SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

DanF5771 · Mar 8, 2012

bcool said:
The current thinking based on tests is that it is faster not to worry about bulbing anything with a great scientist. We can power through machinery and optics with fail gold and perhaps researching alphabet and/or currency to help speed the process by opening up research or wealth builds.

The bulbing paths with great scientists make the timing of theology awkward. So yes we plan to accelerate a great prophet out of Delhi to bulb Theology, but we have no plans to try and get an early great scientist.

I think the tests showed that it is problematic to get the 2nd GS in time for the Optics bulb, but I can't quite see the awkwardness of the GS->Machinery 1092 :science:

bulb. Is it really too late for the Theo-bulb -> AP?

We can get a clean GS out of DeerCow T93(550BC) or a bit earlier (1 turn @ 94% or 2 turns @ 88%) if we risk a little GProphet pollution from a temple-Priest. The GProphet can be produced 4 turns after that 100% clean or with minimal GE pollution 1 (96%) turn earlier. That would bring us to the Theo-bulb T97(450BC) the latest or T94(525BC)-T96(475BC) with moderate-acceptable(?) risk.

We'll have at least 5 forests to chop into AP through forge + OR and can bank whip overflow beforehand to complete the AP < T105(250BC).

bcool said:
So we do need a plan to get someone to vote for us...

1) Get a Buddhist to vote for us
What is the minimum negative for heathen religion? -2?
+4 trade
+2 open borders
+1 peace
+2 resources
+city liberation?
+/- hidden modifiers
It does seem difficult to get a Buddhist to +8 especially if the non-Toku AI are all religious fanatics

It's actually quite easy with Hammu and 2 liberated cities. Here is an example I posted earlier with a Buddhist Toku voting for me.
Many leaders will give only -1 for heathen religion if they don't own the Holy City.

Spoiler :

WastinTime · Mar 8, 2012

good PPP.

Since we are moving a bit slow, how about extending the turnset out to T63? (I looks like the planning goes that far anyway)

bcool · Mar 8, 2012

Since everyone has approved the PPP to T60, I think it will be faster to just play until T60 rather than extend the planning by 3 turns (builds for example haven't been specified) and have everyone chime in again.

bcool · Mar 8, 2012

I think the tests showed that it is problematic to get the 2nd GS in time for the Optics bulb, but I can't quite see the awkwardness of the GS->Machinery 1092 bulb. Is it really too late for the Theo-bulb -> AP?

We can get a clean GS out of DeerCow T93(550BC) or a bit earlier (1 turn @ 94% or 2 turns @ 88%) if we risk a little GProphet pollution from a temple-Priest. The GProphet can be produced 4 turns after that 100% clean or with minimal GE pollution 1 (96%) turn earlier. That would bring us to the Theo-bulb T97(450BC) the latest or T94(525BC)-T96(475BC) with moderate-acceptable(?) risk.

We'll have at least 5 forests to chop into AP through forge + OR and can bank whip overflow beforehand to complete the AP < T105(250BC).

Ok here are the advantages of not trying to get a great scientist to bulb machinery...

1) We don't have to tech aesthetics (468) or alphabet (468). Now teching alphabet has its own benefits, but it really is unnecessary for optics.

2) We can tech fishing when we want to. And I think we really want to tech fishing long before the great scientist will come. With fishing we can build a workboat and settle a strong Marble/Fish city much earlier (and this site is at some risk to Toku). And then with sailing we can start building the trireme that we want to upgrade to caravels long before we get close to optics.

3) Bulbing Theology earlier and building the AP without whips and chops saves the forests and population in Delhi. Instead the forests near Delhi can be used to chop into the Pyramids for failure gold that will further accelerate our teching. Or the forests can still be used to chop into the AP. Getting the AP ~10 turns earlier could be quite advantageous for several reasons. First, building the AP makes contact with all the AI that may have gotten Hinduism with random spreads -- which at the very least might mean we get a few discounts on teching things they know, at best it allows us to make contact with an AI that might be willing to tech trade with us possibly getting us alphabet for free. Second, the bonus hammers on the 1 or 2 monasteries we might build. Third, it gives us a bit earlier protection from Toku with AP peace vote or allows us to call a holy war against him in the event he declares on us.

4) I think it works very well in combination with teching currency instead of alphabet. Currency is a superior tech for accelerating our own tech pace for building wealth is better than building research (if we have any research multiplying buildings). It gives us an extra trade route per city. And it allows us to trade resources for wealth from our neighbors. (also allows begs but I don't expect we will have anyone at pleased for some time to come).

All of these advantages were seen in my test games that I played about 7 days ago and posted on the site, but I wasn't very clear about these advantages in my posts explaining them.

mabraham · Mar 8, 2012

bcool said:
Ok here are the advantages of not trying to get a great scientist to bulb machinery...

1) We don't have to tech aesthetics (468) or alphabet (468). Now teching alphabet has its own benefits, but it really is unnecessary for optics.

2) We can tech fishing when we want to. And I think we really want to tech fishing long before the great scientist will come. With fishing we can build a workboat and settle a strong Marble/Fish city much earlier (and this site is at some risk to Toku). And then with sailing we can start building the trireme that we want to upgrade to caravels long before we get close to optics.

3) Bulbing Theology earlier and building the AP without whips and chops saves the forests and population in Delhi. Instead the forests near Delhi can be used to chop into the Pyramids for failure gold that will further accelerate our teching. Or the forests can still be used to chop into the AP. Getting the AP ~10 turns earlier could be quite advantageous for several reasons. First, building the AP makes contact with all the AI that may have gotten Hinduism with random spreads -- which at the very least might mean we get a few discounts on teching things they know, at best it allows us to make contact with an AI that might be willing to tech trade with us possibly getting us alphabet for free. Second, the bonus hammers on the 1 or 2 monasteries we might build. Third, it gives us a bit earlier protection from Toku with AP peace vote or allows us to call a holy war against him in the event he declares on us.

4) I think it works very well in combination with teching currency instead of alphabet. Currency is a superior tech for accelerating our own tech pace for building wealth is better than building research (if we have any research multiplying buildings). It gives us an extra trade route per city. And it allows us to trade resources for wealth from our neighbors. (also allows begs but I don't expect we will have anyone at pleased for some time to come).

All of these advantages were seen in my test games that I played about 7 days ago and posted on the site, but I wasn't very clear about these advantages in my posts explaining them.

Yeah. Also AP gives hammers to the Kashi, so earlier is better. And earlier fishing means earlier sailing means earlier exploration of that island and earlier galley-settling for the improved internal trade routes. Or meeting AIs on the far side of that island.

Kaitzilla · Mar 8, 2012

I've updated the PPP with some minor changes, and will begin playing in 90 minutes if there are no objections.

Desoto will move to reinforce Amundsen in case that barb lion heads north to threaten all those workers and the settler. If the lion stays put, he will head back to where he started.

Amundsen will be promoted to medic on T50, so that he is fully healed on T51 in case the lion moves north.

Animal Husbandry will be chosen as the next Tech starting on T59, but the slider will run at 0% to build gold. The overflow will be applied on T60, and Animal Husbandry will complete T63 if we wish to pursue it. Happily, that should also be the turn after all those workers finish chopping Oracle.

Espionage will be changed onto Tokugawa.

Deer will be gifted to Hammarugawa T50 to help build relations.

bcool · Mar 8, 2012

DanF suggested that lions don't move on to resources tiles (unless they are attacking something), so you might want to consider retreating to the forest 1N of the Gold with Amundsen either instead of upgrading him to medic or in addition to it.

The lion could disappear if we wait a few turns, so avoiding it might be the best course. Of course killing it on the hill at 90+% odds is probably fine as well. He has a full 25% fortification bonus there, so the odds are probably 95%+ at full health.

Kaitzilla · Mar 8, 2012

bcool said:
DanF suggested that lions don't move on to resources tiles (unless they are attacking something), so you might want to consider retreating to the forest 1N of the Gold with Amundsen either instead of upgrading him to medic or in addition to it.

The lion could disappear if we wait a few turns, so avoiding it might be the best course. Of course killing it on the hill at 90+% odds is probably fine as well. He has a full 25% fortification bonus there, so the odds are probably 95%+ at full health.

Ya, I plan on avoiding the lion if possible, but there is a tiny chance it will move Northwest and then North, endangering our workers. Having Amundsen at full health if that happens is probably the strongest thing the warrior will do the rest of the game, and a medic is always useful.

Thanks for the tip of lion not moving onto empty gold tile. I must have missed reading that and didn't know that :cool:

.

Will be moving DeSoto 1N1E on T50 to backup the workers without provoking the lion into a fight. Will rely on Toku's archer to fogbust down there for 2 or 3 turns.

mabraham · Mar 8, 2012

Prefer to avoid animal combat with a 5XP unit... we don't get XP from it.

Kaitzilla · Mar 8, 2012

Starting now. Will update progress in this post.

T51- Discovered The Wheel. Lion retreated southwest. DeSoto moved back to his fogbusting spot. Tokugawa is 2nd richest civilization. We are dead last with 8 gold.

T52- Revolted to Tribalism. Toku has a scout 1N1W of Cook now, up in empty Hamma region. Lion staying put on the forested hilltop in the deep south and shouldn't pose any more danger.

T53- DeerGold settled. Toku's 2nd City named Osaka, 4 pop, 1 archer defending.

T54- Gained vision on forested hill. Lion has vanished.

T55- Discovered Priesthood. Hammarugawa founded his 3rd city. Don't see it on zoomed out culture view. Burke moved SouthWest one turn to reveal sea tiles, no food.

T56- Unknown Civ completes Great Wall. Switching SheepGold to Pyramids T57-T58. Will apply 100% science slider T59 so we can complete Animal Husbandry 1 turn sooner later.

T57- Recieve 130 fail gold.

T58- Judaism founded by distant civ. Dehli border expands, no barbs of any kind in our lands. DeSoto explored 1S1W and found crabs 2S1E of Banana. Osaka Toku's Corn city now has 2 culture according to Victory Screen and has shrunk to 2 pop from 4. SheepGold has 5 culture.

T59- Pottery discovered. Osaka now has 2 archers and 4 culture.

T60- No events occured at start.

Turnset Complete

Manco Capac · Mar 8, 2012

Kaitzilla said:
Hammarugawa founded his 3rd city. Don't see it on zoomed out culture view.

You need to look his surroundings once again because even though the black fog is gone, the culture patterns aren't updated without updates of exploration.

But, if he founded the city in his south, then, we may see updates of textures just like the corn change of texture DanF presented a while back. Or a forest sudden disappearance, sign of settling location.

mabraham · Mar 8, 2012

Well done Kaitzilla!

Kaitzilla said:
Starting now. Will update progress in this post.

T51- Discovered The Wheel. Lion retreated southwest. DeSoto moved back to his fogbusting spot. Tokugawa is 2nd richest civilization. We are dead last with 8 gold.

T52- Revolted to Tribalism. Toku has a scout 1N1W of Cook now, up in empty Hamma region. Lion staying put on the forested hilltop in the deep south and shouldn't pose any more danger.

T53- DeerGold settled. Toku's 2nd City named Osaka, 4 pop, 1 archer defending.

T54- Gained vision on forested hill. Lion has vanished.

T55- Discovered Priesthood. Hammarugawa founded his 3rd city. Don't see it on zoomed out culture view. Burke moved SouthWest one turn to reveal sea tiles, no food.

T56- Unknown Civ completes Great Wall. Switching SheepGold to Pyramids T57-T58. Will apply 100% science slider T59 so we can complete Animal Husbandry 1 turn sooner later.

T57- Recieve 130 fail gold.

T58- Judaism founded by distant civ. Dehli border expands, no barbs of any kind in our lands. DeSoto explored 1S1W and found crabs 2S1E of Banana. Osaka Toku's Corn city now has 2 culture according to Victory Screen and has shrunk to 2 pop from 4. SheepGold has 5 culture.

T59- Pottery discovered. Osaka now has 2 archers and 4 culture.

T60- No events occured at start.

Turnset Complete

We now have two potential southern city sites with seafood and some hills for building the boats we presume we'll want. Each can access the marble tile, too. We've done well to dodge barbs to this point. A correct position of De Soto will probably eliminate that concern entirely.

Kaitzilla · Mar 8, 2012

Save is uploaded.

Turnset Log:

Spoiler :

Buffy Log:

Spoiler :

Before and after Hamma settled his 3rd city. Don't have a screenshot for T54 empty lands, but I have the save if it is really important to check.

Spoiler :

--------------------------------------------------------------

Empire Screenshots @T60:

Spoiler :

Military Situation and Graphs:

Spoiler :

Manco Capac · Mar 8, 2012

I can tell right away Hammuragawa third city is 1 W of cow. Because the grass tile has 1 :hammers:

, which represents city tile and the forest is gone.

Toku of Japan got his third city I see.

They absolutely love each other from now on (friendly stance).

Kaitzilla · Mar 8, 2012

Tachywaxon said:
I can tell right away Hammuragawa third city is 1 W of cow. Because the grass tile has 1 , which represents city tile and the forest is gone.

Didn't see it until you said it haha.

mabraham · Mar 8, 2012

Tachywaxon said:
Toku of Japan got his third city I see.

We knew that from last turn set - see http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t276/DANE3E3/T50mainshot.jpg in the PPP

bcool · Mar 8, 2012

Nice job Kaitzilla! (too bad the Great Wall was finished early), Pyramids is just about as good however (at least until we start it in earnest in DeerGold)

Walter_Wolf ... in the hole
mabraham ... waiting
WastinTime ... waiting
Kaitzilla ... waiting
Tachywaxon ... waiting
shulec ... waiting
bcool ... UP NOW
Sun Tzu Wu ... on deck

I've got the save will try to get goal oriented PPP up shortly

Kaitzilla · Mar 8, 2012

Hmm, might as well keep making settlers and axemen until we can research Monotheism. Then it's granary bonanza.

Thanks to espionage, we see that Tokugawa has more than triple our power.

There is also a nice spot up by wheat for a 6th city.

bcool · Mar 8, 2012

Review of our Grand Strategy

The Grand Strategy

work in progress...

Goal Religious Leader Victory

Stonehenge early to give options for repeated city gifts later (and to help get early great prophets to build Kashi and Bulb Theology.
Assuming we need caravels to reach everyone we will take metal casting with the Oracle.
Maximize fail gold on the GreatWall and the Pyramids to power research thru to machinery and beyond
Tech either currency to allow us to build wealth to accelerate research to optics without any non-Theology bulbs.
Bulb Theology after we then research meditation
Explore the seas asap with caravels to assess what we need to do to win religiously.
Spread hinduism city gifts, missionaries, and gifted caravels (upgraded wounded triremes! to make sure the AI unloads the missionary) with a missionary in the case where we can't get open borders or random religion spreads.

Dealing with the Toku's

Is the current thinking that we just plan for a defensive war with them and use the AP to call holy war or peace? (going aggressive if we sense weakness?)

bcool · Mar 8, 2012

Kaitzilla can you update the test game?

SGOTM 15 - Kakumeika

Emperor

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Lord Croissant

Deity

Lord Croissant

Deity

Lord Croissant

Friday,13 June,I Collapse

Deity

Lord Croissant

Friday,13 June,I Collapse

Lord Croissant

Deity

Deity

Lord Croissant

Deity

Deity

Similar threads