SGOTM 15 - Xteam

[Htadus]

You make a good argument as it is "only" four turns. I think if Copper shows up in an accessible place, the reward outweighs the risk. If the Copper is lies away from our core or is non-existent, then the reward is negated.

Not sure the best choice here?
Need to look at some test save to see if the reward in development justifies the risk?

I am not so sure there is such a great difference in development by going either path. With fast workers there should be no loss of worker turns and I wouild like to see anyone whpping a unit in a hurry using TW. Are we saying that we can not learn the wheel 4 turns after BW?

 

[The-Hawk]

I am not so sure there is such a great difference in development by going either path. With fast workers there should be no loss of worker turns and I wouild like to see anyone whpping a unit in a hurry using TW. Are we saying that we can not learn the wheel 4 turns after BW?

The issue is not delay of Wheel... the loss comes from building settler -> worker vs. worker -> settler. If we research BW first, we have to build the settler first (otherwise it makes no sense). By researching Wheel, we can get a 3rd worker built before the settler. I was well ahead in improving because I had 3 workers doing the work.

I am tending to discount the value of early whip. The capital has so many powerful tiles, I think whipping will be for emergencies only.

 

[Htadus]

The issue is not delay of Wheel... the loss comes from building settler -> worker vs. worker -> settler. If we research BW first, we have to build the settler first (otherwise it makes no sense) I can not agree with this since it imply that a third worker will not have anything useful to do. Also the sense to me will appear int he form of knowing if wee need archary or not. As for early second settler. I am not understanding this either. I see advantage of settling the city3 by gem ASAP to work the gems.. By researching Wheel, we can get a 3rd worker built before the settler. I was well ahead in improving because I had 3 workers doing the work.See above

I am tending to discount the value of early whip. The capital has so many powerful tiles, I think whipping will be for emergencies only.

No dis-agreement here reagrding the whip.

 

[Cactus Pete]

The issue is not delay of Wheel... the loss comes from building settler -> worker vs. worker -> settler. If we research BW first, we have to build the settler first (otherwise it makes no sense [concur]). By researching Wheel, we can get a 3rd worker built before the settler. I was well ahead in improving because I had 3 workers doing the work. By building the settler first, we get a third city productive sooner and by chopping (instead of building) some of the 3rd worker, we get a bit faster capital growth. This has value similar to increased improvements. If we get a fourth worker started in Bombay, think we could soon have improvements in good shape relative to citizens available to use them. Roading will be behind, but the extent of that will depending on where copper is, so it's problematic.

I am tending to discount the value of early whip. The capital has so many powerful tiles, I think whipping will be for emergencies only.

Concur, but nice to have some emergency preparedness, especially if other things are about equal.

 

[zamint3]

So the million dollar question is risk. If consensus is to research BW first to mitigate risk of DOW, I'm OK with it. However, I think I would take the risk. It seems likely bronze will appear somewhere and we can pick it up with city 4 (if copper is not near the gems, I would still settle gems next).

I agree!

Did a test, building settler before worker in capital, and did worker before warrior in Bombay. I did not improve the stone.
I think it looks quite good!

View attachment Ghandi BC-1720 T44-T57 Wheel-BW test2 settler before worker in capital z3.CivBeyondSwordSave

Differences are not that big, and I don't think either way will delay Oracle.

 

[Undecided]

Just for clarification:
Will the warrior just started in Dehli be finished before the decision worker/settler or does somebody switch to it right away?
Assuming warrior finishes as the basis of this post.

The issue is not delay of Wheel... the loss comes from building settler -> worker vs. worker -> settler. If we research BW first, we have to build the settler first (otherwise it makes no sense). By researching Wheel, we can get a 3rd worker built before the settler. I was well ahead in improving because I had 3 workers doing the work.

I don't know why it wouldn't make sense to go worker-> settler and BW-> Wheel.
Seems like the best of both worlds. We get a worker who will never run out of stuff to do by pre-chopping instead of roading. He does come out one turn before BW but he can always put a turn in the FP.

I agree that the whip isn't desirable in the current position.
--------------------------
Wheel vs BW

I assume, that our next "big" goal is to get the oracle-> MC+forge combo going. (If this isn't the case, we really have to discuss which tech we want from the oracle, as this could make a certain techpath better). Especially the forge in our capital should be build as soon as possible after the wonder is completed in Bombay. Technically we have 6 turns iirc before it's not possible to get the GE before the GP, which is the optimal way imo.
But every turn we're loosing between oracle and forge delays the GE, which delays the GP which delays the AP and the following Gpersons.
4 Turns more preparation for the combo is better than 4 Turns earlier trade routes and higher chance of religion spread at this stage of the game. We also don't need to raise our happy-cap in Dehli immediatly because we'll training worker+settler in the next turns.

This is the main reason why i'd prefer BW over Wheel.

Knowing the location of copper earlier isn't bad as it provides the option of more accurate long-term testing, discussing city sites and developing a grand strategy for the game, but i could wait 4 turns for that if it's really necessary

 

[Htadus]

So it seem we need to make a decision help MP play the next turn set.

So far the preferances are:
For BW: CP, Undecided and myself
For TW: Hawk, MP
Either: Z3
Undecided: leif.

is this accurate?

 

[leif erikson]

Not sure this is the best way to handle it as I would prefer that the best argument carries the day and we believe that the mouse holder ultimately decides.

Having said that, what I am hearing is that there is no really big difference either way with regard to development and either way does not significantly change our Oracle date. Therefore, it comes down to security of our civ and the clear choice there, imnsho, is BW.

 

[Htadus]

Not sure this is the best way to handle it as I would prefer that the best argument carries the day and we believe that the mouse holder ultimately decides.
I am not sure what you mean by this leif, but even in consensus based decision making, one's position need to be clear and grouped. All I did was reading through previous postings and summarized. As for what MP is actually going to do, we will know when he upload the file at the end of the set.

Having said that, what I am hearing is that there is no really big difference either way with regard to development and either way does not significantly change our Oracle date. Therefore, it comes down to security of our civ and the clear choice there, imnsho, is BW.

So this mean you have now been recorded for aiding and abetting the BW leaning crowd.

 

[leif erikson]

I am not sure what you mean by this leif

My meaning was that I did not want MP to feel boxed in by a vote, that even with positions clearly stated, there is room for further discussion if he needs us to do so. Open mind does not necessarily mean undecided...

So this mean you have now been recorded for aiding and abetting the BW leaning crowd.

I hope what I wrote was clear enough?

 

[zamint3]

@Undecided: I like your T68 (Oracle + forge save), Priesthood before Pottery will get us Oracle sooner

Wheel vs BW

I assume, that our next "big" goal is to get the oracle-> MC+forge combo going. (If this isn't the case, we really have to discuss which tech we want from the oracle, as this could make a certain techpath better). Especially the forge in our capital should be build as soon as possible after the wonder is completed in Bombay. Technically we have 6 turns iirc I think it's 8 before it's not possible to get the GE before the GP, which is the optimal way imo.
But every turn we're loosing between oracle and forge delays the GE, which delays the GP which delays the AP and the following Gpersons.
4 Turns more preparation for the combo is better than 4 Turns earlier trade routes and higher chance of religion spread at this stage of the game. We have to take into consideration the Mids for faster GE and Temple for faster GPro, so actually the faster spread of religion, to be able to build a temple in Bombay, may be more important than forge one or two turns earlier, with early Mids the GE will come pretty fast We also don't need to raise our happy-cap in Dehli immediatly because we'll training worker+settler in the next turns.

This is the main reason why i'd prefer BW over Wheel.

I tested both Undecided and Hawks approach and there really is not much difference
(Oracle around 1440bc and Mids around 1160-1000bc, GE T80-83 and GPro T91-93)

 

[Mad Professor]

I think I'm ready to play. It looks to me like BW before wheel might be better after all - actually it was CP's test save that convinced me mostly. Then there's that lurking uncertainty about knowing whether we can grab copper sooner or need to whip archers sooner because one of our neighbours wants to declare war (which probably won't happen). Irrational I know, but it lurks like a monster under a five year old's bed.

So I'm ready to play a few turns - teching BW, startig a settler in Delhi after the warrior, and growth. I will stop immediately BW is in so we can agree where to put the settler - even though the settler won't be quite ready.

Edit: I'll start those turns shortly

 

[leif erikson]

Go for it!

Good Luck MP.

Haka time, good thing it is not snowing out yet.

 

[Mad Professor]

OK - played to BW. Accidently delayed one turn switching from wheel to BW but thankfully the only thing that changed was the settler and BW happening the same turn instead of the settler the turn after BW. After that I made sure I was fully awake and continued...

I turned autologging on, but I've failed to find where BUFFY hid my autolog file yet Some things I remember happening:

Judaism founded - T47 I think
Our two neighbours both founded their third city the same turn - T50
There was a list of the most powerful in the world on T51. Tokugawa was 4th on the list but neither Hamuragawa nor us made it into the top 8.
Stonehenge was built in FAL on T55

Current situation:
We have got BW, we've just finished a settler in Delhi
Delhi is sitting right on top of copper - we already have copper online there if needed.
Warriors have moved a little to improve fogbusting, one still has a short walk to go westward.

Questions for discussion:
1. Where exactly should the settler go?
2. What to tech for now? Wheel? We're already ten beakers into that thanks to me

I will attach the current save below. Nothing paused. Be careful.

View attachment Gandhi BC-1880.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[leif erikson]

Just downloaded the save.

For your log, try looking in:
D:\My Documents\My Games\Beyond the Sword\Player Logs
edit - C: or D:, wherever your My Documents folder is located.

 

[neilmeister]

Delhi is sitting right on top of copper - we already have copper online there if needed.

It would have been funny to watch you deal with 2 WHEEORN Toku's armed only with Warriors and harsh language, but that would be just too evil.

 

[leif erikson]

It would have been funny to watch you deal with 2 WHEEORN Toku's armed only with Warriors and harsh language, but that would be just too evil.

You had us a bit worried, but I see you came through in the end...

Looks to me like we're back to this discussion. Where will we place the Gem city?
Or is our next one north near the Gold?

 

[Mad Professor]

Just downloaded the save.

For your log, try looking in:
D:\My Documents\My Games\Beyond the Sword\Player Logs
edit - C: or D:, wherever your My Documents folder is located.

No such folder.

I think in BUFFY options I can specify the location. I might do that next time I play so that I know where to find the damned thing!

It would have been funny to watch you deal with 2 WHEEORN Toku's armed only with Warriors and harsh language, but that would be just too evil.

It's nice to know that though you're an ogre, like Shrek you have a good heart...

I think.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Reluctant to found gold/deer city next, as defending it will split our attention/forces. If we don't found it now, then barb city may appear nearby, which is not all bad, but barb may not settle a coastal city. Such a barb city would, at best, delay us settling a coastal city there. Therefore, urge that we settle gem/pig city on forest (#1), because we should get a coastal city for several reasons, not the least of which is finding out what's on the land west of the gems.

MP, did you post a plan proposing to build a barracks rather than a worker in Bombay?

 

[Mad Professor]

MP, did you post a plan proposing to build a barracks rather than a worker in Bombay?

Yes. No-one commented. Obviously you missed it...?

In case anyone is wondering by the way the workers in the current save... One was going to improve the stone and one was heading to pre-chop forest near Bombay in preparation for building the oracle there. I plan to re-evaluate worker moves before continuing, in particular making sure we have the right resources connected and enough forest pre-chopped before getting priesthood so that priesthood-oracle-forge happen as smoothly and as quickly as possible, and last time I did that analysis I built a worker in Delhi in the test file before the settler so I want to make sure it's still going to happen right...

If anyone has any comments along that line, now is the time to make them.