SGOTM 16 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

[adrianj]

My two cents:
I'd prefer Oracle ASAP. Even 1280 BC isn't exactly lightning quick for an Oracle build on an Emperor game.
Given the choice between an earlier city #3 or earlier city #4, I'd prefer earlier #3.
Given the choice between 2 workers + extra military vs 4 workers I'd prefer 4 workers.

 

[Ronnie1]

Continuing on....

What the test save looks like at start of T80.

 

[Ronnie1]

My two cents:
I'd prefer Oracle ASAP. Even 1280 BC isn't exactly lightning quick for an Oracle build on an Emperor game.
Given the choice between an earlier city #3 or earlier city #4, I'd prefer earlier #3.
Given the choice between 2 workers + extra military vs 4 workers I'd prefer 4 workers.

I can try some other options later!

 

[Ronnie1]

I have an option to 2 pop whip the Oracle on T66, 2 turns sooner than previous best.

Lyons still founded T56 and Rheims founded T68.

3 workers(by T62) instead of 2.

This is safer for sure!

 

[Ronnie1]

I have played!

The Save

Results went mostly as expected, with a minor change somewhere in my tile use.
The Upload Log

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 2040 BC to 1280 BC:

Turn 49, 2040 BC: Ramesses II adopts Slavery!

Turn 50, 2000 BC: Brennus adopts Slavery!

Turn 51, 1960 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Orleans. Work has now begun on a Warrior.

Turn 56, 1760 BC: Lyons has been founded.
Turn 56, 1760 BC: You have discovered Meditation!

Turn 57, 1720 BC: Stonehenge has been built in a far away land!

Turn 60, 1600 BC: The borders of Lyons have expanded!

Turn 61, 1560 BC: You have discovered Priesthood!
Turn 61, 1560 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 66, 1360 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 20 ℤ for Paris.
Turn 66, 1360 BC: You have discovered Pottery!

Turn 67, 1320 BC: Paris can hurry The Oracle for 1⇴ with 19ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 67, 1320 BC: Lyons will grow to size 3 on the next turn.
Turn 67, 1320 BC: Louis XIV has completed The Oracle!

Turn 68, 1280 BC: Lyons has grown to size 3.
Turn 68, 1280 BC: You have discovered Metal Casting!

The Autolog

Spoiler :

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 49/500 (2040 BC) [10-Oct-2012 18:56:32]
100% Research: 15 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 12 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Ramesses II(Egypt) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 50/500 (2000 BC) [10-Oct-2012 18:56:32]
100% Research: 15 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 9 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Brennus(Celtia) from 'Tribalism' to 'Slavery'

Turn 51/500 (1960 BC) [10-Oct-2012 18:57:22]
100% Research: 15 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 6 in the bank

After End Turn:
Orleans grows to size 3
Orleans finishes: Work Boat

Turn 52/500 (1920 BC) [10-Oct-2012 18:58:25]
100% Research: 16 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 3 in the bank

Turn 53/500 (1880 BC) [10-Oct-2012 18:59:20]
A Fishing Boats was built near Orleans
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 14 per turn, 0 in the bank

After End Turn:
Orleans finishes: Warrior

Turn 54/500 (1840 BC) [10-Oct-2012 19:00:11]
Orleans begins: Warrior (3 turns)
Orleans begins: Chariot (6 turns)
Orleans begins: Warrior (3 turns)
100% Research: 17 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -3 per turn, 14 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paris finishes: Settler

Turn 55/500 (1800 BC) [10-Oct-2012 19:01:09]
Paris begins: Chariot (5 turns)
100% Research: 17 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -4 per turn, 11 in the bank

After End Turn:
Orleans grows to size 4

Turn 56/500 (1760 BC) [10-Oct-2012 19:02:31]
Lyons founded
Lyons begins: Warrior (15 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 12 per turn, 7 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Meditation
Orleans finishes: Warrior

Turn 57/500 (1720 BC) [10-Oct-2012 19:03:51]
Research begun: Priesthood (94 Turns)
Orleans begins: Worker (5 turns)
100% Research: 21 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 19 in the bank

Turn 58/500 (1680 BC) [10-Oct-2012 19:05:55]
100% Research: 22 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 11 in the bank

Turn 59/500 (1640 BC) [10-Oct-2012 19:06:31]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 14 per turn, 3 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paris grows to size 5

Turn 60/500 (1600 BC) [10-Oct-2012 19:07:23]
100% Research: 24 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 17 in the bank

After End Turn:
Lyons's borders expand

Turn 61/500 (1560 BC) [10-Oct-2012 19:08:14]
100% Research: 23 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 9 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Priesthood
Paris finishes: Chariot
Orleans finishes: Worker

Other Player Actions:
Judaism founded in a distant land
Attitude Change: Ramesses II (Egypt) towards Brennus (Celtia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 62/500 (1520 BC) [10-Oct-2012 19:08:53]
Paris begins: The Oracle (10 turns)
Orleans begins: Settler (8 turns)
A Farm was built near Lyons
A Farm was built near Paris
Research begun: Pottery (4 Turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 13 per turn, 1 in the bank

After End Turn:
Lyons grows to size 2

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Ramesses II (Egypt) towards Brennus (Celtia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 63/500 (1480 BC) [10-Oct-2012 19:10:43]
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 15 per turn, 14 in the bank

Turn 64/500 (1440 BC) [10-Oct-2012 19:11:34]
100% Research: 23 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 29 in the bank

Turn 65/500 (1400 BC) [10-Oct-2012 19:12:30]
100% Research: 23 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 21 in the bank

Turn 66/500 (1360 BC) [10-Oct-2012 19:13:36]
100% Research: 22 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -8 per turn, 13 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Pottery
Lyons finishes: Warrior

Turn 67/500 (1320 BC) [10-Oct-2012 19:16:09]
Research begun: Writing (6 Turns)
Lyons begins: Granary (30 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 13 per turn, 5 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Orleans
Paris finishes: The Oracle
Orleans finishes: Settler
Lyons grows to size 3

Turn 68/500 (1280 BC) [10-Oct-2012 19:17:34]
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Metal Casting

 

[adrianj]

Great! We can all breathe a sigh of relief.

No barbarian battles at all I see. That's nice.

Writing tech is almost certainly our next. Personally, I think we aim for Alphabet after that and then hope to pick up Sailing/Masonry through trade.

 

[Ronnie1]

The weird part is I can't find Ramesses at all. He must be straight south of Brennus.

The tundra in the north goes no where. There are land masses to our west reachable by galley.

There is a wounded barb archer running around in the W-SW.

There were 3 Archers in the barb city when I revealed it.

 

[Grifftavian]

Very Nice, Ron!

The turn set roster order is....

1) Grifftavian
2) Ozbenno
3) timmy827
4) Ronnie1 Just Played
5) Conquistador63 Up Now
6) Sleepless On Deck
7) McArine

Turn Set Player Emeritus & Team Advisor

 

[timmy827]

Great! With the additional island I really want GLH now.

adrianj - tough call on tech order post Writing. Alpha is not that much more expensive then Sailing + Masonry so I am tempted. Do worry about trades not being available though, could see some scenarios:

- Brennnus hasn't researched Sailing as he has no coastal cities
- one or both trying Pyramids so won't trade Masonry
-or both Brennus and Ramsses have one of the techs, but trading with one of them triggers a 'traded with worst enemies' and knocks them below Cautious (longshot but I'm paraniod)

 

[Ozbenno]

Well done Ronnie! Happy to have Oracle in the bank.

Trouble with going for Alphabet is that most civs won't trade Masonry until Pyramids are built or they are Friendly (can't see either happening). Maybe safer to go Sailing after Writing and get going on GLH.

 

[Conquistador 63]

I got the save. Any chance of getting an updated test save?

Managed to give it a quick look, so a draft PPP follows:

Tech order: Writing. Should take about 9 turns, maybe a little more since city 4 is about to be founded. This would be a sensible point to end my turnset.

Builds:
Paris: granary, 2pop whip when grow to 6, overflow to forge.
Orleans: granary, WB for city4. Or maybe the other way around?
Lyons: granary
City 4: granary

Worker actions: road to city 4, improve pigs, mine hills, cottage some FP's
Warriors: those southern fogbusters can be safely moved a little further south, I guess
Chariot: South by Southeast, to be ready to explore Brennus and Ramesses land when we get OB with them.

Settling: I suppose the current settler's destination is pigs/fish/deer. No more cities in this turnset, but it doesn't hurt to plan ahead a bit, so there goes yet another dotmap proposal....

 

[Ronnie1]

Test games close, but not exact.

Saved right before completion of Oracle so you can try to make adjustments where necessary.

 

[Sleepless]

Haven't really looked at the save. But quick couple of random thoughts.

City 4 -Rheims. If we mine the shared hill with Paris it will be able to knock out a quick wb for itself. An exploring wb from Orleans wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Brennus now has 3 cities so looking at the map city 6 could be bumped up to city 5 if its still available to get our culture on the corn tile?

Tech - writing definitley.

Also lacking workers though with our current limited happy cap not so much of a problem.

 

[adrianj]

Could we fit in another settler during this turnset for city #5? Maybe Paris = Granary (part build till size 6) > settler > granary > forge?
Edit: Actually, I see Paris is at Happy Cap, so forget about the grow to size 6 idea.

@C63 - your proposal for city #6 misses the gems in favour of settling riverside. Was that your intent?

Tech path: Writing is for certain. I'd just like to point out the other reason we want Alphabet = set up the IW steal. The sooner we get that, the sooner we can start chopping away the jungle.

@Sleepless - does city #4 work a mine to build a WB or work the Pigs and then whip the WB? I guess using Paris' mine will see the WB built in 30/5=6 turns. The Pigs will be much later since it requires time to for borders to pop + time to build pasture. I think I've answered my own question

Orleans build: Exploring the idea of WB first, so that city #4 has the fish connected very soon after settling. How many turns would it take for the WB to sail into position, compared to if city #4 built it itself? It looks like it could be 10+ turns of sailing time. So, perhaps Orleans builds Granary > Wb (exploring) > Forge?

 

[adrianj]

Some other thoughts:

Fogbusters - the warriors could push out a little further to fogbust better. Perhaps we should map out positions and build more warriors/chariots if needed?

Hunting - we need the Hunting tech to improve the deer tiles, of which we will have 2 within city BFCs. Tech it directly, or another reason to go Alphabet sooner?

Espionage - have we focused our espionage points on Brennus? Can somebody remind me what the little spy icons in the bottom right scoreboard actually mean?

 

[Sleepless]

@Sleepless - does city #4 work a mine to build a WB or work the Pigs and then whip the WB? I guess using Paris' mine will see the WB built in 30/5=6 turns. The Pigs will be much later since it requires time to for borders to pop + time to build pasture. I think I've answered my own question This might be better.
With the overflow and providing there is a route via the North and no barb galleys an immediate wb from Orleans would reach the site in time for the border pop in Rheims.

Will add apart from a few ep points on Ram all ep is on Brennus. Though looks like we have at least one other AI on the land as well. The spy icons show we have more ep
points on them than they have on us. Currently 12/11 on Ram and 156/123 on Brennus.

After writing I'm definitley torn between alpha or masonry/sailing. More tempted for the latter if we want to build the GLh/Mids. If we forego them alpha would be more sensible due to the Southern jungle. Would still have to wait for the AI to tech it tho.

Interestingly Ram has built SH so with his prophet slots a good chance he will bulb theology and build the christian shrine?

 

[adrianj]

Does Ram really only have 11 on us? We met him ~T30, over 37 turns ago. Is it possible that he has met more than 4 rivals and is not investing any points into us? Brennus' number of 123 is also unusual, suggesting to me he knows at least one other AI.

Does anybody have time to go back to our older saves and take note of our actual points for/against for each of Ram and Brennus?

I suggest we make sure we have a chariot (or two) ready near Brennus' lands so that as soon as we've learnt Writing we can sign an OB with him and Ram and get down there to meet some more AI. Meeting even more AI is yet another reason I like Alphabet Surely they can't all be aiming to build the Pyramids, and at the very least we will learn Hunting and Sailing off someone.

 

[Conquistador 63]

Tech path: Writing is for certain. I'd just like to point out the other reason we want Alphabet = set up the IW steal. The sooner we get that, the sooner we can start chopping away the jungle.

True, but will our measly 4ept from palace suffice to steal it any soon? Or will we have to wait for CH/Spy specialists? That was the reason I proposed going for Oracle/CoL sometime ago.

@C63 - your proposal for city #6 misses the gems in favour of settling riverside. Was that your intent?

It would be a productive city before IW - corn, 2 hills, some riverside grass, 3 forests to chop. Jungle gems could be claimed by a coastal city later on, but just an idea.

Fogbusters - the warriors could push out a little further to fogbust better. Perhaps we should map out positions and build more warriors/chariots if needed?

Hunting - we need the Hunting tech to improve the deer tiles, of which we will have 2 within city BFCs. Tech it directly, or another reason to go Alphabet sooner?

Already mentioned the fogbusting issue in my PPP. Writing is actually almost same cost as Hunting (costs 7t?), given we already have 3 pre-reqs for it.

I suggest we make sure we have a chariot (or two) ready near Brennus' lands so that as soon as we've learnt Writing we can sign an OB with him and Ram and get down there to meet some more AI.

Already planned for in the PPP.

 

[Sleepless]

Stealing IW. We do get a 50% discount on having a spy settled for 5 turns. Just hope he doesn't get discovered..

Also we can raise the ep slider to get us enough points. Not sure how much we need to steal IW though.

@AJ In 2040BC we had 12 - 0 points against Ram so he only allocated 11 on us since then and we were 80 - 47 against Brennus.

 

[adrianj]

Cost to steal IW comes down to MissionCost * Modifier.

If I am reading this thread correctly: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/espionage_cost.php then cost = Tech cost * 1.25 = 312 * 1.25 = 390.

Our modifiers could be +20% for distance, nothing from religion, -20% for trade (assuming we have OB), 0% or worse for espionage spending, -50% for stationary spy. [[[1 * 0.8] * 1.2] * 0.5] = 48%.

Total = 390 * 0.48 = 187. I've probably made a mistake somewhere, and the distance and spending modifiers probably aren't correct, but this is a good ballpark figure. We're already at 156. In 11 turns time we'll be at 200 without even trying. By the time we have Alpha, built a spy, sent it to Brennus and sat in a city we will almost certainly have more than enough.