SGOTM 16 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Save

Done mostly as planned; fishing+ mysticism in, Paris has started the settler. Ronnie, I mined with the worker instead of farming the floodplains. Reason - by the time the FP farm would have finished, Paris would have been stagnating at size 4 on the settler. So the grass hill mine was a faster payoff (5 turns instead of 8 turns) for equivalent yield. It also allowed to double-up the horses which seemed like a good idea; that was a net gain of 2F1C (switching the FPH to the horses) whereas improving another tile at Paris only gives +1H when building a settler. As of now, the workers have finished roading the Sheep but not the Horses.

My suggestion is splitting the workers. One goes to mine the PH 2W of paris, followed by farming the FP. Prechopping for Oracle also a possibility. The other worker roads the horses, maybe chops for Orleans? not sure.

A barb city appeared a few turns ago:
Barb.jpg

Must be something nice in the fog to the west. Also nice that it will do some spawnbusting for us.

Southern warrior found this:
South.jpg

That's his capital borders. Note the eastern corn, that can go with the southern gems, so the pig/clam/northern gem city looks better. The presence of Ramsses scout means it's probably safe to go NW across the one open plains before continuing into the jungle. This guy killed one barb warrior and got Woody I. Brennus's scout in the north killed something. Other than those and the city, no barb activity spotted. Paris's two new warriors are headed to recommended spawnbusting locations:
Barb2.jpg

Those will cover the south well.

In the north:
North.jpg

Nice, fish/deer will be another decent city down the road. The extended tundra is annoying as it can't be fully busted with one guy. I'd be tempted to just park our warrior on the sign for most spawnbusting/warning instead of finishing exploring as we have no warriors at home right now. Further exploration of north can wait, unless the mapmaker put a ZOMG 2 fish/2furs/2silver site we aren't going to to settle there for ages.

Not sure about Orleans next build. Finishing the warrior probably not a high prioirty (I went with working the FP first so the warrior only has a few hammers sunk into it). Could be 2nd WB to scout or another worker. Whipping Orleans could be profitable even without granary.

I picked Polytheism as next tech but that's not definitive of course.

Autolog:
Spoiler :


Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 36/500 (2560 BC) [05-Oct-2012 20:41:57]
Research begun: Fishing (6 Turns)
100% Research: 10 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paris finishes: Settler

Turn 37/500 (2520 BC) [05-Oct-2012 20:43:09]
Paris begins: Worker (7 turns)
100% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 0 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Louis XIV(France) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 38/500 (2480 BC) [05-Oct-2012 20:44:48]
100% Research: 10 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 39/500 (2440 BC) [05-Oct-2012 20:46:31]
Orleans founded
Orleans begins: Warrior (15 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 11 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 40/500 (2400 BC) [05-Oct-2012 20:48:50]
100% Research: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 11 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paris finishes: Worker

Turn 41/500 (2360 BC) [05-Oct-2012 20:51:34]
Paris begins: Warrior (3 turns)
100% Research: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 8 in the bank

Turn 42/500 (2320 BC) [05-Oct-2012 20:54:37]
100% Research: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 5 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Fishing

Turn 43/500 (2280 BC) [05-Oct-2012 20:55:49]
Research begun: Mysticism (5 Turns)
Orleans begins: Work Boat (30 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 11 per turn, 2 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paris finishes: Warrior
Orleans's borders expand

Turn 44/500 (2240 BC) [05-Oct-2012 21:02:57]
Paris begins: Warrior (3 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 11 per turn, 13 in the bank

Turn 45/500 (2200 BC) [05-Oct-2012 21:04:53]
A Pasture was built near Orleans
A Mine was built near Paris
100% Research: 14 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 24 in the bank

After End Turn:
Orleans grows to size 2

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild, Warrior 0 (1.66/2) defeats Barbarian Warrior (Prob Victory: 74.9%)

Turn 46/500 (2160 BC) [05-Oct-2012 21:08:12]
Warrior 0 promoted: Woodsman I
100% Research: 15 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 21 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paris grows to size 4
Paris finishes: Warrior

Turn 47/500 (2120 BC) [05-Oct-2012 21:14:38]
Paris begins: Settler (10 turns)
A Pasture was built near Orleans
100% Research: 15 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 18 in the bank

Turn 48/500 (2080 BC) [05-Oct-2012 21:16:12]
100% Research: 15 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 15 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Mysticism

Turn 49/500 (2040 BC) [05-Oct-2012 21:19:39]
Research begun: Polytheism (9 Turns)

 
Good job, timmy827! :goodjob:

The turn set roster order is....

1) Grifftavian
2) Ozbenno
3) timmy827 Just Played
4) Ronnie1 Up Now
5) Conquistador63 On Deck
6) Sleepless
7) McArine

Turn Set Player Emeritus & Team Advisor
adrainj
 
Nice first turnset and report timmy827 :goodjob:

Managed a very quick look at the save.

Spawnbusting. Agree with putting the warrior on sentry where you marked in the North. Other points look sensible in the South as well. To much land to fogbust further South so looks about the best we can do.

Cities. I like the thought of a pig/fish/deer site now with some production as well as a possible 4th city. Third the wheat site. Trouble is we have a few good options and none great. Lack of commerce will be a problem once we go past city 4 so ideally we will need writing or pottery after priesthood. Normally I would go poly - priest but think saving a few beakers going med first would be better. Can't see much point in cottages atm though pottery would be required for MC from the Oracle.

Thought. :) Once we have a forge in Paris an idea might be to put Paris on building the Pyramids. That would solve our research/help with happy by running rep.
 
Nice going Tim!

I have the save. On may way to work this morning in about an hour, but I'll give a quick look now and see if I have time to post some initial thoughts.
 
Couple quick thoughts/questions....

1) Really nice playing Tim! Great views, good fog busting already! I do think the SB location in the SW needs to go 1S, I believe everything within 2 squares of our borders is safe from future barbs already.

2) Tim, can you take the test game and try to recreate the builds and tile use in the cities. Warrior moves are not critical as they are easy enough to fix with world builder.

3) It is turn 49 and NO wonders have been built world wide. Are we still interested in trying for Great Lighthouse in City #2? If no, what do we build here?

4) How fast do we want the 4th city up? I would vote ASAP, but where to put it? Sleepless says pig/deer/fish. I would favor south towards Brennus, probably clam/pig/gems.

5) Do we go for the IW steal? If so, where do we slot Alphabet? I think we need it earlyish because still no copper in sight.

6) Where do we slot Math for more efficient chopping?

7) Where do we build Oracle?
 
Couple quick thoughts/questions....
3) It is turn 49 and NO wonders have been built world wide. Are we still interested in trying for Great Lighthouse in City #2? If no, what do we build here? For now I would put workers/settlers/chariots in no particular order though we can road towards new city sites for faster settling. Just have to remember barbs can use roads as well. :). Once we have writing we will want libs/scientists. No harm in putting a few turns in SH either for the fail gold (ditto for other cities)if nothing else is worth building.

4) How fast do we want the 4th city up? I would vote ASAP, but where to put it? Sleepless says pig/deer/fish. I would favor south towards Brennus, probably clam/pig/gems.Agree with asap. Trouble with that site atm is the gems/pigs are jungle covered which only leaves the clams and a fair way away from the capital as well. pdf has 2 immediate food sources + deer with hunting and production (ish).

5) Do we go for the IW steal? If so, where do we slot Alphabet? I think we need it earlyish because still no copper in sight.With the 3 options I think it has to be IW. Actually thinking it might be better to go writing first atm. Too indecisive me.:lol:. Writing gives our cities something to build and boosts our tech rate speeding up future techs. So my thinking within our constraints would be writing - med - priest - pot - mas (mids in Paris)- (sailing for the GLh if building, barb city blocks off potential trade routes atm) - alpha - math - currency (always thought we have left currency to late in the last SGOTMs). Hopefully pick up techs like monarchy etc by trade as we do need to improve our happy cap.

6) Where do we slot Math for more efficient chopping? I'd prefer having alpha first as our first big tech to go for.

7) Where do we build Oracle? Paris for me. Could hold off a possible Mids build until we have MC from Oracle and a forge in Paris so masonry could possibly wait until we need it.

five characters
 
PPP Draft

Paris
Finish Settler > Worker > Settler

Orleans
Finish WB > Worker > Chariot or ???

Settle City #3 on the PH grabbing the Wheat initial build Chariot until Oracle available then switch to Oracle and pre-chop. I like Oracle here for the big border pops and potential second culture city. This site has good hammer potential and I see Orleans building Navy in the future.

Settle City #4, site to be determined.

Worker actions by priority....
1) Connect Horses
2) Farm Floodplain at Paris
3) Chop Settlers
4) Farm Wheat
5) Road to inland city sites
5) Pre-chop
6) ????

Explore with 1 warrior W-SW looking for Ramses and other civs.
 
Orleans has a warrior that needs finishing as well. Though hammers might be decaying/decayed on it? If we have nothing better to build I would put Orleans on the settler builds (better tiles than Paris) and for the fail cash Paris on Stonehenge at least for a couple of turns. Can remove it from the queue and build SH somewhere else as well. For a boots this would work with quite a few wonders especially if we have the resource for it.
 
I agree with Sleepless that Orleans should finish the Warrior in the build queue after the Work Boat. Per the attached screen shot, the Warrior build will lose 1 :hammers: in 5 turns, but it is 3 turns to complete the WB, so we shouldn't lose any :hammers: on the Warrior.

The reason I'd like to see the Warrior finished in Orleans is the proximity of that Barbarian City to both Orleans and the City #3 site. If we can get him there, the forested Plains Hill 1W of the Incense would be a good spot for the Warrior from Orleans to keep an eye on the Barbarian city.

Question: Should we be looking to capture that Barbarian City for our City #4? It's city square is on a plains tile, and we could attack it from the Floodplains to it's E & SE without attacking across the river. A few Chariots might be able to take it.

@R1: PPP doesn't mention Research. Based on build plan for City #3, I'm guessing you will be going Polytheism > Priesthood. Is this what you are thinking?
 
Busy rest of the weekend for me. Here's the test game updated, thoughts on the rest in a few hours hopefully.

I did recreate the tiles/workers/etc exactly. I did not draw in the rest of the new discoveries. In the test game we started without any overflow beakers so I WB'd in the last few beakers of Mysticism in to match where we are in the real game. I think that is right now but we might have a 1-2 beakers of overflow in the test game. I don't know how to check for sure aside from trying to gauge the width of the solid green on the tech bar.
 

Attachments

Research

If we have no plan to try and Bulb Astro, then Meditation shaves a turn or 2 off of the path to Priesthood. However, if we go Poly and take MC from the Oracle, we are only a few techs from being able to bulb Astro. 4 GS's would be needed to Bulb Machinery > Optics > Astro after learning Alphabet and Calendar.

Learning Meditation on the other hand allows for Bulbing Philosophy which helps the path the Liberalism.

I don't really have a preference, however, I usually go Poly because it also opens up Literature for the Great Library.

Capturing the Barb city? I'm sure there is food in the fog, but it is still a long way away, and Chariots are not the best attackers. I think in the immediate future, our hammers can be put to better use.

Summary
Research = Poly > Priesthood > Pottery

Orleans
WB > finish Warrior > Worker > Settler
 
Cities and settling plans: I really think we need to slow down and consider carefully as there are a lot of different options being thrown out.

I strongly disagree with Oracle in the Wheat/PH city. If we are serious about an Oracle gambit, we make sure we get it and I think that means using Paris. Also the Wheat/PH city is not a great 2nd legendary. It's very food poor for working all its tiles. (the wheat, few FP and few PH are good for an early city but the large number of plains means it will grow very slowly from size 8 or so on. ) Also it has 4 tiles overlap with Paris, which is not a problem normally but is not great if those are supposed to be two Legends.

I'm not sure if that means I'd settle deer/fish/pig next though. That's another great early Library site. However I think if we want to be sure of Oracle we don't have time for Writing before something->Priesthood.

Re: barb city - Yes probably not worth attacking soon with Chariots as that can be hammer expensive and we have other fine sites to claim. Keeping an eye on it for possible 'poaching' is a good idea if we can spare a warrior. (IE often on Emperor the AI will attack barb cities with insufficient force to capture it one turn, so you may be able to snag it cheap by sending say 2 chariots when it is down to one archer left).

Re: astro bulb - uh, not sure this is worth it, and sort of early to be deciding, but would like to point out that the 4 bulbs Ronnie mentioned require researching/stealing the following:

Metal Casting (still Oracled presumably)
Sailing
Math
Alpha
Calendar
Aesthetics
Iron Working
Compass

and avoiding
Meditation (as Ronnie pointed out, otherwise Philosophy enters the bulb list)
Civil Service/Theology (to avoid Paper, Edu, Printing Press)
So not quite as simple as he laid out.
 
Re: astro bulb - uh, not sure this is worth it, and sort of early to be deciding, but would like to point out that the 4 bulbs Ronnie mentioned require researching/stealing the following:IMO, definitely not too early to decide one way or another.

Metal Casting (still Oracled presumably)
Sailingfigured we would need it anyway
Mathforgot this, but also figure we need it anyway
Alpha
Calendar
Aestheticsbelow Astro on GS Bulb list
Iron Working
Compassforgot this for sure:(

and avoiding
Meditation (as Ronnie pointed out, otherwise Philosophy enters the bulb list)
Civil Service/Theology (to avoid Paper, Edu, Printing Press)
So not quite as simple as he laid out.
This is why it needs to be decided early! Are foreign overseas trade routes and tech trading more important than early Bureaucracy? This is the main question.

RE: Oracle...rethinking....Paris is definitely safer and smarter! Played with the test game a bit this AM (thanks for updating Tim), oddly, Oracle was first Wonder to go in distant land in 1000BC. More workers and less settlers to guarantee enough time to chop also!
 
My thoughts:

Agreed on tech path up to pottery.

Builds: I think Paris should go settler/worker/Oracle. The warrior from Orleans might be required for MP duty so Paris can grow to 5 while building Oracle, not sure about growth speed there. If it does grow, we should mine another hill in Paris BFC to speed up Oracle.

On city placement. Regardless of how much I like settling PH's, I think next city should not go there, but instead in the desert tile 1N of wheat. There it will have wheat, 5 FP's and a oasis. The wheat will be easily irrigated from the oasis after CS. Those FP's could be cottaged and still we'd have food surplus to work at least 3 hills. No overlap with Paris and there we have a very decent 2nd legendary city in the end, but a strong help to our economy in the early/mid game.

Still on city placement, I made an effort at dotmapping our surrounding lands.

Civ4ScreenShot0175.jpg


It is too early to tell if the southern cities will still be up for grabbing at the point we get there, but I think they would be important to our expansion, and also to block Brennus's expansion and possibly his access to horses.

Finally, I suspect most here aren't very interested in some early warring, but if it was just me I'd keep that southernmost warrior close to Brennus' borders to see if we could capture a worker. Given that we are almost ready to connect horses, a couple of chariots could do a nice job at pillaging/choking the Celts and keeping them weak until we got ready to annex their lands.
 
I've been out of touch over the weekend, so lots of posts to catch up on.

Excellent turn set Timmy :goodjob:

Scattered thoughts

Long Term: I think we should be looking for a cottage fueled economy for two reasons: 1) We expect a long game right out to future tech, giving plenty of time for cottages to grow and 2) We shouldn't rely too much on Bulbs because we need Great People for other things, eg, Corporations, GArtist bombs and Religious Shrines.
Avoiding CS/Education in order to bulb Astro doesn't sound wise. An Astro bulb sounds like the kind of gambit you would play if you wanted a fast Domination or Conquest victory, or were isolated.

Wonders: In light of the proposed focus on cottages, is building the Pyramids :hammers: well spent? We can also take a gamble on Ramesses building them for us.
I'm not a big fan of building wonders just for fail gold at this early stage. If we had Stone or Marble then it's a much better deal, but we don't. Or do we?

Culture: Don't get carried away thinking about Legendary cities just yet. This will happen completely naturally assuming we spread Sid's Sushi corp and have a few GArtists to bomb. Cities #1 and #2 will most likely be our own capital and another captured from the AI.

Fog busting: Note that the game mechanic for successful fog busting is that 1) No barb will spawn in unfogged lands and 2) no barb will spawn within 2 tiles of a Unit or City. Cities make good fog busters because they literally unfog them. But beware, tiles just outside the unfogged area are fair game unless we have a unit nearby,

Immediate goals:
Tech path: I think that Medi instead of Poly is a better choice simply because it is cheaper. Hence: Medi > PH > Pottery.

Settling sites: Am I right to think that our next 3 cities will be: a) Deer/Fish/Pig NE of Paris, b) Wheat SW of Paris, c) Gems/Clams/Pig SE of Paris?
c) isn't really productive until IW. Main reason for settling it earlier would be to avoid disappointment of Brennus beating us to it or interfering.
b) has potentially 15:hammers:/turn at size 4 (wheat+3 pmines). Long term not the best, but very good short term.
a) has potentially +10:food:,4:hammers: at size 4 (deer+fish+pigs+gmine). Even without the deer (need Hunting tech) it can manage +8:food:,4:hammers: at size 3 and will grow to that quite fast. A possible National Epic contender (6 specialists at size 9)
Personally, I think they are all valuable cities that we should settle ASAP, even if it means slowing our tech down temporarily to do so.

City builds: Oracle in Paris, though won't be in this turnset yet.
Orleans should make use of the whip - get it into some sort of cycle like: Build warriors/chariots while growing to size 5, 2 pop whip a worker/settler down to size 3, repeat.
Paris not so much whipping. Settler > Worker > Chariot (to allow growth) sounds ok to me.
New cities: WB if needed, else Warriors while they grow.
I'm not 100% confident of these. Any combination of Settlers/Workers/Warriors/Chariots I think is good.

Edit: XPost with C63 - The modified wheat city site sounds good to me. Trading a little short term potential for better long term. I notice now that none of the proposed cities make use of the Fish E of Paris. I guess we could cram a mediocre city in there later on.

If I had to vote on settling order, I think I would go #3 Fish/Pigs/Deer (next), #4 Wheat, #5 Clam/Pigs/Gems.
 
...
On city placement. Regardless of how much I like settling PH's, I think next city should not go there, but instead in the desert tile 1N of wheat. There it will have wheat, 5 FP's and a oasis. The wheat will be easily irrigated from the oasis after CS. Those FP's could be cottaged and still we'd have food surplus to work at least 3 hills. No overlap with Paris and there we have a very decent 2nd legendary city in the end, but a strong help to our economy in the early/mid game.
...
I'm OK with founding the Wheat City on the desert tile. I made a similar suggestion in post #180 a few days ago.

...
Settling sites: Am I right to think that our next 3 cities will be: a) Deer/Fish/Pig NE of Paris, b) Wheat SW of Paris, c) Gems/Clams/Pig SE of Paris?
c) isn't really productive until IW. Main reason for settling it earlier would be to avoid disappointment of Brennus beating us to it or interfering.
b) has potentially 15:hammers:/turn at size 4 (wheat+3 pmines). Long term not the best, but very good short term.
a) has potentially +10:food:,4:hammers: at size 4 (deer+fish+pigs+gmine). Even without the deer (need Hunting tech) it can manage +8:food:,4:hammers: at size 3 and will grow to that quite fast. A possible National Epic contender (6 specialists at size 9)
Personally, I think they are all valuable cities that we should settle ASAP, even if it means slowing our tech down temporarily to do so.
...
If I had to vote on settling order, I think I would go #3 Fish/Pigs/Deer (next), #4 Wheat, #5 Clam/Pigs/Gems.
Although the Fish/Pigs/Deer city is a good site, I think it's pretty safe behind Paris' borders, and we should have plenty of warning if Brennus or Ramesses tried to settle there.

The Wheat city on the desert tile would gives us some better fog busting in the neighborhood of the Barb city, and should start putting our Cultural pressure on the Barb City in short order. Would it be worth the effort to build a Monument in the Wheat city to try and culture flip the Barb city? If we flip it, we could always raze it if there isn't anything other than the Wine in it's BFC.
 
In terms of city order, I now think Wheat/FP should be next and deer/pigs/fish 4th because of tech order (looking like Meditation->PH->Pottery->Writing). Deer/pig/fish needs a library to shine whereas wheat/FP can contribute some cottages to help with the early techs.

@Wheat city location - I could go either way on the desert tile or the plains hill. But we aren't gonna culture flip the barb city. To do that before AI capture you'd have to settle minimum distance, 1S of the incense - but that loses all the hills and doesn't sound attractive.

One note on Oracle building in Paris - yes it will probably reach size 5 while building it. Bear in mind its fastest hammers at size 5 requires 4 mines. (It works 3mines + corn always, alternates farmed FP and PH mine to stay food neutral). However that's probably not needed for oracle, if we go settler->worker->oracle the wonder will be nearly done by the time it grows.

Further down line:

@adrian cottage comments - yes we will be in for the long haul. I'm not sure if it makes sense to grow too many of our own cottages though or capture some well cottaged AI land in the midgame. Our land is not great cottage friendly, some nice floodplains but little grassland close to home. Believe Pyramids is a possibility but I still think GLH (eventually) at Orleans is a strong play (and should be done before Pyramids).
Also thanks for reminding us about the Great Persons and shrines against doing a bulb gambit.

@C63 re Brennus: I don't think the worker steal / choke is a great idea. Partly just cause I'm a sissy without practical experience with it. But also I think getting a worker steal (without the WoodsmanII AI blindess) will be hard since he has a holy city, the workers won't likely be in his outer ring. Maybe at his 2nd city but that appears to be on the far side, hard to escort him home.

The other reason is our 3-shrine goal. We almost certainly want Brennus to build the shrine for us before we stomp him so early chokes don't sound great.
 
Just got home from work and catching up on the ideas. I'll try to summarize as best I can in no particular order.

1) Settle city #3 , ???, on desert instead of PH with wheat or deer/pig/clam.
2) 2 pop whip Orleans in rhythm approximately every 10 turns
3) Build chop Oracle in Paris ASAP taking MC
4) I'm personally a bit confused on the cottage question, but lean towards cottaging most of the flood plains.
5) Research ???, I still like Poly before Meditation for opening up Literature and the ability to possibly bulb Theology.
6) Worker steal, both C63 and Timmy make valid points, not sure which way I'm leaning here.
7) I think we need more workers
8) Duckweed said once upon a time in evaluating what to build next, "is any build better than a settler?" Well....???
 
Just a quick few thoughts about the PP.

Settling on the desert we will need a road asap to connect.

Is it worth whipping Orleans? With 3 special tiles it will be working seems a bit of a waste to whip of one pop from working the tile. Plus what will we build which needs whipping. Workers/settlers at size 4?

New city can concentrate on increasing our military?

I vote against a worker steal. Let Brennus/Ram improve their lands and we can take them later. Another downside. Effectively we need Alpha to get IW which we need asap (hence my early suggestion for taking it from the Oracle). If we declare on Brennus getting early alpha won't help us in trading any techs with him once we get alpha.

Although I'm not keen on cottages normally I think in this case if we are going to go for priest - pot - writing we need some form of commerce/research available so will have to get it from somewhere and cottaging the flood plains is one way.

Duckweeds advice. Agree on the advice. Don't mind building more settlers just don't think we can afford to settle them. No problem having them in place as long as they don't cost us money though.

I've put this in a spoiler thread as not sure if we should use it or not though its quite clear on the BUFFY Mod so should be ok.. :)

Edit.
Spoiler :
Its just been mentioned in the maintenance thread about using a big whip overflow (or chop) to generate gold whilst building warriors etc. I've used the same sort of thing on walls with protective/stone etc a few times but would help us out with cash and a good use for one pop whipping Orleans.
 
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