whip and 10 base hammers that turn leads to 22 hammers overflow (capped at 50 * 4/9 with OR and stone) and 16 gold to the bank, which makes sense as 48+30+10 = 50+22+16. Adding one, two and three chops on top of the above scenario added 30 gold each. So the chops are not getting value for OR or stone. Thus this seems a pretty weak way of converting hammers to useful stuff, especially since we can just build research if we are that desperate.

 

[mabraham]

Another reason for perhaps wanting Currency is that a cash gift in the first few turns after you meet a new AI is of huge diplo value, which could be a big leg up in getting access to quick OB and/or tech trades before they hate our religion so much that nothing is possible.

 

[bcool]

Another reason for perhaps wanting Currency is that a cash gift in the first few turns after you meet a new AI is of huge diplo value, which could be a big leg up in getting access to quick OB and/or tech trades before they hate our religion so much that nothing is possible.

A small tech trade works the same. Which assumes we will have a tech to trade them. I assume with no tech brokering that we probably will have something to trade most AI.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

A small tech trade works the same. Which assumes we will have a tech to trade them. I assume with no tech brokering that we probably will have something to trade most AI.

Which small Technology would we be able to give in exchange for Diplomatic value? We will have had to research that Technology ourselves too. mabraham's idea of giving a small amount of wealth ASAP after meeting an AI is far more likely to be possible. I believe giving the gift of Wealth on the same turn the AI is meant provides the greatest Diplomatic value per unit of Wealth given; The amount given to gain +4 Diplomacy for "fair trading" can be incredibly small in this case.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[mabraham]

Which small Technology would we be able to give in exchange for Diplomatic value? We will have had to research that Technology ourselves too. mabraham's idea of giving a small amount of wealth ASAP after meeting an AI is far more likely to be possible. I believe giving the gift of Wealth on the same turn the AI is meant provides the greatest Diplomatic value per unit of Wealth given; The amount given to gain +4 Diplomacy for "fair trading" can be incredibly small in this case.

Sun Tzu Wu

For example, all three Gawas lack Mysticism. Over the next little while, some AIs might lack one of Meditation, Sailing, Poly, Masonry, Mono, AH, Maths. I'm happy to use Theol for this purpose, too.

Unfortunately we missed the 1-turn window where we had Alpha and could have gifted Shakagawa Mysticism before he DOWed us

 

[mabraham]

Diplo
Even if we have war success (e.g. galley kill), don't bother getting peace with Hamm or Shaka without them giving us stuff
Gift deer to Toku in case it helps later, and we have another if we meet another AI who might benefit us trade-wise from it
Be prepared to gift small techs to newly-met AIs for big immediate diplo benefit. Is a Theology gift acceptable if nothing else will do? I assume an MC gift is not acceptable.

Tech
100% Maths, inserting a turn of research build from Sheeptown to get completed in 2 turns, then 0% on IW until AP completes (in case we get to trade for IW with distant AI), then 100% IW, then 100% Compass. Or what about Aesthetics-Lit after Maths?

AP
Resident election IBT95-6, vote for ourselves. First real vote will be IBT105-6. What might be available and how do we plan for it?

Espionage
Still on Toku, assuming he'll come again some day

Cities
Delhi (corn, fp, copper throughout)
T90 Engineer 2GMine, Cook arrives as MP, continue AP
T91 grow to size 7, Engineer 3GMine (no tile changes in rest of set)
T92 Cook leaves, replacement arrives
T95 AP completes, start settler
T99 settler builds, heads for galley, library starts

DeerGold (deer, gold throughout)
T90 GFarm 2GMine
T91 grow to size 6, GFarm 3GMine (no tile changes in rest of set), axe arrives as MP
T94 library completes, start monastery
T95 chop completes
T97 monastery completes, chop completes, start temple
T98 temple completes, start archer
T99 archer completes, start archer

Sheeptown (sheep, gold throughout; add corn whenever it becomes available, and make GMine available to Cowtown when corn is being worked)
T92 grow to size 3, GMine
T93 granary completes, start library

Cowtown (deer, cows throughout)
T90 GFarm GMine
T91 grow to size 5, GFarm 2GMine
T92 spy completes, start temple
T94 grow to size 6, GFarm 2GMine GForest (unless Sheeptown's GMine is available) - might need an MP now
T96 temple completes, start monastery
T97 2-pop whip monastery
T98 monastery completes, start barracks
t100 barracks complete

Pigsgems (pigs, gems throughout)
T90 GMine
T91 wb completes, start galley, GFarm
T92 2-pop whip galley, start trireme
T94 grow to size 3, GFarm
T96 grow to size 4, GFarm GMine
T99 grow to size 5, may need MP, start temple

Crabsville
T90 start granary, work quarry
T92 work crab nets
T98 grow to size 2, work crabs and quarry

Units
Name the spy Sneaky, head for Toku capital via Eiffel's new road and aim to get to the other side of Toku ASAP. If he's cornered by mountains somehow, scout the coastline for evidence of more land.

Name the trireme Argo, keep scouting Hammu's coast taking Alt-S notes on units seen. Seek combat where possible. Prefer to keep moving than loiter. Pillage seafood improvements where possible.

Name the scout workboat Magellan and send him counter-clockwise around the island, maximizing chances to see connecting land (so not cutting corners around peninsulas). If we find a barb galley, run for safety.

Name the galley Ferry and transport Cook to island to scout a city site. Return and wait for Hoover and settler out of Delhi. Scout in the opposite direction to Magellan if time permits before the next pickup. Avoid barb galley conflict, baiting as required to avoid losing units.

Cook to Delhi as MP, then leave T92 when relief arrives and move to load on Ferry and scout the island

Axes in Cowtown head to Delhi and DeerGold as MPs.

Axe 1SW of Sheeptown moves to Cowtown as MP

Newest axe on forest near DeerGold moves back as MP, and back to the forest as soon as MP relief and/or happiness permits, or some AI shows up with significant units.

Other axes remain fortified

Workers
Eiffel
T90 SE, mine and wake
T91 SE-SE, farm and wake
T92 NE, road on the hill 1SE of Sheeptown (for Sneaky to use)
T93 finish road in time for Sneaky to use
T94-7 mine
T98-101 SW, farm

Fritz
T90-2 farm
T93-5 chop 1W of DeerGold
T96-7 chop 1S of DeerGold
T98 move to GForest hill 1S2E of DeerGold
T99-101 chop GForest hill

Hoover
T90-2 chop 2N of Delhi
T93 chop 1S1E of Delhi
T94 chop 1S1W of Delhi
T95-7 farm 1N of Delhi
T98 cottage 1N1E of Delhi
T99- move with settler to galley

Karl
T90 cottage 1N1E of Delhi
T91-3 chop 1N2E of Delhi
T94-5 road cows (since health will soon become an issue for larger cities without forests, and we might want the trade value, and this is likely the last convenient chance)
T96-7 road 1N2E of Delhi
T98-9 cottage 1N1E of Delhi

Every turn
check if some AI will give us peace with them giving us some stuff
look for AI culture on globe view
save game
record corn tile culture
check tile micro, including which city gets shared tiles
kill Hammu or Shaka scouts if they appear
kill Hammu or Shaka boats
turn on show AI moves so stuff gets seen
watch for Toku build-up
laugh at Toku build-up

Stopping points
AP completes, if there's new AI contacts so that we can discuss how best to manage the diplo
AP is lost
new contact with AI from spy, boats or them finding us
don't bother stopping if a barb galley appears somewhere, but consider whipping the next trireme to cope with it

 

[shulec]

Which small Technology would we be able to give in exchange for Diplomatic value? We will have had to research that Technology ourselves too. mabraham's idea of giving a small amount of wealth ASAP after meeting an AI is far more likely to be possible. I believe giving the gift of Wealth on the same turn the AI is meant provides the greatest Diplomatic value per unit of Wealth given; The amount given to gain +4 Diplomacy for "fair trading" can be incredibly small in this case.

In my experience a small amount of gold gets you a large diplo bonus, but it also decays very quickly. I believe the -4 traded with worst enemy decays very quickly too.