SGOTM 16 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

[Ronnie1]

Duckweeds advice. Agree on the advice. Don't mind building more settlers just don't think we can afford to settle them. No problem having them in place as long as they don't cost us money though.

His point was that settling another city is almost always the best option. Even if it crashes the economy in the short run, the long term benefits are almost always greater.

I am holding off on playing, as it seems there is still a lot to be decided, and very little consensus at this point.

 

[Sleepless]

His point was that settling another city is almost always the best option. Even if it crashes the economy in the short run, the long term benefits are almost always greater.

I am holding off on playing, as it seems there is still a lot to be decided, and very little consensus at this point.

If it ends up it takes us 40 or so turns to tech writing etc (currently about 15 @breakeven) we have no way of recovering quickly from over expansion. I know manys the time I've had to work any coastal tiles etc to avoid bankruptcy.

Note I did put I agree with what he was saying. The sooner we settle cities the more productive they will be in the long run.

 

[adrianj]

Building a settler and NOT settling it sounds like some kind of wasted opportunity cost.
Expanding out to 5 cities as fast as possible won't tank the economy will it? We would certainly have Pottery by that stage and Writing shortly after, so the recovery shouldn't be too painful.

Comments in Red

Just got home from work and catching up on the ideas. I'll try to summarize as best I can in no particular order.

1) Settle city #3 , ???, on desert instead of PH with wheat or deer/pig/clam. If it comes to a vote, I vote desert.
2) 2 pop whip Orleans in rhythm approximately every 10 turns Note that the city should never drop below 3 pop, hence always working bonus tiles.
3) Build chop Oracle in Paris ASAP taking MC Is this even in this turn set?
4) I'm personally a bit confused on the cottage question, but lean towards cottaging most of the flood plains. Me too. Though some farms are important, eg, one next to Wheat city to spread irrigation to the wheat.
5) Research ???, I still like Poly before Meditation for opening up Literature and the ability to possibly bulb Theology. Ability to bulb Theology sounds like a red herring to me. Why would we do that? Any GProph would almost certainly be used to build a shrine. I'm sure we can pick up Poly in due course through trading with Bren or Ram.
6) Worker steal, both C63 and Timmy make valid points, not sure which way I'm leaning here. I have no strong feelings either way. If I were to vote, I'd say to not declare war.
7) I think we need more workers Sure.
8) Duckweed said once upon a time in evaluating what to build next, "is any build better than a settler?" Well....??? Some builds are better: Oracle before the AI gets it; A worker if the ratio is too unbalanced; A non-worker/settler if the city has good tiles to grow on to; a military unit if there are barbs at your borders.

 

[adrianj]

If it ends up it takes us 40 or so turns to tech writing etc (currently about 15 @breakeven) we have no way of recovering quickly from over expansion. I know manys the time I've had to work any coastal tiles etc to avoid bankruptcy.

Perhaps someone could try out in the test game what our economy might actually look like when we are at 5 cities? (Wheat, Pigs/Deer, Pigs/Gems)
I know that City #2 is almost always a net increase in , city #3 is about even, how bad are cities #4 and #5?
If you play the test game, do we have Pottery and Writing by the time we have 5 cities?

 

[Ronnie1]

I played with the test game a bit this morning before work.

Never got to city #5, but here are some observations.

1) Barbs show up pretty hard about T70
2) We definitely need more workers to chop Oracle to time with Pottery, especially going through Meditation.
3) We should probably whip regularly to solve happy cap issues everywhere except Paris, and even in Paris occasionally.

 

[timmy827]

Perhaps someone could try out in the test game what our economy might actually look like when we are at 5 cities? (Wheat, Pigs/Deer, Pigs/Gems)
I know that City #2 is almost always a net increase in , city #3 is about even, how bad are cities #4 and #5?
If you play the test game, do we have Pottery and Writing by the time we have 5 cities?

I will try tonight. (Sorry just can't get to it sooner).

 

[Ronnie1]

4 connected cities with a few cottages in the wheat city puts us at about 30% sustainable science. The 5th city lowers that to 20%. I can get writing by T83 in this scenario, with the settler for city #5 just completed. What really slowed me down was a big influx of barbs starting about T70 which included losing fog busting warriors to attrition and needing to build/whip a couple chariots to keep things under control.

I would like to play tonight or tomorrow if possible, approximately 15 turns to the completion Priesthood.

 

[adrianj]

I played with the test game a bit this morning before work.

I will try tonight. (Sorry just can't get to it sooner).

No need to apologise!

As a non-turnset-playing member, I'd just like to say I really appreciate the rest of the team picking up the slack.

20% slider with 5 cities I think is actually pretty good. And that we have Writing at that stage sounds like we would be in an ok position.

Ron's experience with barb problems in the test game could be a red flag. Though, hard to say what effect nearby AI and the general shape of the land would have on this.

 

[Ronnie1]

Real save we have 4.03% of the total land, Test Game we have 3.86%.

The test game has a bit more land in it, but not a lot. Shape obviously has an impact, but the number of Barbs spawning should be semi-close to reality.

 

[Sleepless]

Well I played a bit with the test save as well. Went Med - Priest - Writing which should have been pottery to take MC from Oracle. At turn 70 (1200BC) I was 4 turns from writing with 4 cities. 4 workers. 2 chariots. I was -1gold @50 % slider which equates to about 12 beakers per turn at that time. I would have finished pottery and with a chop the Oracle would nearly have been done for MC.

I did whip the warrior in Orleans for some gold overflow and I think thats the best idea to do at this time as we don't have any real forms of commerce at the moment and will enable us to get to priest/pot in time for the Oracle to be done as well.

Edit: I didn't have any real probs with the barbs?? Lost a warrior to an archer which was killed by a chariot.

 

[adrianj]

My comment about map size vs barb troubles was more about the size and shape of our own landmass, ie, the undiscovered/unfogged areas where barbs can spawn. In the real game, we have AI and barbarian cities doing some of the fogbusting job for us. I'm not suggesting we attempt to model it in the test game, but just something to think about.

While we are talking about map size, it might be interesting to figure out the total number of tiles on the map, as this affects City Distance Maintenance. If the test game is indeed larger (map width, not just land tiles) then the distance maintenance in the test game will be underestimated.

One way to see evidence of a difference is to compare the distance maintenance of Orleans in each game version. As the city is close and of small size we might not see any difference due to the effect of rounding... but the difference (if there is any) will become more noticeable as the city grows or as we settle more distant cities.

@Sleepless and Ron - is it safe to say we can expand out to 5 cities and not completely tank the economy?

@Ron - what outstanding questions are there for this turnset?

 

[Ronnie1]

Been playing with the test game some more. T68 completed Oracle in Orleans with only 2 chops and perfectly timed to the earliest Pottery date.

The reason I tried Orleans, I 2 pop whipped the settler in Paris and followed with a worker. When Priesthood is done, Orleans has just grown to size 4 and completed a second warrior(mp for Orleans to allow size 4) so the synergy seems good and it is a very strong city at that point.

Going to test again without whipping Paris to compare results.

 

[Ronnie1]

@Sleepless and Ron - is it safe to say we can expand out to 5 cities and not completely tank the economy?

@Ron - what outstanding questions are there for this turnset?

5 cities seems very doable.

City settling location, or have we confirmed the desert for C3?
Build order I guess, which is what I am testing right now.
Turnset length, I originally guessed 15 turns, in actuality, Priesthood only takes 10-11.
I am also trying to get a feel for worker actions needed to maximize efficiency.

 

[Ronnie1]

I can get the same T68 Oracle in Paris, still only 2 chops required.

Differences
1) Lyons is founded 3 turns later
2) Fewer improved tiles @T68

I like the Orleans option mostly because we speed up our third city.

 

[Ronnie1]

My comment about map size vs barb troubles was more about the size and shape of our own landmass, ie, the undiscovered/unfogged areas where barbs can spawn. In the real game, we have AI and barbarian cities doing some of the fogbusting job for us. I'm not suggesting we attempt to model it in the test game, but just something to think about.

1 thing definitely different in the test game, is the barb city to our west. I am going to spend a bit of time reworking the test game and try to make it a little more accurate.

 

[Ronnie1]

Here is the test game revised to update location of Bibracte, Barb city to our west and total tile count based on our percentage of owned land.

 

[Sleepless]

Played a bit more with med - pottery and 2 pop whipping Paris for the settler settles Lyon at 1840BC. Slightly later date for completion of Oracle than Ron comes in at turn 70. I seem to be slower than Ron in teching as it takes 13 turns to priest but might be to do with earlier settling of Lyons and only 1 pop whipping for overflow gold in Orleans once. Because of its 5 yield tiles I think Orleans would be better on settler/worker duty than Paris which only has 1.

A few more barbs this time as well.

 

[adrianj]

I suggest we take whichever path builds the Oracle (and techs Pottery in time) the quickest. Once that is out of the way we can focus on our next set of goals, eg, expanding.

For what it's worth, I'm still not convinced of the warrior whipping for overflow. It's a great trick, but are the few really worth the wasted and gained?

In terms of production, is it not more efficient to simply grow the city by an extra population while building the warrior naturally and then 2 pop whipping something like a worker?

In terms of commerce, couldn't that whipped population work something like a coastal tile and generate that way? Sure, a coastal tile is lame and we'd more likely be working a mine or forest, but doesn't that choice just demonstrate that our priorities are more about and than ?

 

[Ronnie1]

I need more practice....last effort was T69 in Orleans.

 

[Conquistador 63]

The reason I tried Orleans, I 2 pop whipped the settler in Paris and followed with a worker.

Given we are IND I think we should try to 2pop-whip a settler or worker with maximum overflow (at least over 20h) onto Oracle - or any subsequent wonder for that matter, as we gain the IND bonus on these hammers. It also allows the city to regrow to its happy cap.