SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika

[mabraham]

Our Tolosa SoD currently has 4 maces, 2 undamaged, two requiring 7 and 14HP, 7 siege, 4 chariots, and 2 archers. Testing shows that the Tolosa culture at Tolosa-2E does not vanish upon capture (T143) but rather the next turn. I don't know why, though klarius found the code for it, iirc. If that's true, the mace currently in Paris cannot join the SoD at Tolosa-1SE till T144 to move T145.

What do we consider safe protection to move our siege toward Bibracte? Are two full-strength maces enough? If so, we could not use the damaged ones during the Tolosa capture and heal them with a medic chariot in 1 turn, ready to move T144.

There won't be a medic chariot until T144, because it can only get the XP T143 (or later), so units can't heal with it until at least T145. Slightly injured maces will have time to heal while Bibracte is being bombed down in this scenario. (Or if we bomb down Tolosa, they have time to heal then, too.)

I'd be happy moving forward with a single full-health maceman unless there's actually a scary stack sighted (and I'd scout first with a crappy chariot). Even if Brennus attacks and does damage to a single stack-defending maceman, we still have catapults which are not exactly guaranteed to lose to axes and gallic warriors, and there's chances to pick up wins, too.

In short, I don't see how a city revolt helps us, other than allowing the treb to heal from 20/100HP to 35/100HP and allowing our siege to possibly attack Tolosa rather than only bombard. I'd rather destroy the Dun, save our eps. We blew a wad of eps on IW by not waiting for 50%. Since then we've bought a bunch. Why repeat that?

We have a bunch of EPs to *use*. Whatever we did with IW is history and doesn't matter. What does waiting to use them on Bibracte gain? What does not using them at all gain? Brennus is spending moderate amounts of EPs on us. The longer we wait the more chance our spy has to get caught. Bibracte revolt costs more EPs, and Tolosa bombing costs more siege actions.

You're right that the treb doesn't get much time to heal if it has to join in the bombing campaign. If it doesn't want/need to do that then it gets four turns of healing before tagging along with the mace from HC T145. That gives us an 80/100 treb to use, which could be quite tasty if there's a lot of units defending (which is really the only case we have to care about).

Bibracte will have 60% culture defence and Duns. Each catapult will take 4% of that? So our 6 cats will need at least two full turns of bombardment. Having the treb on board (at whatever health) will add 8% per turn, which is enough for full bombardment. So if we revolt Tolosa T143 and capture, and get back on the road T144, we arrive 1W of Bibracte T146, bomb T147-8, and perhaps capture T148 or T149 depending on the relative state of the armies. Four turns of healing on the treb would still see it having to cross the river to attack, so I agree not to heal the treb. Move it with the stack to Tolosa now.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

We should try to get 70 W in the beg this turn. Then trade maps+gold a turn or two later for more gold.

I plan to beg 70W this turn (140). If it fails, I'll do the Map trade for 25W. If it succeeds, I'll do the Map trade as soon as Ramesses II has 25W to sweeten the deal.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

There is enough Hammer overflow and organic Hpt to build a Chariot in Orleans in a single turn. Do we want to do that or proceed with the Maceman build. If Maceman, do we want to whip it in 2t or will organic building in 3t be fast enough (completed t43)? I'd prefer to grow Orleans some more.

Comment: I plan to build a Courthouse for 2t to grow Corn Fish Pigs to 6P, switch to the Settler and 3P whip it as soon as possible so Galley can take it to NE two Fish site. After Settler whip, continue Courthouse while growing back to at least 6P to be ready for future University whip. Rather than Courthouse, building Wealth may be a good alternative which preserves the meager < 10H overflow to the University build.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Well, our power has skyrocketed from where it was 15 turns ago, so maybe a 70g beg would work

Power is only a factor in demands as opposed to begs (target AI is at least Pleased). Demands always fail when AI/Player Power ratio is greater than 1.33.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Jungle Pigs could start a Spy t140 and whip it t141. It could move out t142 and still get to Bibracte well before our SoD and destroy the Dun at a somewhat higher cost. It won't get full fortification bonus, but should get very close to F25. Cost to destroy the Dun might be ~150E.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[mabraham]

There is enough Hammer overflow and organic Hpt to build a Chariot in Orleans in a single turn. Do we want to do that or proceed with the Maceman build. If Maceman, do we want to whip it in 2t or will organic building in 3t be fast enough (completed t43)? I'd prefer to grow Orleans some more.

I think we have enough chariots. I was surprised to see we built more after Boudica, but maybe I'll learn something

Comment: I plan to build a Courthouse for 2t to grow Corn Fish Pigs to 6P, switch to the Settler and 3P whip it as soon as possible so Galley can take it to NE two Fish site. After Settler whip, continue Courthouse while growing back to at least 6P to be ready for future University whip. Rather than Courthouse, building Wealth may be a good alternative which preserves the meager < 10H overflow to the University build.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sounds good. Happy to start a courthouse in CPF, but if there's a Confu spread then we should think about switching to one of those buildings.

 

[mabraham]

Jungle Pigs could start a Spy t140 and whip it t141. It could move out t142 and still get to Bibracte well before our SoD and destroy the Dun at a somewhat higher cost. It won't get full fortification bonus, but should get very close to F25. Cost to destroy the Dun might be ~150E.

Sun Tzu Wu

Bombing Bibracte down will take only 2 turns with all of our siege units (and if our maces are healthy, we might take it on the second turn). That sounds plenty quick enough to me, so I think we can keep JP doing infrastructure and the economy focussed on Edu.

 

[WastinTime]

Sounds good. Happy to start a courthouse in CPF, but if there's a Confu spread then we should think about switching to one of those buildings.

CPF didn't even finish the forge did it? Are you suggesting Courthouse to preserve a 2-whip on that building? I don't think this city is far enough from the capital to worry about a courthouse just yet anyway.

I don't think we should whip these cities down so small unless there is a good reason. Let them grow until they have an angry citizen. Or at least make it so we can keep the scientists hired after the whip.

 

[mabraham]

CPF didn't even finish the forge did it? Are you suggesting Courthouse to preserve a 2-whip on that building? I don't think this city is far enough from the capital to worry about a courthouse just yet anyway.

It has a forge, is running two scientists and is close to being unhappy even if it's one of our Rep cities. I'm suggesting a courthouse around the settler build for lack of anything better to do, and presumably STW has the same reasoning.

I don't think we should whip these cities down so small unless there is a good reason. Let them grow until they have an angry citizen. Or at least make it so we can keep the scientists hired after the whip.

Nobody has suggested courthouse whips that I recall, and I agree they're not a priority. STW suggested a settler whip, which may make some sense, but the timing of that will be outside this set, I suspect. We want population for ensuring timely university whips, if nothing else.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Nobody has suggested courthouse whips that I recall, and I agree they're not a priority. STW suggested a settler whip, which may make some sense, but the timing of that will be outside this set, I suspect. We want population for ensuring timely university whips, if nothing else.

Note that the Settler whip can be done with maximum Hammer overfow into the University. Also, I'm liking building Wealth better than a Courthouse, since that will preserve the Forge whip overflow of ~8H for the University build via the Settler build/whip. It also allows a potentially quicker Settler whip.

My plan was to get the Settler out before the end of my turn set at about t144, so it has time to regrow to at least 6P or preferably 8P, before Education is completed. However, I'm not sure it will have enough time to regrow fully. It's obviously not going to regrow building a Settler. Also, Deer Fish Pigs needs the Pig plot to grow fast enough. Well the Scientists in Corn Fish Pigs can be fired to increase grow rate by +4 Fpt; that may be enough to regrow in time.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Or at least make it so we can keep the scientists hired after the whip.

My goal for every city with a Library is working 2 Scientists, but a higher priority is completing a Forge, spreading Confucianism and regrowing so Hammer overfow plus Population is enough to whip Universities in 2t from Education completion (or when we decide to organically complete Universities in Paris and Orleans, if we decide not to whip them).

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[LowtherCastle]

We have a bunch of EPs to *use*. Whatever we did with IW is history and doesn't matter. What does waiting to use them on Bibracte gain?

You're right, if you don't learn from it, history doesn't matter. We won't use them on Bibracte because we have no spy there.

What does not using them at all gain?

They're available if we decide to use them later. Brennus will be alive for some time to come. What does a city revolt gain? Isn't that the real question here?

Brennus is spending moderate amounts of EPs on us.

How much Brennus is spending on us affects nothing. He doesn't have Alpha and can't use them. His overall ep spending is what affects our mission costs, not how much he has spent on us.

The longer we wait the more chance our spy has to get caught. Bibracte revolt costs more EPs, and Tolosa bombing costs more siege actions.

Our spy won't wait longer. On T143, he'll either destroy the Dun or pono T142 we move our ep slider to 10% for another turn and on T143 the spy incites a city revolt. How are "more siege actions" a "cost" if they're idle anyway?

 

[LowtherCastle]

the treb doesn't get much time to heal if it has to join in the bombing campaign. If it doesn't want/need to do that then it gets four turns of healing before tagging along with the mace from HC T145. That gives us an 80/100 treb to use, which could be quite tasty if there's a lot of units defending (which is really the only case we have to care about).

The HC Mace arrives at the treb on T143. So that's 45HP. If you let the treb heal to 80/100, it can't even attack Bibracte from across the river until T149. My idea was to capture Vienne on T150.

So if we revolt Tolosa T143 and capture, and get back on the road T144, we arrive 1W of Bibracte T146, bomb T147-8, and perhaps capture T148 or T149 depending on the relative state of the armies.

Okay, here you and I evidently have different conceptions of the Bibracte capture. I have been detailing my plan for a couple of weeks and I was always attacking from across the river. That's also why I wanted a full-strength treb to attack with. Attacking from Bibracte-1N or Bibracte-1NE:

• captures Bibracte 1 turn sooner
• captures Vienne 2 turns sooner

The way Brennus is cranking out units (check his power graph), every turn counts.

===

Since we no longer can count on spy info about Bibracte's defenses, we don't know what we'll face, so it might be wisest to move our stack to Bibracte-1N rather than Bibracte-1NE, even though it's flat land. From there we can see if an attack will work, but still have the option of moving to Bibracte-1W if Bibracte is overloaded with defenders.

Probably the wisest solution would be to attack T143 Tolosa with the two damaged maces, if feasible. That way the two undamaged maces will be able to use the 5/5XP promotion to heal after capturing Bibracte, ready to capture Vienne.

===

So this is the plan I would follow:

T143 Destroy Tolosa Dun; cats+treb bombard to 1%; capture using damaged maces+chariots; send one chariot to Tolosa-1W to hopefully pillage roads on T144.

T144 SoD moves 1SW
T145 SoD moves 1SW (to Bibracte-1N)

T146 If it appears capturable, bombard to 28%
T147 Bombard to 0%; Decide whether to suicide last cat and capture or wait till T148 (or move to -1W)

As always, plans are merely plans. Flexibility and adaptibility is always pre-eminent.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Note that the Settler whip can be done with maximum Hammer overfow into the University. Also, I'm liking building Wealth better than a Courthouse, since that will preserve the Forge whip overflow of ~8H for the University build via the Settler build/whip. It also allows a potentially quicker Settler whip.

My plan was to get the Settler out before the end of my turn set at about t144, so it has time to regrow to at least 6P or preferably 8P, before Education is completed. However, I'm not sure it will have enough time to regrow fully. It's obviously not going to regrow building a Settler. Also, Deer Fish Pigs needs the Pig plot to grow fast enough. Well the Scientists in Corn Fish Pigs can be fired to increase grow rate by +4 Fpt; that may be enough to regrow in time.

Sun Tzu Wu

+1

To whatever extent you are able to set our four outlying university cities up with strong pre-whip OFs, that'll be great for the next player.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Jungle Pigs could start a Spy t140 and whip it t141. It could move out t142 and still get to Bibracte well before our SoD and destroy the Dun at a somewhat higher cost. It won't get full fortification bonus, but should get very close to F25. Cost to destroy the Dun might be ~150E.

Sun Tzu Wu

Your proposed spy would arrive in Bibracte T145 and would be able to conduct the Destroy Dun mission on T146. This aligns nicely with my plan above, conceivably allowing us to capture Bibracte on T146, although that would require only moderate defenses on his part. As we all know, of course, BtS AIs are programmed to whip their cities to death to defend against SoDs, so every turn is critical. Speed is of the essence.

Another benefit of this spy would be T145 Bibracte city center reconnaissance.

I estimate the cost of this mission, with 0% discount on the spy, to be 210eps. If we destroy the Dun in Tolosa, that would mean about another 50% on the ep slider for 1 turn.

---

I would vote for this, if that's what you want to do. The potential upside of capturing Bibracte 1-3 turns sooner is worth the cost, in my opinion.

 

[mabraham]

Oh, I see we've been at cross purposes for a while. I've been reading "destroy the dun" as "city revolt" because the literal destruction mission never entered my mind as an option and people describe things imprecisely all the time! Sorry, I've only ever seen the latter!

So the destruction mission in Tolosa plus bombing would be more EP-efficient. (I'd been assuming your reluctance to do a revolt meant moving the spy to Bibracte to revolt there, or doing no mission at all!) Attacking across the river is indeed an option but we will see about that later. A spy for a dun mission in Bibracte is also sound, because the EP cost is much more moderate than a revolt mission. I am all for things that speed up the prospect of stone.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Your proposed spy would arrive in Bibracte T145 and would be able to conduct the Destroy Dun mission on T146. This aligns nicely with my plan above, conceivably allowing us to capture Bibracte on T146, although that would require only moderate defenses on his part. As we all know, of course, BtS AIs are programmed to whip their cities to death to defend against SoDs, so every turn is critical. Speed is of the essence.

Another benefit of this spy would be T145 Bibracte city center reconnaissance.

I estimate the cost of this mission, with 0% discount on the spy, to be 210eps. If we destroy the Dun in Tolosa, that would mean about another 50% on the ep slider for 1 turn.

---

I would vote for this, if that's what you want to do. The potential upside of capturing Bibracte 1-3 turns sooner is worth the cost, in my opinion.

Destroying both Duns was the original plan, so I'm fine with the above.

You're time table implies no waiting to heal and attacking Tolosa on the turn of the bombardment.

The Spy doesn't fortify at all in Bibracte. Sorry, I wasn't thinking of blitzing our SoD, getting it to Bibracte so early.

mabraham's idea of attacking Bibracte from 1-N has some merit. We may not be able to afford attacking across the river, but the Spy will help us decide which fording spot (1-N or 1-NE of Bibracte) is best.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Real Game Results:

t140:

Successfully begged 70W from Ramesses II

Tolosa: Spy destroying Dun costs 102E at 86% odds.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

What is the advantage of building a Road 1-S of Camulodunum? After we capture Tolosa, units should be able to get to our SoD via 1-SW of Camulodunum and the road going South from there.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Real Game Results:

t141:

Adam was 2-NW of Isca 8P. Brennus moved Axeman 1-NW of Isca. Adam needs to move or the Axeman will kill him.

Ramesses II: World Map + 25W for World Map

Sun Tzu Wu