SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika

Manco Capac · Oct 16, 2012

@LowtherCastle

You were right. It is eye-popping how few RNG is included within AI units behaviour.

get.SorenRanNum is what people calls in common terms RNG and I saw so few instances in the code.
Many random parts come more from ignorance/lack of knowledge than true RNG.

LowtherCastle · Oct 16, 2012

Cease Fire or DoP Factors

We will have a hard time getting Brennus to cease fire if we don't capture his scout. IF we capture his scout and lose no battles we should be able to CF as long as his power doesn't go above 75 or so. That's a pretty narrow window of opportunity if he spams axes. Then he could easily create a small SOD, headed by a spear, most likely, that our chariots would have a hard time defending against.

Killing the scout is high priority. If the scout (SW of Paris) follows our culture around clockwise toward Adam, then we should consider sending the new warrior from Orleans due SW, in hopes the scout will walk into a trap.

If the scout goes south, we should try to estiate where he's going and try to maneuver Louis toward him for a capture, although jungle capture is risky.

IF we can't pillage the copper, we'd really prefer to CF just as soon as possible, to stop him from producing more units and to prevent his power from going so high that a CF is virtually impossible without serious warring.

Manco Capac · Oct 16, 2012

Great, you found the function ruling peace treaty between AI-human.
Can you link me to where you found the info?
I was looking fo that info too, but I repetitively ended with AI-AI peace treaties and its value.

LowtherCastle · Oct 16, 2012

Tachywaxon said:
@LowtherCastle

You were right. It is eye-popping how few RNG is included within AI units behaviour.

get.SorenRanNum is what people calls in common terms RNG and I saw so few instances in the code.
Many random parts come more from ignorance/lack of knowledge than true RNG.

I'm still wondering about that bSearch code I linked before. What does this mean:

if ((GC.getGame().getGameTurn() - pLoopCity->getGameTurnAcquired() < 10) || GET_PLAYER(getOwnerINLINE()).AI_plotTargetMissionAIs(pLoopCity->plot(), MISSIONAI_GUARD_CITY, getGroup()) < 2)
{
What is that || mean? Do you think this search might ask the unit to search all cities to see if any cities need a defneder? Tolosa (Brennus horse city) is brand new. Plus, Bibracte only has one defender, for now anyway.

xpost

Manco Capac · Oct 16, 2012

Hehe. I'm still working on many stuff about AI_countermove() and AI_guardCity() functions.

Let's see....

Yup, you got it right talking about Tolosa is brand new because
"(GC.getGame().getGameTurn() - pLoopCity->getGameTurnAcquired() < 10) "

verifies all cities (pLoopCity) and see those that fulfill 9 turns of age of creation.

|| is an logical operator meaning OR (when I capitalize those AND and OR, I refer to operators...).
It means if either one of these conditions is fulfilled, then proceed what's inside {}.

Second check calls:

Spoiler :

It looks like units without given missions (NO_MISSION) will pass through a serie of paths to see what's the shortest distance to get to the city.
Those jobless units will attribute to iCount and that is what is returned to:

GET_PLAYER(getOwnerINLINE()).AI_plotTargetMissionA Is(pLoopCity->plot(), MISSIONAI_GUARD_CITY, getGroup()) < 2
If the number of those units are lower than 2 (that is 1), then they'll get MISSIONAI_GUARD_CITY, which I think it means guarding a city.

After checking, the function AI_guardCity returns to the unit that the best plot to defend is that targeted city.

Anyways, it seems to verify what you said, but I still have difficulty to grasp the whole concept yet.

A c++ course would help for sure.... :cool:

LowtherCastle · Oct 16, 2012

Tachywaxon said:
Great, you found the function ruling peace treaty between AI-human.
Can you link me to where you found the info?
I was looking fo that info too, but I repetitively ended with AI-AI peace treaties and its value.

Here it is. DOn't konw where the code is located.

ZPV said:
half-ceasefire: We pay
(100+(ourCities+theirCities)*3+ourpop+theirpop+ theirwarsuccess*20)
*(Theirpower+10)/(OurPower+TheirPower+10)
--------------------------------------
forDaggerAIs: *9*Theirpower/10*OurPower
forAIsw/morelandthanus: *Theirland/Ourland*.9
forWarPlanAIs: *35*TheirPower/10*(OurPower+4*TheirPower)
forTotalWarAI: *2
eitherDogpileAI: *1.5
---------------------------------------
if theirendangeredcities>ourendangeredcities /3 (AggAI only)
round down to nearest 10

Click to expand...

There isn't the +1 to each side's success in the peace formula, that there is in the RefuseToTalk one.
So:
We pay
(100+12+~7)*39/50 = 92 value (or 30 value if we threaten cities); which gets rounded down to 90 or 30
He pays
(100+12+~7+4*20)*21/50 = 83 value which gets rounded down to 80.

If he gets up to 50 power somehow, then the calculation becomes:
We pay 119*60/71 = 100 value, or 33 if we threaten a city
He pays 199*21/71 = 58 value.
The limit of us being able to DoP without a second battle is >100 power.

ZPV said:
LowtherCastle said:

One more question: What happens if our cost is the same as Toku's? Both at 20, for instance.

Click to expand...

He'll accept the deal. In particular, what he gets has to be at least 91% of what he gives.

Here's another one of ZPV's posts.

Manco Capac · Oct 16, 2012

OK, I think I have quite a bit of a different information (that obviously obsoleted all I did...great...pffft)
That axe is not an UNITAI_COUNTER but a UNITAI_RESERVE.
The resulting behaviours were different. UNITAI_RESERVE wanted to meet our warrior, UNITAI_COUNTER wanted to guard Tolosa (which was limited to 1 archer).

LowtherCastle · Oct 16, 2012

Walter_Wolf said:
The archer 1S1E of Bibracte must be older than the axe, so if Brennus is going to fortify the Capital, it will do it with the archer I guess.

it would seem so, unless the archer goes to fortify Bibracte.

Walter_Wolf said:
Possible solution (current turn is 52).

T52 - ~~Eve and slave 1N1W to the silk~~ Slave 1W, if safe from barbs, Eve 1N1W to the silk and Slave 1N1W to 1W of silk; Louis 2N 2N2E via the forest. Hope the axe moves 1S or 1N1E to threaten Louis.
I'm affraid this would make the axe moving 1S1W to threaten our two units instead of moving in the desired direction. Both Eve and slave to the silk might be better.

I'm tending to agree that it might be better to have the slave go to the silk tile. This is safer on T53, because the slave can move 1N to see if the new axe moved to Bibracte-1NW, before either going to the copper, if safe, or going to the other silk. This info also tells us whether it is safe for Eve to go to the second silk tile (we don't want EVe to get trapped there).

Walter_Wolf said:
- If the axe moves 1S IBT 52 - 53:Eve 1S1W escapes the axe; Louis smells the forest, Slave moves to the other silk 1N1W. Axe moves to the silk or 1E next turn.

T54 - Slave escapes 2N1E to 1W of the forest Louis was camping a lot.

In this scenario, if Louis siffs the forest first, then the slave can first go to the coastal tile south of the silk to defog before going to the silk.

Walter_Wolf said:
- If the axe moves 1N1E IBT 52 - 53:

Slave moves to the copper; Louis moves 1N to the jungle; Eve 1N to try to reach copper.

As I mentioned above, the slave first has to go to 1N of the silk tile to make sure the new axe hasn't gone to Bibracte-1NW.

Walter_Wolf said:
- If the axe moves 1S1W IBT 52 - 53,
Louis moves 1S to the G mine T53 to pillage or move to copper T54.Sl
ave ˛&ve escape south to lure the axe further south, and if the bait works, Louis can go to back to copper T54/55. He'll have another axe by the time which complicates things.

Louis should sniff the forest first, to see if the new axe has gone to Bibracte-1N or -1NE, in which case it's not safe to go to the hill mine.

===

For the time being, I'm liking your T52 plan to send Louis 2NE and both Eve and the slave to the silk.

It probably means Brennus gets at least one more axe, which means we need to be able to get a cease fire as I discussed here.

xpost w/Tachy

Walter_Wolf · Oct 16, 2012

This is the T52 test game. Idk if the units have the same scripts, but at least we can get a hint on what their behavior might be with different placement of our units.

i didn't update the terrain in the north, and Adam got 1XP from a barb warrior. The cottage 1E of Orleans also has 1 more turn .... in it.

Manco Capac · Oct 16, 2012

This is not looking good because AI_reserveMove() function has a different system of priority and what C1 axe did corresponds well to that script.

Code:

void CvUnitAI::AI_reserveMove()
{
	PROFILE_FUNC();
	
	bool bDanger = (GET_PLAYER(getOwnerINLINE()).AI_getPlotDanger(plot(), 3) > 0);


	if (bDanger && AI_leaveAttack(2, 55, 130))
	{
		return;
	}
	
	if (plot()->getOwnerINLINE() == getOwnerINLINE())
	{
		if (AI_load(UNITAI_SETTLER_SEA, MISSIONAI_LOAD_SETTLER, UNITAI_SETTLE, -1, -1, 1, -1, MOVE_SAFE_TERRITORY))
		{
			return;
		}
		if (AI_load(UNITAI_SETTLER_SEA, MISSIONAI_LOAD_SETTLER, UNITAI_WORKER, -1, -1, 1, -1, MOVE_SAFE_TERRITORY))
		{
			return;
		}
	}
	
	if (!bDanger)
	{
		if (AI_group(UNITAI_SETTLE, 2, -1, -1, false, false, false, 3, true))
		{
			return;
		}
	}
	
	if (AI_guardCity(true))
	{
		return;
	}

I cut just at AI_guardCity.
bdanger is still over 0 as I proved earlier.
And AI_leaveAttack() function is all about a unit quitting a city for attacking a unit endangering a city's BFC.

First argument is the range of attack. iRange=2. Roads help.
Second argument is iOddsThreshold=55, which is the necessary odd to attack. Single unit vs unit (or stack of ultra weak units)
Third argument is iStrengthThreshold=130.
Yes you might think it's nonsense that a unit of 130 :strength:

could exist, but in fact 130 is not coming from a unit, but a stack combined strength.
Yup, that's the very condition that forces the AI to immure in the city in cases of great threats.
And one of the cause why worker baits don't work if a big stack jeopardizes the city.
UNITAI_RESERVE is a script that sounds like some stock soldiers for various tasks.

Walter_Wolf · Oct 16, 2012

1st try the axe went back to the city

LowtherCastle · Oct 16, 2012

@Tachy

If I'm understanding the leaveAttack code correctly, it also determines the best path for the axe to take, right? Does that include defense terrain, such as picking a forest over a flatland? Or is it just evaluating attack values (like over rivers, etc.)?

I'm thinking how we can lure these axes around.

Manco Capac · Oct 16, 2012

Yeah, that test even proves further we got the most offensive side of an Axe, because UNITAI_COUNTER feels more of a defensive script. I moved away and the axe returned to home. I returned to pillage and I could pillage without problem. That axe wasn't attracted. In the real game, he is attracted just like he's obeying the reserve script.

Walter_Wolf · Oct 16, 2012

I tried the moves in the test game 8 or 9 times, and the axe goes to Bitracte 100% times.

Might be it's worldbuildered status behaviour, or, if I understand Tachy, the axe has the same script in the test and real games.

I'd like to proceed with the turnset in one hour from now with this option :

Possible solution (current turn is 52).

T52 - Eve and slave 1N1W to the silk; Louis 2N via the forest. Hope the axe moves 1S.
T53 - Eve 1S1W escapes the axe; Louis smells the forest, Slave moves to the other silk 1N1W. Axe moves to the silk or 1E.
T54 - Slave escapes 2N2E to the forest Louis was camping a lot.

with ouis moving 2N2E instead of 2N T52, and considering Lowthercastle's suggestions from post 968 which include some quoted thoughts of mine.

May I?

Manco Capac · Oct 16, 2012

LowtherCastle said:
@Tachy

If I'm understanding the leaveAttack code correctly, it also determines the best path for the axe to take, right? Does that include defense terrain, such as picking a forest over a flatland? Or is it just evaluating attack values (like over rivers, etc.)?

I'm thinking how we can lure these axes around.

Because of this line:

Code:

if (!atPlot(pLoopPlot) && (generatePath(pLoopPlot, 0, true, &iPathTurns) && (iPathTurns <= iRange)))

where iPathTurns <= iRange (iRange=2), AI_leaveAttack is more about pathfinding a reachable unit within a turn or two.

Still, I'm doing testing and it is hard to get a definitive conclusion...

Don't know yet about favoring defensive lands first. Indeed, automation brings it, why not the same for AI units.

========

Might be it's worldbuildered status behaviour, or, if I understand Tachy, the axe has the same script in the test and real games.

Via WB, you get the default script, which is UNITAI_COUNTER.
Via natural training, 4 possibilities IIRC:
UNITAI_COUNTER
UNITAI_ATTACK
UNITAI_CITY_ATTACK
UNITAI_RESERVE

Your test game has UNITAI_COUNTER. counter type seems very far from reality...unless it's trying to gin Torosa.

Manco Capac · Oct 16, 2012

Can't we just give him green light for those few turns? Because I think we are stalling.

bcool · Oct 16, 2012

yes, Walter Wolf go ahead.

We might need to stay a little more focused on constructive feedback for Walter_Wolf. The clock is ticking. Let's try to keep our posts directed at ways to improve the current turn or grand strategy.

shulec · Oct 16, 2012

Go ahead!

Manco Capac · Oct 16, 2012

Plox plox. I wanna see it. I saw too much code I forgot what's the real game.
Can you in a range of 10 mins?

Before quitting, I wish to see next turn changes.

Walter_Wolf · Oct 16, 2012

So, the axe in the real game will behave significantly different. I'll need some support here

Loading game

will be updating this post

T53

The axe moved 1S. Bitracte sabotage production is 0, so he has a new unit as his power ratio went to 0,7321. We see the sabotage prod for tolosa too. it's 23, Vienna 25.

Will do this:

Originally Posted by Walter_Wolf View Post
- If the axe moves 1S IBT 52 - 53:Eve 1S1W escapes the axe; Louis smells the forest, Slave moves to the other silk 1N1W. Axe moves to the silk or 1E next turn.

T54 - Slave escapes 2N1E to 1W of the forest Louis was camping a lot.

In this scenario, if Louis siffs the forest first, then the slave can first go to the coastal tile south of the silk to defog before going to the silk.

Louis moved to the forest. No second axe in sight. Scout is in our culture 3S1E of paris.

Spoiler :

Louis went to the grass hill mine, Bitracte is visible. He has 2 archers and a spear. all unpromoted.

T54

Axe went on the silks. An archer moved 1W from Bitracte, so slave will make it out. louis pillaged the G mine. Got 5 gold.

Spoiler :

T55

Barbarian archer spotted near our borders down SE. He is at 1,6 health, so I fear he killed the Brennus scout.
Brennus axe chasing Eve, archer returned home.

T55 reached, uploading game.

Brennus is willing to take a peace treaty.

SGOTM 16 - Kakumeika

Friday,13 June,I Collapse

Deity

Friday,13 June,I Collapse

Deity

Friday,13 June,I Collapse

Deity

Friday,13 June,I Collapse

Deity

King

Attachments

Friday,13 June,I Collapse

King

Deity

Friday,13 June,I Collapse

King

Friday,13 June,I Collapse

Friday,13 June,I Collapse

Deity

Grrrrr... I AM the force!

Friday,13 June,I Collapse

King

Attachments

Similar threads