SGOTM 16 - Fifth Element

[AlanH]

Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 16 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the
Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

You can find the Game Details in the first post of the Maintenance Thread. If any changes occur in the game settings or rules, I shall post them in that thread, and edit that post.

Please wait until your team leader/administrator/scribe has reserved a couple of top posts in this thread for game admin information. Then post here to let your team know you have arrived.

Good luck, and have fun. Remember, it's just a GAME!

 

[BLubmuz]

Index of Fifth Element turnset reports for SGotM16:
The linked post has a link to the thread which opens the entire page.

SGotMs results page

Game start: 2012/09/21 - Game end: 2013/01/21


01- t000-020 - 2012/10/01 - Shaandore: SIP, worker first, mining - BW
02- t020-035 - 2012/10/24 - Folket: BW in, revolt, no copper - pottery
03- t035-045 - 2012/10/30 - BSPollux: played in many sessions. Writing in, Orleans founded.
04- t045-060 - 2012/11/02 - ZPV: Myst - Med - PH in, Oracle 1 turn away, settler for city 3 almost in place.
05- t060-080 - 2012/11/07 - Blubmuz: Oracle for MC, Alpha in, 3rd city founded, met Ramesses
06- t080-104 - 2012/11/17 - Shaandore: Traded for many techs, Math in, 2 objectives completed (t100 save and IW steal)
07- t104-123 - 2012/11/25 - Folket: first conquest (barb city) CoL in, HG lost.
08- t123-146 - 2012/12/01 - ZPV: 2nd Barb city taken, Tao founded, almost Edu, Cal+Con in trade
09- t146-162 - 2012/12/02 - Blubmuz: Edu and OU in, GP in 2nd city on the island settled, HE gained.
10- t162-179 - 2012/12/13 - Unclethrill: Brennus dead by our hand, 3rd objective completed. Optics, Eng, Feud, HBR and PP in
11- t179-200 - 2012/12/25 - Mastiff of Ar: first Egyptian war, Lib for Econ, took Thebes with >10WW, first GAge launched with the GM - reports spawned.
12- t200-219 - 2012/12/31 - Shaandore: 2nd Egyptian war started, MI in, SB declares - reports spawned
13- t219-237 - 2013/01/06 - Folket: Sushi in, Egypt wiped, SB stack vanquished, - reports spawned
14- t237-253 - 2013/01/11 - ZPV: Babylon Vassallized. Captured Sistine, built CR, Eiffel and 2 hit Wonders. 3rd GAge launched.
15- t253-2xx - 2013/01/xx - Blubmuz
.

 

[BLubmuz]

Roster:

Blubmuz - UP
Unclethrill - on deck
Mastiff of Ar
Shaandore
Folket
ZPV - resting

Standby: MeowZeDung (until he gives a sign) - BSPollux
Lurkers:

Best HoF date: No fixed VC this time!

TS xx short plan: (save turn xx)

Builds:
---
Research:
---

Strategy Key Points:

---

 

[BLubmuz]

1) never turn on any of the city automations. If this is necessary, inform the team.
2) never use automated workers.
3) never promote a unit right out of barracks: the first promotion will be given at the front. Naval and air units are promoted to C1.
of course if a city is under siege, CG1 will be given, or C1 if not an archer/GP
4) never give "go to" orders which can go over your last turn. Better: never give "go to" orders for multiple turns if possible.
5) Right before actually play, please check all the cities and the units in the field.
if a city grew on the saved turn, it's up to next player assign tiles and specialists - or verify if those accomplishe the TS targets.
6) Sometimes is not possible to have a clear majority on a decision. In case of a tie, the team-leader decides and his decision is definitive.
7) 24/96 rule:
7a) the player who's "up" must submit a "got it" after max 24 hours from the posted save,
7b) then post a PPP in 24 h.
7c1) Wait 24 hours to see any comment/proposal on the PPP
7c2) Post the eventual variations on the proposed PPP, to ensure the other Members he understood their comments
7d) play and submit within next 24 h.
This will be applied if there's no need to deeply discuss a TS.
In case a player can't play in that given time, he will be swapped with the one "on deck".
Better would be if he informs the team on his impossibility to play in the given time.

Fifth Element's Team Leader is Blubmuz!

Please also refer to

This thread (Viewing Threads)
and This other thread (Reference Thread)
for less experienced XotM players also:
Please Read: Welcome to the C-IV GOTM
and List of allowed & disallowed exploits & strategies. and this one for a new BANNED Exploit

 

[BLubmuz]

The Decathlon objectives are as follows:

• Humbaba --an advanced era barbarian unit -- must be dead (Thanks Leif). He is a real monster just like in BOTM 41, but now lives in a fairly secluded place.
  Kill him, that's all. We're ready for that.
• You own at least 2 Legendary culture cities.
  This makes me think to a culture victory: it satisfies 2 objectives.
  [*] You are EITHER the United Nations Secretary General OR the Apostolic Palace Resident.
  Ramesses has built the AP for us. We're AP resident. 4th objective competed! We can also avoid to research Mass Media, which is not needed for FT1.
• You have learned Future Tech 1.
  OK, this is the bottleneck, but also what makes easier some of the other objectives.
  [*] At least one AI opponent has been eliminated (conquered) by your team. - The first is gone, more will follow
  [*] You own at least three Holy Shrines - We have 4.
• You own at least three Corporate Headquarters
  Mining Inc and Sushi. One to go: Alunimum Co (good for research) or Creative Constructions, we'll see
  [*] You have stolen EITHER Iron Working, OR Astronomy, OR Physics using espionage. - Stolen IW, turn 102
• You fulfil the requirements for TWO victory conditions, at least one of which is NOT Conquest or Domination. (For example, your spaceship arrives on Alpha Centauri the same turn you get Domination, that’s two. If you achieve domination on the same turn as conquest victory, then you need one more victory condition to fulfil this condition. Understood? ).
  This is the hardest point:
  - Let's not consider both the Diplo (Ap and UN).
  - Space requires many hammers and usually you are on FT3 or better when you land on AC.
  - Culture, as i said above, is well paired with the 2 LCs objective and can be well timed if we manage enough GAs
  - The last VC is the military option: Conquest or Domination. Much will depend on which one is easier.
  To summarize, i think that a military VC can be paired with a culture VC.
  Spoiler :

  Techs not needed for anything: MT, MS, Fascism, Communism, MM, Robotics
  Techs needed only for Space: Computers or Laser, Fission, Ecology, FO, Fusion
  Techs needed only for FT: the flight path: Flight, AF, Stealth
  
  [*] Blazing: You must submit a save covering at least your first 100 turns – or victory or defeat - not later than 2 months after game start. - done, 11/17

To avoid to be accused to force my ideas , this post will be updated with the Team strategy once we have discussed it. For now, this is the draft.

 

[BLubmuz]

reseved 5

end of reservations

 

[ZPV]

Hi everyone! Checking in.
I've read the FE rules; they seem very reserved.

I'm in the UK, so am on GMT+1 until the clocks go back this October.

This game looks like a builder's "get as many early population as possible" scenario.

 

[unclethrill]

Hey all,

Looking forward to another fun SGOTM. I have a bunch of ideas and a test game already. I will post them all soon.

I'm in GMT+2 (Germany). I work nights so I should plenty of testing time.

 

[unclethrill]

Shandoore and I have worked on this test save. It has all the settings of the actual game and the visible area should be replicated correctly. Feel free to correct any mistakes you find and repost. Otherwise, a good place for everyone to start would be to run a few test games on this save to get a feeling for how the game will play.

 

[Shaandore]

Hi everyone!

I'm bookmarking this page to avoid the danger of misclicking in the SGOTM subforum. This should be fun! I have some thoughts about the game that I wrote down, I will post them soon.

I'm in GMT+2 as well. (I wrote +1 before but forgot about winter/summer difference)

 

[BLubmuz]

Hi all!
Welcome to the new members and to my old teammate UT. I think this is the 8th game we play together, but for some reason we can't keep other members in team... pity. Let's hope things will change this time.

Well, yesterday night i was goin' in bed and checked the forum. Since the forum rules impose that you can't post in less than 30 seconds, i copy/pasted something here and there.

I'll complete the job pretty soon.

More on the game later.

 

[BSPollux]

Hello everyone!
GMT+1 Germany for me as well.
I'm realy glad to see the prepared training game as i'm terribly rusted in

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

Checking in!

 

[Shaandore]

To start the discussion, here are my pregame thoughts:

1. Grand strategy: we need fast expansion, preferably by war as early as possible. We will need a huge empire for this game. That takes care of many conditions at the same time, and I don't see any means to go around this.

2. VCs:
Domination will be close with a huge empire, and it's easy to control, so definite yes.
Culture is also easy to control, and we could get it with some GP planning and Sushi hopefully.
Space is easy to plan, but is a waste IMO. For future tech 1 we don't need 3 space techs, and those hammers in the spaceship could be invested into research for faster teching to Future Tech 1. (And thus shaving off turns)
AP it will be sooooo dead by that time
time no way
conquest: domination is easier, and these can not be paired together

So this leaves us with Domination+Culture.

3. Large empire and warring needs strong early cities, and a solid cottage base is the only thing that will help us on the long run. We might also need some nice unit pumpers depending on enemies. Prioritizing early pottery is the way to go IMO.

4. Last, but this is the most important: Team efficiency. We are looking at a game with at least 250 turns. The later turns will be tedious, so we have to move quickly. It is better to waste a turn early due to unoptimized play rather than wasting 10 truns later due to playing sloppily during wars because of time constraints. (... or not finish until deadline)

What do you think?

 

[Mastiff_of_Ar]

I think we have to have an overall strategy as Shanndore noted, but also some "mini-strats" for grabbing certain points in the decathlon. I'll repost them all, with some quick thoughts:

The Decathlon objectives are as follows:

• Humbaba --an advanced era barbarian unit -- must be dead (Thanks Leif). He is a real monster just like in BOTM 41, but now lives in a fairly secluded place.
  
  Obviously we need to know where they are, so we'll want to scout and trade maps. Then make a plan to loose them from the mortal coil.
  
  
• You own at least 2 Legendary culture cities.
  
  Should be part of the overall plan if we're going Culture as one of the VCs
  
  
• You are EITHER the United Nations Secretary General OR the Apostolic Palace Resident.
  
  I agree AP will be dead, so we'll either need to be so big we vote ourselves in, or have friends. I think the former may be easier, unless we pick a couple tech traders to help get to Future Tech faster, and use them for both that and votes.
  
  
• You have learned Future Tech 1.
  
  Obvious.
  
  
• At least one AI opponent has been eliminated (conquered) by your team.
  
  Find the one (or more) most useless to us and be merciless...
  
  
• You own at least three Holy Shrines
  
  Build them? Take them? Both? Can they be destroyed if you capture a city with one? I'm not sure I ever tested it. Either way we want to remain aware of their locations when they are founded...
  
  
• You own at least three Corporate Headquarters
  
  Same as the Shrines.
  
  
• You have stolen EITHER Iron Working, OR Astronomy, OR Physics using espionage.
  
  This one is the most curious to me. I haven't stolen many techs. Are some easier? We certainly want to discuss which to attempt (all three?) and when. If we're way out in front, I don't think we want to end up waiting on some civ to discover a tech just to steal it.
  
  
• You fulfil the requirements for TWO victory conditions, at least one of which is NOT Conquest or Domination. (For example, your spaceship arrives on Alpha Centauri the same turn you get Domination, that’s two. If you achieve domination on the same turn as conquest victory, then you need one more victory condition to fulfil this condition. Understood? ).
  
  Discussed, and I'm sure will be more.
  
  
• Blazing: You must submit a save covering at least your first 100 turns – or victory or defeat - not later than 2 months after game start.
  
  I agree we need to keep on task.

Feel free to tear it up, I've been out of the game for awhile!

MF

 

[BSPollux]

A question and a thought: On a hemisphere map, are there ever pre-astronomy connections between the landmasses?

Else we might run into a trap: If we go berserk on our neighbours early on for expansion we want to have iron early on. If the remaining nations are researching slow we might have noone in range to steal astronomy from and by the time to get physics we will be first in teching anyways, wont we?

We should do some serious scouting very early and decide if our plan-to-survive neighbours have the potential to deliver astronomy at all. else we need to avoid iron to make sure we score that one. This would effect our war plans drasticaly.

Or am I missing something?

Edit: We should decide early on in which order we'll be playing. Because some people (cough me cough) wi'll need plenty of advice and depending on the task ahead that will vary

 

[ZPV]

We should play this like a space game, early on. That does not mean ultra-REX/rushing at all costs - instead it means developing a solid core of big cities to power through the Medieval->Renaissance techs. Only after that do we need to obtain a large empire.

Many of the decathlon criteria will take care of themselves (or rather, we don't need to think about them just yet). Of the others:

We can get UN (with a vassal voting for us, and our population whipped down to an appropriate level) + Domination very easily and cheaply. No need to invest 50000 commerce (in some shape or form) in a third city. If some backward AI doesn't have Mass Media (and face it, we'll be the only ones with it, so it's quite possible), we could even time the building of the UN to do a UN/AP double.

If we have (Stone or) Marble, we might want to consider building several early (between 1000BC and AD1) wonders in our future Legendary cities.

Iron Working is probably the best tech to steal - it doesn't cost much more than the free espionage we get from the Palace, the AIs tend to research it quickly, and we want to research Astro (Salons!) and Physics (Free GS) ourselves. The biggest setback to this would be if we're on our own small continent.

 

[Shaandore]

We should play this like a space game, early on. That does not mean ultra-REX/rushing at all costs - instead it means developing a solid core of big cities to power through the Medieval->Renaissance techs.
Agree.

Only after that do we need to obtain a large empire.
Depends on your definition of large. I think that 10 decent cities are needed to have the production base for a huge renaissance war. I had a game recently where I was going for space, and broke out in that era with cuirs. My production just wasn't enough to get to 20+ cities in that era, the other guys caught up. (I had plenty of time to war). IMO we need to go to war earlier if we can not get 10 cities peacefully. The important thing is to find a weak target, because slowing our economy for an all-out war is a very bad idea.

Many of the decathlon criteria will take care of themselves (or rather, we don't need to think about them just yet).
Agreed. In a recent game I was going for a big empire and with minimal attention I had the 3 shrines, the 3 headquarters, was UN sec gen when I won space (and I could have had diplo+space on the same turn), had future tech 3

Of the others:

We can get UN (with a vassal voting for us, and our population whipped down to an appropriate level) + Domination very easily and cheaply. No need to invest 50000 commerce (in some shape or form) in a third city.
Depending on diplo situation, it might be easier than culture

If some backward AI doesn't have Mass Media (and face it, we'll be the only ones with it, so it's quite possible), we could even time the building of the UN to do a UN/AP double.

That is rare at that time, but the actual game will tell if it is possible.

If we have (Stone or) Marble, we might want to consider building several early (between 1000BC and AD1) wonders in our future Legendary cities.

Some wonders are always part of the plan, but I would not build more than normal (save those hammers for expansion or infra). We will have sushi after all, and hermitage in one city and building culture in the other should do the trick. (we should test this!)

Iron Working is probably the best tech to steal I thought that too- it doesn't cost much more than the free espionage we get from the Palace, the AIs tend to research it quickly, and we want to research Astro (Salons!) and Physics (Free GS) ourselves. The biggest setback to this would be if we're on our own small continent.
Then I will go and show for the mapmaker

answers in bold

 

[ZPV]

If some backward AI doesn't have Mass Media (and face it, we'll be the only ones with it, so it's quite possible), we could even time the building of the UN to do a UN/AP double.

That is rare at that time, but the actual game will tell if it is possible.

Depending on the map, I think we're aiming for an early 16xx finish date, with a stretch target of 15xx. On this sort of timescale, Emperor AIs just don't research fast enough to all hit Mass Media.

 

[MeowZeDung]

Checking in. Hello everyone! I'm in the eastern U.S which I believe is GMT -6

My main thought going into this game is that the requirement for two legendary culture cities is the most "out of the way" of the objectives. If Capac, Pacal, Lizzy, or Ghandi is in the game, I think we are better of capturing two LCs (unless capturing an LC depletes a bunch of its culture, I am not sure about this) than investing in cathedrals and GA bombing when hammers and GPP could be spent more wisely completing the other tasks.

I think we should steal the cheapest techs possible for the espionage objective. IW and whatever the next cheapest was, I forget. Doesn't really make sense to invest a ton of EP to steal a late game tech we will likely beat the AI to anyway. So, early alpha seems prudent.

I'll post more thoughts as they come to me.

Edit: I like AP & Conquest/Dom as our two VC's. They kind of go hand in hand, ie we will capture the AP and control the religious situation by sheer force, allowing us to manipulate the timing of the final vote. Space carries the same advantages, and we're teching to FT anyhow. I'm really not sure I like the idea of culture as one of the VC's, though we could just commit to two high hammer cities wonder whoring like mad for the culture if we do decide to pursue a culture vc. It would be silly to rely on GA and culture slider though since we have so many other things to do.