SGOTM 15 - Phoenix Rising

[lymond]

TEST GAME ATTACHED
​

Ok....finally....a test game!

I put together the first run of a test save here, with the primary goal of testing out starts based on the what we currently see now. Of course, there is uncertainty as to what else certain city sites will provide that may skew results in the real game, but this is the best we can do for now. I used Pangaea, but fully expect that the map may be very different and, as a result, a better test map will be needed later. However, as a second goal - testing AP victories - it should at least provide a faster result for multiple play-throughs. I encourage folks to use the save to test the start and also practice AP games, especially if you have less experience with the victory type. Furthermore, it allows you to test theories and then map out the steps to achieve a successful and fast victory. We can then compare results and formulate long and short term plans. Obviously, there are many wrenches thrown at our plans based on things we can't yet foresee, but usually sticking fairly close to a plan and amending as we face obstacles works best.

Notes on this save:

1) Not sure if Neil is taking Unrestricted Leaders to the fullest. That is, will all AIs lead different civs or only certain AIs. I went full Unrestricted here. I hand-picked leaders, but other than Team Izzy/Toku, I let what civs may come. For Izzy/Toku, I just switched their civs. I tried to make sure we have a mix of more peaceful and less savory characters. I added Rag since Neil mentions the Vikings in his little story.

2) Iz has Bud and the Shrine. I'm not sure if Neil actually added the requisite techs, so left that alone.

3) Tried my best to mimic the starting land as well as forecast certain tiles unseen. Also, we have reasonable access to strats.

4) I switched us with one AI so that we were in the southern region of the map and then made the map adjustments

5) I hope I got the team thing right. I had to go into the code to make teams.

Overall, this is just on iteration of a test map. I'm sure will need another map later when we learn more. Feel free to create your own map if you we need to test some other variation. Also, definitely let me know if you see anything out of place with the current map. The eyes can definitely play tricks.

 

[lymond]

As for the first turnset, I think we should take a few days before starting in order to run some test games. I don't think we are in a hurry to start. Once started we will get rolling along fine. The start is obviously very important, so we will want to make sure we get this right.

I expect my turnset will at least get the worker out. At this point, I think we need to determine the best spot to settle and opening moves. Hopefully, doing some testing here will help give us an answer.

I encourage everyone with the time to run some tests. All feedback is welcome.

 

[lymond]

Alert! I'm getting some odd results here. I will update the save shortly. Issue is that the starting techs for some Civs are not correct, which affects religions. Not sure why that happen. Also, an AI teching Med is still giving a new religion, even though I went back and game Iz Myst and Med. Stay tuned.

 

[Mylene]

Not a big fan of testing games, but maybe i'll do later
I think some maths before settling tells us more about where we probably should go.

 

[lymond]

Ok...I uploaded a new save in the post above, but there is still a quirk that I can't seem to fix. Even though Toku/Iz start with Med, the game does not recognize that the religion from Med has been "founded". So it randomly assigns a new religion to Toku a few turns in as if he was first to Meditation. Any thoughts on this GB? Anyway, although a pain, it should not really impact early testing. Basically I think it means that when someone hits Divine Right there will be no religion to found and, ofc, if we get Theo first it may not be Christianity that we choose for a religion.

Other adjustments I made were just some errors around setting up the teams in the code and changing some civs to ensure we get Poly. I did not expect Rag of Arabia to go for Poly first.

 

[Gumbolt]

Ok...I uploaded a new save in the post above, but there is still a quirk that I can't seem to fix. Even though Toku/Iz start with Med, the game does not recognize that the religion from Med has been "founded". So it randomly assigns a new religion to Toku a few turns in as if he was first to Meditation. Any thoughts on this GB? Anyway, although a pain, it should not really impact early testing. Basically I think it means that when someone hits Divine Right there will be no religion to found and, ofc, if we get Theo first it may not be Christianity that we choose for a religion.

Other adjustments I made were just some errors around setting up the teams in the code and changing some civs to ensure we get Poly. I did not expect Rag of Arabia to go for Poly first.

Set the game as a world builder save with you playing as Izzy and toku. Edit in the religion on T1? It could also be that Neil used a GP to get the Shrine?

Of course you could give them med and let the game add the religion? Hmmmm tough call. Would need to play with it a bit. I have no doubt that Neil has tinkered with the settings.

Edit - Lymond that is very strange. It could also be another trick by Neil to establish more religions in the game?? Why would they get Islam so early on?? Hmmmmm.

As for other comments:

Bobby may be right about Neil gifting missionaries.

JJ makes good point about the land. The Stone city may secure more land from barbs and the AI assuming we are not in the middle of the island. Of course hard to tell if we are in middle of an island or what. The river comment is interesting.

I like Jesters logic on the food/hammers/commerce to size 2. The warrior would take a long time to arrive. It does appear the plains hill will offer a faster start without compromising the food for growth.

Will have a look at lymonds test save in a bit.

 

[lymond]

Of course you could give them med and let the game add the religion?

hmmm...that might actually work

shrine is easy to add in WB - that's not an issue

 

[Gumbolt]

Lymond! You are making the assumption that Neil fixed this lil problem. Perhaps he wants an additional religion? Perhaps the team Ai don't have the bud religion?

 

[bobbyboy29]

Lymond! You are making the assumption that Neil fixed this lil problem. Perhaps he wants an additional religion? Perhaps the team Ai don't have the bud religion?

If other religions are already founded that would appear on the tech screen or the religious screen no? We should know within a turn anyway...

 

[Gumbolt]

If other religions are already founded that would appear on the tech screen or the religious screen no? We should know within a turn anyway...

It may be that Neil has set up game so the team are on a separate island and we have a bunch of warmongers on our door step. Anything could happen really.

 

[neilmeister]

The game cannot perfectly handle religions being founded in WB.

 

[justjohn]

Wait a minute!! We have been blind and not checked things good enough. But first one comment.

If other religions are already founded that would appear on the tech screen or the religious screen no? We should know within a turn anyway...

Yes, only Buddism has been founded, so far. Others might be founded after 5 turns, but I don't expect that, actually. Read on.

The good people of PR, we have been BLIND. First a recap of what we know. From the diplomatic resolutions screen, we know that there are a total of 9 votes (=pop) out there, and from the demographics screen (population) we know that all presettled AIs have 1 city of size 1. Since we more or less know there are 9 AIs out there, it means all AIs are settled with a size 1 city, and that's it. (I am not sure if we can completely rule out the possibility that there are more AIs out there, not settled, but teamed up with one of the presettled AIs. I don't expect there are, and if there were, we would know it in one turn.)

BUT noone of us has so far read the Religion Advisor screen properly. Buddism has a 100% influence! Which means that Buddism is already spread to ALL presettled cities, which means that ALL AIs will convert to Buddism on the first turn!

Implications. Well, many. We are not just looking at a Buddism team of two AIs which might include a Toku personality, but when we meet the AIs, we might face a united front of 9 AIs! Are we sure a religious victory is going to be the fastest victory? I feel much less confident about that. On the other hand, if we delay going for the AP, and one of the AIs build it, then we are running a huge risk. A random buddism spread to one of our cities and we have lost, hands down.

We could of course hope that one or more of the AIs will found other religions and convert away from Buddism, but we cannot count on it.

This should at least make it easier to found Hinduism, since the AIs probably won't pursue another religion early. It might even be possible to research a worker tech first, but I'm not sure I want to take that risk.

What now?

 

[bobbyboy29]

Good job jj. This is big news if it is true. It actually probably makes the AP win easier. Only can we be certain that every AI has it's cap pre-settled and thus that every AI already has buddhism?

 

[Jester Fool]

I think controlling the AP is now even more critical. We just have to churn out missionaries non stop (to our neighbors especially). Looks like Mids for a GE to build the AP and oracle Theology is still the best bet IMO (even if only to prevent an easy AI win).

 

[Jester Fool]

Only can we be certain that every AI has it's cap pre-settled and thus that every AI already has buddhism?

Demographics advisor (1000 pop points i.e. city @ sz 1) and religious advisor (100% Buddhist) confirms this.

@justjohn : Good catch! Didn't notice this the first time I looked at the religious advisor.

 

[justjohn]

@justjohn : Good catch! Didn't notice this the first time I looked at the religious advisor.

I didn't noice the first time, either. And the thought struk me last night that I hadn't checked out this thing. I'm glad it did.

I did also played a quick test game, not all the way through, but still. In my game Toku founded Hinduism after 5 turns, and when I finished Poly, I had to choose another religion. I assume our mapmaker has made sure this won't happen in the real game.

The main problem in the early game was commerce, as expected. If I assume we don't want to risk researching Agriculture first, then we might want to grow to size 2 before building a worker. Or build it immediately and have it mine everything until Poly and then Agri is done. I think I would like to see the capital built before having an opinion. Unless we find generous commerce out there, we will need Pottery for cottages. But you all know this.

 

[stuge]

It actually probably makes the AP win easier.

How so? Do you mean that the AI are less likely to go quickly for theology now?

 

[justjohn]

It actually probably makes the AP win easier.

Whether this makes them go for Theology sooner or later, I don't know. But it might be easier in one respect: using diplo to get them friendly. Since they all probably will be buddists, it is quite likely they will have no worst enemy, making all trades much easier. If we can get a healthy tech lead, we can gift and trade all we want. But of course we will also suffer a penalty since we have a different religion. And if we have to go to war with someone, we might have big problems if they are all friendly with each other. (Declare on a friend as well as declare war on same religion.)

 

[bobbyboy29]

It'll be easier mostly because we don't have to worry about an AI converting to hinduism and having too many votes. This means that our vote alone should be basically enough for us to win the game.

 

[lymond]

Yeah, all we have to do is make sure each AI has at least one city with Hindu, Stuge. It actually can work out best if the AIs don't run Hindu themselves as it affects the weight of the votes.

However, it does pose a problem that we will be "in the hole" so to speak diplo wise from turn 1 (well, more like the turn we convert to Hindu). It doesn't hurt to convert some smaller/weaker AIs to Hindu as long as they vote for us.

I'm not totally convinced yet that all the AIs have Bud, but it is indeed a great catch if this is true. We will have to give this some serious though regarding our approach. I agree that controlling a Hindu AP is of utmost importance unless early conquest is deemed the best approach. I doubt that though.

we can gift and trade all we want

With 'No Tech Brokering' on, there will be some limitations to trading.

We might get some AIs to convert to Hindu to mix things up a bit. All the AIs that did not found Bud, did not found their own religion, or have Bud has a fave, will be likely candidates for conversion. The key thing we need to ascertain as the game goes along is which AI will be the AP rival. That is something we have to manage very closely.