SGOTM 16 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

[Sleepless]

No, I don't think so. It's still early days, I think we should be building nothing but warriors, workers and settlers until we have
A) at least 3 cities,
B) workers to support them (at least one per city) and
C) enough warriors to properly fogbust the lands to the north and between us and the AI.

If we are concerned that our tech rate is too slow to achieve some kind of Oracle gambit, I don't think the solution is more ; the solution is a more achievable goal. MC springs to mind.

Agree as well.

Slight change in where I think cities should go as I think pig/fish (rather than fish/clam) to the east will be viable early. That way we can settle pig/clam to have 2 food resources although only 1 gem. Ideally we need to see whats in the North as well. Not overkeen on settling to much of the jungle early without IW. Plus need pot or writing before our tech rate drops due to expansion.

 

[timmy827]

PPP:
Found sheep/fish/horse city 1W of sheep (looks like strong consensus for this spot). Revolt to Slavery pending team consensus. EP to brennus.

Plan to play tonight Pacific time (if everyone loves my plan) or tomorrow night (in the more likely case that some better ideas get thrown out and I revise).

Tech:
Seems Oracle is what people are more concerned about building sooner. Given that I concur with Sleepless and Adrinanj for short tern (fishing-mysticism); Ronnie given that you agree with city #3 (and presumably at least 3, and likely 4, workers is 'enough' ) we have time to slot in fishing before the Priesthood run.

Planned stopping point: when Mysticism learned, about 13-14 turns, or a major surprise.

Builds:
New City: a few turns into warrior, then WB once Fishing discovered. I think slow-building the WB is right. It will have other good tiles to work (sheep, horse), and with the planned tech path, it will have little to finish besides WB and warrior while growing. At size 3 it can support expansion with settler/worker (likely past my turnset).

Paris: worker after this settler. The coming chop finishes that worker, then I'm not sure...
could continue to settler, continue to worker, or store the overflow from chop in one of those followed by growing and building warriors. I think I prefer the last, we need a bit more fogbusting/defense before reaching for city 3. And think the build will be settler 3 before worker 3. But suggestions welcome.

Unit Actions:
Worker 1: move SW, chop (goes to finish Paris worker 2), then pasture sheep, then pasture horse.

Worker coming from Paris: mines the grass hill 1W 2N of Paris. (Since we have more workers and settlers planned, I think it makes more sense to mine the hills ahead of farming FP, both are 4-yield tiles when improved but the hills take 3 fewer worker turns).

Southern warrior explores further south. Would like to see the if 2nd gems has any other food source. If so the clam/pigs/1 gem city becomes more attractive - pre IW it can do clams plus 2 grass hills.

Warrior in our borders goes north for permaspawnbust, I think. He should fogbust, might as well go north since we haven't seen what is up there yet. Lay of the land is nice with Paris culture fogbusting our east, and one warrior should cover the north.

Questions:
Do we really want to revolt to Slavery now? I get the logic of doing it while your Settler walks to his founding location, that your city builds are paused in anarchy but settler/worker moves are not. But I don't see us whipping anything in the near future, would it make sense to delay Slavery more?


Notes: (probably don't affect my coming turnset)
Rammesses favorite civic is OR, not Theology, same as Brennus. (Not sure if that would actually make him more likely to research Theo anyways).
Down the line tech path - personally I might put Sailing/Masonry before Writing if we are serious about Great Lighthouse. But that's out of scope for this set.
I vote for MC from Oracle as well. Besides forges and trade value, I could see Colossus being of use as well.

 

[Ronnie1]

I like this PPP!

I think we revolt now, revolting later costs more in terms of lost food/coins/production because we will have more cities and they will likely be bigger. Eventually we will be in slavery, let's get it over with.

 

[Grifftavian]

PPP looks good! Agree with R1, go ahead and revolt to Slavery after Settler is completed.

 

[Sleepless]

@timmy827 your ppp looks good.

Though its very unlikely we will whip Paris once we have writing in libs in a couple of cities can be whipped almost straight away with the creative discount. Atm we only lose 3 pops yield for 1 turn. So slavery now would be better.

Builds.

Agree with Paris settler - worker - warrior(s) (grow to size 4 for use of whip). It depends on where and how quickly we want our third and fourth cities out.

 

[Conquistador 63]

Ok with PPP. Naive question, do we have the worker turns available to chop the forest on the 2nd city tile before we settle it?

 

[adrianj]

I like the PPP as well

I'm on board with Paris build order = Settler > Worker > Settler (part build, receive chop overflow) > Warriors (to size 4) > Settler.

How much of that build queue will we get through in 13 turns?

I also prefer revolt to slavery immediately for the reasons mentioned above. Mostly because cities other than the capital could use some whipping.

@C63 - good question. How much is it worth? It's pretty far from Paris, so maybe only 12 ? Imagine it delayed settling city #2 by 2 turns or more. I'm sure the city is 'worth' more than 6/turn in the medium to long term.

 

[Ronnie1]

Ok with PPP. Naive question, do we have the worker turns available to chop the forest on the 2nd city tile before we settle it?

I think the earliest the worker could get there is 3 turns same as the settler, so probably not worth it.

 

[Ozbenno]

Happy with the PPP, agree to revolt now.

By the time we are building warriors, we may have the capabilities to build chariots, should we do this instead for better defense/exploration?

 

[adrianj]

Good point Oz - chariots probably aren't far away. To connect horses worker 1 still needs to move to sheep > pasture sheep > pasture horses > road horses > road sheep.

That *might* get finished this turnset, I'm not sure. Timmy - what's the worker plan beyond the horse pasture? Is it to build roads, or something else?

NB: it's possible for worker 1 to PART build a road on the horse tile en route to sheep without any actual loss of time.

 

[timmy827]

Wow you guys are nice. Unfortunately a late night at office means I'm not going to play till tomorrow. And there will be slavery as the settler moves.

As far as chopping the forest on city 2's location - yeah, not going to happen. Besides adrianj's points about its low value, its also opportunity cost on the worker not chopping a closer forest or improving a tile.

Re: when we get chariots: Here's detail on my original worker-1 plan. It already moved this turn (36).
37 - move 1SW
38-40: chop forest to complete Paris's 2nd worker
41: moves 1W, part roads
42: moves, starts sheep pasture (done 45)
46-49: horse pasture
50-53: roads horse and sheep to connect (Paris gets them to from river connection). (Likely this is past my turnset but yeah I'd assume we'd road the horses at that point. City 2 will be workboating so the fish will be its 3rd improved tile).

What it would look like skipping the chop for faster horses:
37 - move hill
38 - part road horses
39-42: sheep pasture
43: road (I think we need one more turn border for border pop to start horse pasture)
44-7: horse pasture
48-9: two more road turns to complete connection.

If we don't chop, Paris would finish the 2nd worker at end of turn 42 I think (factoring in slavery revolt). So even with fastest possible plan, if we want Paris to grow after next worker it will be on warriors. (I don't think it makes sense to use the 2nd worker on speeding horses, wastes turns with moving and Paris needs more mines).

I like my original plan a little better, think getting 2nd worker out a bit earlier is useful. I don't think having chariots a few turns sooner is important. I also don't think we need a lot of chariots, sounds like city 3 is gonna be close as well (the 2 food site to the east, or the plains hill/wheat/FP) and one with some road connections plus a spawnbusted north should be enough for a while.

One question I forgot to ask: what unimproved tile should city 2 work before sheep pasture is done? I lean towards 3H forest-plains-hill but open to ideas. Bear in mind it will be building a warrior for 3 turns (I think) before Fishing in and WB available.

 

[Ronnie1]

One question I forgot to ask: what unimproved tile should city 2 work before sheep pasture is done? I lean towards 3H forest-plains-hill but open to ideas. Bear in mind it will be building a warrior for 3 turns (I think) before Fishing in and WB available.

I have always been a believer in the best available tile philosophy. Food>Hammers>Coins

So I would GROW ASAP!

For this reason, I want to farm the floodplain in Paris ASAP also.

 

[McArine]

I agree with PPP, and getting worker 2 out faster is more important than chariots earlier.
I also agree with Ronnie1, that growth is most important in city 2 atm.

 

[Sleepless]

If we don't need the warrior for fog busitng duites etc. Grow on fp/sheep to size 2 then work sheep/forest hill for faster wb seems best.

Pretty easy either way on this one as more warriors for fogbusting etc would help. Plus side will be able to whip emergency forces if required.

 

[Grifftavian]

...One question I forgot to ask: what unimproved tile should city 2 work before sheep pasture is done? I lean towards 3H forest-plains-hill but open to ideas. Bear in mind it will be building a warrior for 3 turns (I think) before Fishing in and WB available.

If we don't need the warrior for fog busitng duites etc. Grow on fp/sheep to size 2 then work sheep/forest hill for faster wb seems best. ...

Agree with Sleepless' answer to timmy827's question.

Another question for team consideration: After the initial Work Boat to net City #2's Fish, should City #2 build another WB or two for exploration purposes?

 

[Ozbenno]

If we are sinking 3 turns into warrior before WB seems best to let that finish, maybe another WB then

 

[Ronnie1]

If we are sinking 3 turns into warrior before WB seems best to let that finish, maybe another WB then

I do not agree. Get the WB up ASAP, the Fish are the best tile we have available I believe.

 

[Ozbenno]

I do not agree. Get the WB up ASAP, the Fish are the best tile we have available I believe.

Sorry, wasn't clear. After building the first WB I was saying we should complete the warrior before building a second warrior.

Was in response to this

After the initial Work Boat to net City #2's Fish, should City #2 build another WB or two for exploration purposes?

 

[Ronnie1]

Sorry, wasn't clear. After building the first WB I was saying we should complete the warrior before building a second warrior.

Was in response to this

This makes more sense! I'm not even sure we need a second boat for exploring in the short run. Maybe after borders pop on city 2 and we can see if the island to the west is bigger than 1 tile.

 

[Ronnie1]

Doing a bit of testing with the map I made.

If we take a bit of a risk and move the current worker to the horses (outside borders) and road 1 turn on the way to the sheep, then we can get the horses pastured and hooked by T49. Side note, city 2 looks better than the cap by T53 when it is size 3 and working 3 bonus tiles!

Also, if we get a road on the tile 1S of Paris, we can get the settler #2 to city #3 site 1 turn quicker.