SGOTM 15 - Xteam

[zamint3]

My recommendations are in post #376

I think I would put city 4 on the originally proposed spot 1SW of the gold. A fortified unit on the forest choke point 1W of deer will take care of most barbs.

Playing until completion of Oracle sounds reasonable.

Good luck.

 

[leif erikson]

My recommendations are in post #376

Just for quick reference, here is a link to z3's post 376.

I think I would put city 4 on the originally proposed spot 1SW of the gold. A fortified unit on the forest choke point 1W of deer will take care of most barbs.

I actually agree with z3's recommendation for city site. I can understand that building it on the grass hill would make it better for defense and could easily live with that as we seem to be planning a nice, little, war anyway.

I'm not sure others have been able to get in given the server issue. So, please go ahead and good luck.

 

[The-Hawk]

I think I would put city 4 on the originally proposed spot 1SW of the gold. A fortified unit on the forest choke point 1W of deer will take care of most barbs.

Just getting back into it, not caught up yet. However, I agree with 1 SW of gold.

 

[Cactus Pete]

Locked out by server again. What goes with that? Makes SGOTMs difficult.

Green light from here, MP.

 

[leif erikson]

Yeah, server has been a cause for concern. The admins are trying a number of different things, mostly turning off features to lighten the server load.

edit - guess the server host has been working but haven't heard much about it...

 

[Mad Professor]

OK – I’ve played to Oracle. It’s T65. We have MC. I played shortly after my last post but haven’t got back online since until now.

The different number of beakers in the tech than the test game put me off a bit. Wheel came in a turn later than the test game because of that and I twice had to put some hammers into the temple of Artemis in Bombay (we now have 16 hammers in it which should result in some failure gold at some stage). It was little more complicated to manage than I thought it would be, but I think I did it OK.

Another complication was two (not just one!) barbarian archers approaching from the NW. One attacked the warrior there in the forest and lost fortunately, so one is gone. The other is still coming though and the warrior is now wounded. A small complication for the next player to deal with. There is a second warrior as backup.

Otherwise things went as expected. We settled gem city 1 NE of the gems and immediately improved the gems. I swapped from barracks to worker in Bombay and whipped it for one pop ASAP, then continued with the barracks, whipping it for one pop with 28 overflow (out of possible 30) going into the oracle. I managed the oracle on just two forest chops instead of three this time. We could have had it a turn earlier if pottery was in, but it wasn’t – another complication with the beaker differences I think, but no big deal. I did a worker in Delhi then a settler, and have nearly completed an axe there as well. The second settler is on the way to the northern site. I was heading him for the grass coastal hill 5N of the gems that we mentioned earlier, though I guess there is room for more discussion and a change there is necessary. The still living barbarian archer might complicate the settler’s journey…?

I’ve forgotten how to make comments on the save so I will carefully list the forest pre-chopping here. Please read!!
The forest 2N1W of Bombay needs only one turn of chopping.
Four forests near Delhi have had some chopping done:
The forests 1N, 1S and 2W1S of Delhi all only need one more turn of chopping while the forest 2W1N of Delhi needs 2 turns of chopping.

Conficianism was founded in T57!! Someone has CoL very early, and they did it without the oracle.

Here’s the save:

View attachment Gandhi BC-1400.CivBeyondSwordSave

I’ve uploaded it to the server. I’m done. Oh - this file is from my hard disk, identical to the one uploaded to the server, but is not a link to the one on the server - not sure what difference that makes.

 

[Mad Professor]

I found where BUFFY was hinding my logs, so here's the BUFFY log for these last few turns:



Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 53/500 (1880 BC) [19-Feb-2012 20:42:17]
Bombay begins: Fast Worker (8 turns)
90% Research: 22 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
10% Gold: -2 per turn, 2 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Gandhi(India) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 54/500 (1840 BC) [19-Feb-2012 20:43:45]
90% Research: 22 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
10% Gold: -3 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 55/500 (1800 BC) [19-Feb-2012 20:44:45]
Vijayanagara founded
Vijayanagara begins: Monument (15 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 18 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 56/500 (1760 BC) [19-Feb-2012 20:46:01]
100% Research: 26 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 18 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: The Wheel
Delhi finishes: Fast Worker

Other Player Actions:
Confucianism founded in a distant land

Turn 57/500 (1720 BC) [19-Feb-2012 20:46:49]
Research begun: Priesthood (3 Turns)
Delhi begins: Settler (6 turns)
100% Research: 26 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -9 per turn, 10 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Bombay
Bombay finishes: Fast Worker

Turn 58/500 (1680 BC) [19-Feb-2012 20:48:32]
A Mine was built near Vijayanagara
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 23 per turn, 1 in the bank

Turn 59/500 (1640 BC) [19-Feb-2012 20:49:36]
100% Research: 33 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -10 per turn, 24 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Hammuragawa (Babylon) towards Gandhi (India), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 60/500 (1600 BC) [19-Feb-2012 20:51:41]
Bombay begins: The Temple of Artemis (44 turns)
100% Research: 33 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -10 per turn, 14 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Priesthood

Turn 61/500 (1560 BC) [19-Feb-2012 20:54:18]
Research begun: Pottery (3 Turns)
Bombay begins: The Oracle (19 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 18 per turn, 4 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Bombay
Bombay grows to size 2
Bombay finishes: Barracks

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Tokugawa (Japan) towards Gandhi (India), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Tokugawa (Japan) towards Hammuragawa (Babylon), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Hammuragawa (Babylon) towards Tokugawa (Japan), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'

Turn 62/500 (1520 BC) [19-Feb-2012 20:56:09]
100% Research: 35 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -10 per turn, 22 in the bank

After End Turn:
Delhi finishes: Settler

Turn 63/500 (1480 BC) [19-Feb-2012 20:57:17]
Delhi begins: Axeman (4 turns)
Bombay begins: The Temple of Artemis (43 turns)
100% Research: 35 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -11 per turn, 12 in the bank

Turn 64/500 (1440 BC) [19-Feb-2012 20:59:29]
70% Research: 24 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
30% Gold: -1 per turn, 1 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Pottery
Bombay finishes: The Oracle

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild, Warrior (0.92/2) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 65.7%)

Turn 65/500 (1400 BC) [19-Feb-2012 21:01:57]
Research begun: Fishing (2 Turns)
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Metal Casting
Bombay begins: Axeman (9 turns)
Delhi begins: Forge (12 turns)
A Quarry was built near Delhi

 

[Mad Professor]

Here's the log the server gave me when I uploaded - it has the whole turnset, not just those last turns:


Here is your Session Turn Log from 2240 BC to 1400 BC:

Turn 46, 2160 BC: You have trained a Warrior in Delhi. Work has now begun on a Settler.
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 52, 1920 BC: You have discovered Bronze Working!
Turn 52, 1920 BC: Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!

Turn 53, 1880 BC: Gandhi adopts Slavery!

Turn 54, 1840 BC: The Great Wall has been built in a far away land!

Turn 55, 1800 BC: Vijayanagara has been founded.

Turn 56, 1760 BC: You have discovered The Wheel!
Turn 56, 1760 BC: Confucianism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 57, 1720 BC: You have trained a Fast Worker in Bombay. Work has now begun on a Barracks.

Turn 60, 1600 BC: You have discovered Priesthood!

Turn 61, 1560 BC: You have constructed a Barracks in Bombay. Work has now begun on The Oracle.

Turn 63, 1480 BC: Bombay can hurry The Oracle for 1⇴ with 17ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 24 turns.

Turn 64, 1440 BC: Delhi can hurry Axeman for 1⇴ with 26ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 64, 1440 BC: You have discovered Pottery!
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Gandhi has completed The Oracle!
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Barbarian's Archer (3.00) vs Gandhi's Warrior (3.50)
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Combat Odds: 34.3%
Turn 64, 1440 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 64, 1440 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 64, 1440 BC: (Fortify: +25%)
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Gandhi's Warrior is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 21 (70/100HP)
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 21 (49/100HP)
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Gandhi's Warrior is hit for 18 (64/100HP)
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 21 (28/100HP)
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 21 (7/100HP)
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Gandhi's Warrior is hit for 18 (46/100HP)
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 21 (0/100HP)
Turn 64, 1440 BC: Gandhi's Warrior has defeated Barbarian's Archer!
Turn 64, 1440 BC: While defending, your Warrior has killed a Barbarian Archer!

Turn 65, 1400 BC: You have discovered Metal Casting!

 

[Cactus Pete]

Nicely done, MP.

Suggest we move both warriors onto forest site for city 4 (along with settler, at least temporarily) and probably plan to move the axe in that direction.

Not sure fishing should be researched next, unless we are going to build a fishing boat first in city #4. IW could end up a waste, but map maker would have really been trying to make our life difficult to hem us in with no swords to fight our way out.

We need to hook stone, either directly or with a road to the river, and this would connect deer and city4 as well.

Won't we be able to learn something of Toku's resources if we connect a road to Osaka's corn?

 

[leif erikson]

Nice work MP, got us Oracle and Metal Casting and some shiny Gems.

Barb Archer looks like a bit of a pain. Agree with CP.

Updated Roster:
zamint3 - UP
The-Hawk - On Deck
Cactus Pete
Htadus
leif
Undecided
Mad Professor -

Thinking about getting to Construction and Cats soonest.

Do not see any Axes or Swords from Toku east, wonder if the Iron will be there?

OK, off to bed...

 

[Mad Professor]

Suggest we move both warriors onto forest site for city 4 (along with settler, at least temporarily) and probably plan to move the axe in that direction.

Yes, axe one turn away in Delhi, can march north. With the barb archer a lot unfortunately depends on the RNG. If that archer beats our the first warrior without taking much damage we could be in trouble until the axe gets there. On the other hand if he loses or takes a lot of damage he won't cause any waves.

Not sure fishing should be researched next, unless we are going to build a fishing boat first in city #4. IW could end up a waste, but map maker would have really been trying to make our life difficult to hem us in with no swords to fight our way out.

I was asking myself the same questions. Fishing is one possibility and is just a place holder. No beakers invested. Fishing does not need to be next if we don't want fishing boat as first build when that northern city gets settled. At worst that settle could be delayed a couple of turns by the barbs too.

We need to hook stone, either directly or with a road to the river, and this would connect deer and city4 as well.

Can happen quickly as the worker that has just finished the quarry can do the road straight away, and there's another worker which has just finished a road NW of Delhi that can continue roading north westwards from the stone. We might want a work back near Bombay now that we have pottery though - a cottage or two might come in handy near Bombay?

Won't we be able to learn something of Toku's resources if we connect a road to Osaka's corn?

Yes, if we can link a road to him, we get to see what resources he has two or more of at least as possible trade options.

Thinking about getting to Construction and Cats soonest.

Cats are going to be real handy. Writing and math have to come before construction I'm thinking though?

 

[zamint3]

We've got the Oracle and MC

Turn 59/500 (1640 BC) [19-Feb-2012 20:49:36]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Hammuragawa (Babylon) towards Gandhi (India), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'


Turn 61/500 (1560 BC) [19-Feb-2012 20:54:18]

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Tokugawa (Japan) towards Gandhi (India), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

I'm a bit confused about this, in game it says they are both 'Annoyed'.

@MP: Did you see any sign of axe or spear in Japan?

I've done a fast update of the test save. Still a bit ahead on research and Vija is a bit behind on hammers, the rest is about accurate...

View attachment Ghandi BC-1400 T65 test save z3.CivBeyondSwordSave

Later today I'll post my suggestions for the next turnset.
What do you think? Mids? Rex? Axe rush Toku?

I'm going skiing in Norway next week (sunday-sunday) but I'd like to do a short turnset before that.

 

[leif erikson]

What do you think? Mids?

Think we need to discuss this possibility as Representation gives us 10% beakers but, more importantly, +3 happies for our 5 largest cities. Do not see happiness as abundant in this game given our current knowledge of opponents.

Axe rush Toku?

Think we should test this. Not optimistic without Cats given CG1 and Drill1 promos. At least Osaka is not on a hill, but I bet the capital will be?

I'm going skiing in Norway next week (sunday-sunday) but I'd like to do a short turnset before that.

Can I come along too?
It is the only thing worth giving up Civ for...

 

[Cactus Pete]

"I'm going skiing in Norway next week" Cross country or downhill?

Value of Mids without GP farms it questionable. Those forests could be chopped for units instead.

Like to hear other opinions regarding next tech.

 

[Htadus]

^^
How about Alpha. We get to use spy's.

CP, if we start now, we can overflow whip axes into the Mids. The value of Rep is applicable with or without a GP farm. Consider this, any specialist....including a a mare non tile working citizen will generate 3 science. This is better than riverside cottage and a hamlet.

leif, what do you mean by 10% science boost with Rep? I think you are thinking of FR. Rep is Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat for any non tile workers and better with specialists.

 

[zamint3]

"I'm going skiing in Norway next week" Cross country or downhill?

Downhill, I'm hoping to take the Danish 'Basic Ski Instructor 1' (lowest level of instructor )

Value of Mids without GP farms it questionable. Those forests could be chopped for units instead.

We will be chopping 3 or 4 for the Forge!
At size 6 with forge Delhi produces an axe every two turns.
In two turns Bombay will have the corn and with some farms it could be a decent GP farm.

Like to hear other opinions regarding next tech.

Me too!

Think I would go Fishing (fast WB) - Monotheism (OR) - Writing

@leif: What's with the 10% from Rep?

Edit 1: Crossed with Htadus, yes you must be thinking of FR.

Edit 2: Tested axe against Toku archers. With Combat 1, odds are 25% against fortified garrison 1, drill 1 archers in a city on flat land and 15% if the city is on a hill.

 

[Undecided]

Great progress MP!
The reminder can be placed/deleted with Alt+S.

Looks like Hammy's great wall is already pushing the barbs towards us.
I agree with CP that we should retreat with the wounded warrior and take a stand against the archer with our healthy warrior near the future city location. Axe needs 5-6 turns to get in range.

As zamint pointed out, the next topics of discussion should be about mids and how we're planning to handle toku. Maybe we can do both?

I think that writing should be our next research goal. And we might also want alpha at some point in the near future for spies to get a bit more vision on our lovely neighbours.

We have to consider that we must build a road to connect city 4 to our empire because rivers only functions as trade route inside our borders.

We might save a couple gold if we move the warrior near vija 2E and the warrior near bombay back inside our borders in 2 turns. They'll still able to fogbust everything without the increased unit maintenance.

About testsaves:
I don't think that we can make test saves anymore that are 100% accurate. The research bonus for known techs by already met opponents will screw the results slightly. It's unfortunate that it already screwed a bit with MP's micro plan but i don't know any solution to the problem right now. Any suggestions?

 

[Cactus Pete]

^^
How about Alpha. We get to use spy's. Thought you were always opposed to self-researching Alpha in BtS, because you could count on the AI trading it?

CP, if we start now, we can overflow whip axes into the Mids. Whipping now will lose the use of good tiles (and should have two additional mined hills available in the not-too-distant future). If we're going to build the Mids, then would prefer to first whip granary into them. The value of Rep is applicable with or without a GP farm. Consider this, any specialist....including a a mare non tile working citizen will generate 3 science. This is better than riverside cottage and a hamlet. Except that cottage allows faster city growth.

What about Mono next, and delay chopping for forge until we have OR?

BTW, with forge giving us additional happiness in the capital, still not sold on Mids, certainly not on rushing to them.

 

[Htadus]

CP, on most games, and specially with Toku, I would be opposed. The problem is that then he will have spy's and we at his mercy.

As for Mids, Rep is not the only good option we have. With spiritual and the availability of PS, we can do many things.

And again yes the growth is limited in SP but we can only offord to grow to a limited size and the ability to run specialist at that point. The same slow growth argument applies to cottages when the tiles are food neutral.

I will get more involved tomorrow after finishing the current BOTM tonight.

 

[leif erikson]

leif, what do you mean by 10% science boost with Rep? I think you are thinking of FR. Rep is Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat for any non tile workers and better with specialists.

@leif: What's with the 10% from Rep?

Yeah, got my +3 beakers per specialist mixed up with my +10% science.
Ought to more.

And I agree with z3 on Fishing next for fast Work Boat, then moving on.