SGOTM 15 - Xteam

Mad Professor · Feb 25, 2012

Htadus said:
So you guys think a WB can do us more recon huh?

I'm a bit pessimistic about this. There are shadows of coastal mountains in the fog to south and west. I think the map maker has hemmed us in fairly completely. I think we're going to have to fight our way to more map. Having said that, a workboat is not many hammers and we'd be fools to just assume there was nothing to be found... :rolleyes:

Htadus said:
BTW, what is wrong with Osaka?

do we have any choice? I think no city razing means once it has been settled it can't be burned down - our choices are leave it Japanese where it is, or make it Indian where it is.

zamint3 · Feb 25, 2012

I haven't played, would have liked some more green lights. :mischief:

I'm off skiing!

Don't know if I'll have any internet access, so please skip me and let the next guy step up. :thumbsup:

leif erikson · Feb 25, 2012

No problem. Have fun!

Take some piccies for us of some nice ski bunnies... :mischief:

leif erikson · Feb 25, 2012

Updated Roster:
The-Hawk - UP
zamint3 - On Deck
Cactus Pete
Htadus
leif
Undecided
Mad Professor

How are you looking for time Hawk?

The-Hawk · Feb 25, 2012

I can sneak in the short turnset to Forge tomorrow. I will not be able to play past that, but at least we can begin debating next moves. Overall turnset goal is to research Mono, then put three chops into Delhi's Forge after switching to OR.

I am mostly following Z's PPP although I think I end up chopping a different forest than he did. I would like to promote the wounded warrior up near city 4 site to Combat 1 to speed healing in case the archer follows him.

My turnset plan:

Turn 65 (in progress)

Switch research to Mono, slider to 0%.
Worker NW of Delhi will go to grass hill SE of Bombay
Move both warriors at the gold site to the forest SW of gold (city site for City4). Promote wounded warrior to Combat 1 (to speed healing and for city defense).
Settler moving towards city 4 site.
Warrior S of Vija SE to reveal tile
Bombay: One turn axe. Going to take Artemis out of queue in Bombay so we don't accidently put unwanted hammers into it.
Warrior in Vija to city 4 site.

Turn 66

Delhi: Axe -> Forge
Bombay: Switch queue to start granary. Need to work gold all the time.
Vija: whip monument
Worker S of corn move to grass hill 2S of Delhi
Worker on stone will road stone
Worker N of Delhi will road the stone
Worker mine grass hill SE of Bombay
Settler to city 4 site 1 SW of gold.
Warrior S of Vija SE to reveal tile
Axe to city 4

Turn 67

Vija: monument -> granary.
Warrior S of Vija NW to fogbust
Research 100%
City4: (on the forest 1SW of gold) start Monument and work the gold
Warrior NE of Bombay move south to reveal the rest of the south coast waters.
Both workers on stone build road to Vija
Worker mine grass hill 2S of Delhi
Switch Bombay works sheep and gold after expansion

Turn 68

2 workers continue to road to Vija
Delhi: switch queue to axe

Turn 69

1 worker to the west of Delhi moves to forest 1 N of Delhi
2nd worker to the west of Delhi moves to grass hill 2NW of Delhi and mine for 1 turn (stop action this turn)

 
Turn 70

worker SE of Bombay roads mine
worker 1 N of Delhi road 1 turn (stop action this turn)
worker 2 NW of Delhi move S to forest and chop
Research to 80%

Turn 71

Mono -> Fishing
Revolt to OR
worker 2 S of Delhi move to forest 1 S of Delhi and finish chop
worker 1 N of Delhi finish chop
worker west of Delhi finish chop
Axe in Delhi move towards city 4
Research to 0%

Turn 72

Delhi: Forge -> Granary
Stop Turn

If the plan is good, I would like to play tomorrow.

leif erikson · Feb 25, 2012

I'm good with it. :thumbsup:

btw - Nice job in HoF Hawk. :goodjob:

Congrats to neil too. A Deity Religious victory... :hmm:

Mad Professor · Feb 25, 2012

Looks OK to me Hawk - that barb archer might be a fly in the ointment for settling plans of city 4, but your moves look the best to deal with it. Let's just hope to the RNG isn't super nasty to us.

Undecided · Feb 26, 2012

No issues with it, go ahead.
Hoping the RNG-Gods are Hindu. :please:

The-Hawk · Feb 26, 2012

Turnset complete, far from routine. We finished Forge on turn 71 as planned. However, we have not yet settled city 4 due to a sticky barb archer problem. All aspects of the forge plan went as expected, so I will only report unexpected issues and actions:

IBT

Barb archer follows warrior back towards city 4 site . (PS. I could not promote the wounded warrior in the real game, he is not ready for promo)

Turn 66

Since we are on forest, protected by river, and have two warriors, I decide to move the settler to city 4 site.

IBT

Archer kills healthy warrior at 32% attack odds .
A second barb archer moves to the same tile as the now slightly wounded archer. Wounded archer promotes, now has combat 1 and combat 2.

Turn 67

Warrior and settler flee south in a panic .
Warrior moving up from Vija joins them.
Looking at the force composition, I am worried about Vija which is unprotected. So I queue switch Delhi to an Axe and decide to move the scouting warrior S of Vija towards Vija (Togo scout is still down there to fogbust for us).
One other variation from the test game... in the real game, when Bombay border expanded, we did not pick up the corn.

IBT

Archers chasing warrior and settler.

Turn 68

Warriors and settler retreat to a hill and meet up with Axe coming north.

IBT

Archers still coming

Turn 69

I contemplate making a stand on this hill. 1 Axe, 1 healthy warrior, 1 wounded warrior. However, as I think about it, I decide that if the axe gets killed, we might lose Vija. We need the 2nd axe from Delhi.

IBT

Archers veer off towards Delhi, and on to an open tile.
We meet Hatsegawa of Egypt! You guessed it, he is Buddhist. He came up from the East through Togu's land. Hatty has four cities. Also has Alpha but will not make trades because he doesn't like us.

Turn 70

Delhi: axe -> forge
New axe moves to stone.
I decide to go after the healthy archer with axe 1 since they are on an unprotecte tile. Hold my breath and attack at 95% odds. Axe wins and is 4.3/5.

IBT

Nothing

Turn 71:

(Mono done, chops into forge)
Promote wounded axe to Combat 1 and leave him on the hill.
2nd Axe holds on stone. If it stays here, the barb archer will need to move to an open tile to head towards Dehli.
Two warriors and settler heading back towards site 4.

IBT

Wounded archer suicides attacking wounded axe on hill at 1%.

Turn 72:

Put granary in queue in Delhi, no other moves.

Save is uploaded for the next player.

Logs:

Spoiler :

leif erikson · Feb 26, 2012

Sounds good, except the darn barb Archers. :shake:

We have our forge

and a new nemesis, it seems, so can now look ahead to next steps. Off to look at the save.

Roster:
Cactus Pete - UP
zamint3 - On Deck
Htadus
leif
Undecided
Mad Professor
The-Hawk

How are you fixed for time CP?

Cactus Pete · Feb 26, 2012

Ailing wife. Doubt I'll have much time before I leave town for a couple of days Friday. When return, should be available.

leif erikson · Feb 26, 2012

Hope she feels better. :health:

Htadus, how are you fixed for time?

Htadus · Feb 26, 2012

leif erikson said:
Hope she feels better.

Htadus, how are you fixed for time?

Got it.

Capital: must hire a Engineer this turn to get a GE in 17 Turns. Are we cottaging this city?

Also, if we commit the capital for 12 turns to build the Mids, we may be able to have it. It can speed up with 2 chops. So what say you? If OK, FW(fast worker) 1 will chop the forest NE of capital. FW4 will complete the chop on the forest West of Capital before heading toward Vijay. Yes I will do a turn of farming along the way to the pigs. Mids will come in about 6-7 turns.

Please comment.

Bombay: complete grainary and start building Axes and spears. Need a minimum of 2 spears for north and south. FW3 will farm 2 river tiles before doing more mines.

Vijay: Finish Granary and start a missionary followed by forge or unit. Use FW2 to do a road on the plains tile before pasturing the pigs. Then road toward city 4.

City 4: I am going to take the damaged axe with the settler. Send settler with escort toward the city site. Start a granary/forge.

Question: Should we gift Hatigava a tech to see if that will make him pleased?

2 Turns @ 100% science (-12gpt) we can learn fishing. Then heading toward Construction.

leif erikson · Feb 26, 2012

Htadus said:
Capital: must hire a Engineer this turn to get a GE in 17 Turns. Are we cottaging this city?

Also, if we commit the capital for 12 turns to build the Mids, we may be able to have it. It can speed up with 2 chops. So what say you? If OK, FW(fast worker) 1 will chop the forest NE of capital. FW4 will complete the chop on the forest West of Capital before heading toward Vijay. Yes I will do a turn of farming along the way to the pigs. Mids will come in about 6-7 turns.

Please comment.

I'd like to go this way.

Do we need to test this? I am unsure of how the team sees this. What better value can we get for those hammers now?

Do we need those forest chop hammers for anything else? :hmm:

Htadus said:
Bombay: complete grainary and start building Axes and spears. Need a minimum of 2 spears for north and south. FW3 will farm 2 river tiles before doing more mines.

Vijay: Finish Granary and start a missionary followed by forge or unit. Use FW2 to do a road on the plains tile before pasturing the pigs. Then road toward city 4.

City 4: I am going to take the damaged axe with the settler. Send settler with escort toward the city site. Start a granary/forge.

Have we seen horses anywhere? I do not see them in the trading screens? Certainly need Axes!

Question whether we need some cottages to boost economy, get them growing? Capital can now hold 10 citizens, should grow to max and could have some work cottages.

Think taking Axe along is a good idea. :thumbsup:

Htadus said:
Question: Should we gift Hatigava a tech to see if that will make him pleased?

We could try with Masonry. What is the ultimate goal for doing so? He will soon dislike us due to religious differences, no? Both eastern Toku's have Alpha now.

Htadus said:
2 Turns @ 100% science (-12gpt) we can learn fishing. Then heading toward Construction.

Sound right to me.

How about a junk city for AP? Still a go or not?
Still unsure about Culture. :crazyeye:

Cactus Pete · Feb 26, 2012

Also question need for spears with horses unseen.

Is purpose of gifting tech to encourage a trade of Alpha? If so, can that be tested?

Mad Professor · Feb 26, 2012

The only reason I would not want the mids now is if we're planning aggressive moves against AI's and I don't think we should do that until we have cats. So I'm open to the idea of mids.

Corollary - shouldn't we be in a hurry to tech towards construction sometime? [Edit: Oh - I see Htadus mentioned that. I agree!] That shouldn't be higher priority than making sure we have theology and AP, but it's got to be very important. The more neighbours we meet the more I see we're going to need to get nasty to some of our neighbours to win by any kind of victory condition!

Agree that spears may not be best if we don't see horses anywhere...? Build axes instead. The aggressive unit builds though are important to remove a repeat of our barb problems and to remove our current "easy juicy target" label the other AI's have already no doubt thinking about sticking on us.

By the time we get the AP we need to know what victory condition we're aiming at before we go on from there I think. Buddhist Hatsegawa of Egypt??? I think we get the picture about the AI's in this game now right? What odds on every AI in the game being a buddhist Tokugawa clone?

Tech could be an issue, so the aggressive moves I mentioned should not wait too many centuries or we'll be outgunned - literally.

The-Hawk · Feb 27, 2012

Both axes need to follow the settler or we risk the same problem with barb archers. Only reason they did not leave with the warriors/settler was they needed to deal with the last archer.

Fishing -> cats for sure. I wonder if we should research IW after that? Might be nice to bring some swords along when we go to work. Or does this mess up our march to theo?

I'm still not sold on mids, it will delay war for marginal value. Mids equates to ~7 axes. I am anxious to get after our neighbors before they get away from us power-wise. We should be spamming axes now, then once construction is researched, spam cats. However, bottom line there seems to be consensus on mids, so I agree we should chop it out asap.

RE: Spears... I would have built a couple as well. Hard for me to believe there are no horses anywhere, but I suppose we can wait until we see evidence of them to build protecting spears.

RE: Gifting a tech. If these guys take Togu's leadership characteristics, I don't see any way we will get a trade out of them? Long way to go to get them pleased...

The warrior who had been heading north to Vija should go back south to fogbust the one dark tile. Once Vija's borders expand, then the fogbuster can return to be its MP.

leif erikson · Feb 27, 2012

The-Hawk said:
Fishing -> cats for sure. I wonder if we should research IW after that? Might be nice to bring some swords along when we go to work. Or does this mess up our march to theo?

Perhaps we can extort a tech or two from our neighbors if we beta them up enough and take a few cities?

The-Hawk said:
I'm still not sold on mids, it will delay war for marginal value. Mids equates to ~7 axes. I am anxious to get after our neighbors before they get away from us power-wise. We should be spamming axes now, then once construction is researched, spam cats. However, bottom line there seems to be consensus on mids, so I agree we should chop it out asap.

This is the type of post that helps. Getting a Axe force built so that, once we have Construction, we can pop-rush a Cat force may actually be a better focus for us now. We can always capture 'mids if built close enough but we cannot replace a missed opportunity to deal with neighbors.

Curious how long to Construction and how much slack time there will be during research. Will that be enough time to build sufficient Axes before Cats become available to complete 'mids. If there is sufficient time, we are also putting off maintenance on those Axes?

The-Hawk said:
RE: Spears... I would have built a couple as well. Hard for me to believe there are no horses anywhere, but I suppose we can wait until we see evidence of them to build protecting spears.

The real value of Spears, imnsho, is as healers, promoting them to Medic when we can. No objection to building a couple later, unless we think they can be used to kill a few barbs to gain the medic promo?

Htadus · Feb 27, 2012

Maybe I should try a different route to sell the Mids.

1: We try and lost = faster construction. Not bad, but we did loose 7 axemen. We will never get this back.

2: We try and get Mid. So now what, we still lost 7 axes. Is it bad? May be, maybe not.

It all depend on what we do with it.

If we run PS, then we can get the hammers spent on the mids by the time we spend 1000 hammers to build units. It is like 15 cats and 7 axes. We are going to be building a number of these units. BTW, we can copy the affect by building Forges too. MAy be PS is not that very impressive. But I find it to be very cool.

Of course, after having said that, the best option would be for one of the local AI's to build it but that only has 2 in 8 chances. 25% is not that bad.

Also about building units and not going to war ASAP, doesn't that cost science?

The-Hawk · Feb 27, 2012

You raise a very good point about PS. :goodjob:

We will certainly be building more than 1000 hammers worth of units. Might have talked me into Mids after all. Only issue is lost turns while we build it, so all the more reason to chop.

RE: lost science... we will delay research for sure. However, I think we need to get control over our continent before the AIs get feisty. Besides, captured cities will help us make up the lost ground, especially if one or two will support GP production.

By the way, the thought of captured cities also raises the need for courthouses at some point.

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