SGOTM 16 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

[adrianj]

2040 BC = T49?
1280 BC = T68.

19 turns in between. Ram added 11. Brennus added 76.

Ram has averaged 1.72 /turn against us. I guess that could be reasonable if he has to allocate it between 3 or more opponents. If the only rivals he knows are Brennus and us I would have expected this number to be exactly 2.

Brennus has averaged exactly 4... Honestly, I hadn't realised the AI ever adjusted its espionage spending. Either Brennus is specifically targeting us, or he is purposely adjusting his espionage slider. Or, ominously, the mapmaker has given him some + building...

Already mentioned the fogbusting issue in my PPP

Quite right. Sorry for missing it.

 

[Grifftavian]

...
Does anybody have time to go back to our older saves and take note of our actual points for/against for each of Ram and Brennus?...

Here you go...

Save
T27/2920 BC > Brennus/Us = 3/8 & Ramesses/Us = 0/0
T36/2560 BC > Brennus/Us = 12/32 & Ramesses/Us = 0/12 (still at +2 EP/turn for both)
T49/2040 BC > Brennus/Us = 47/80 & Ramesses/Us = 0/12 (+4 EP/turn to Brennus)
T68/1280 BC > Brennus/Us = 123/156 & Ramesses/Us = 11/12

EDIT: a couple of x-posts while I was gathering data!

 

[Ronnie1]

I can go back and look at the autosaves when I get home and see when Ramesses started putting some EP on us.

RE: Fogbusting....I have tried to stick to the forested hills because there is a barb archer running around just to our SW. I tried to get the farthest warrior 3SW of current position but didn't make it.

If we really want GLH, then we need to get Sailing + Masonry ahead of Alphabet IMO.

I am unsure which way to go on research.

 

[Ronnie1]

I can go back and look at the autosaves when I get home and see when Ramesses started putting some EP on us.

No I can't .....oops
When I updated the test game, it over wrote all the auto saves. Regardless, Let's just say that recently Ramesses started assigning EP's towards us.

 

[timmy827]

Some quick thoughts. I have family visiting this weekend so likely won't be checking in for a few days.

City builds: I would swap granaries to Libraries when Writing in (Yes, realise that C63 plans to stop then anyways). Our cities have good food and low happy cap so a granary is not quite as valuable. Similarly I would go library before forge in Paris - we have plentiful production .

In more immediately-relevant advice I think one more worker should be a current build somewhere. With the low happy cap, 4 workers for 4 cities might be enough but 3 for 4 doesn't sound good.

Worker actions - I'm not so hot on the roading to new city sites while Paris still works an unimproved tile. With no foreign trade yet, and no need for resource connection right away, a road is only +1 commerce for a fair number of worker turns...I would finish the road 1NE of paris since worker turn has already been burned on moving there, but then mine 1N before roading it. (or maybe not road it if the pigs are available then - don't have time to examine the culture pop timing.)

 

[Ronnie1]

I disagree with Timmy in some respects.

I would like to see a forge ASAP in Paris for the Engineer Specialist. Granaries are almost always the BEST payoff in cities where the whip is applied regularly. Given the low happy cap, we should be whipping a lot.

More Workers is a good idea IMO also. We could 2 pop whip one in Paris and overflow for a great boost to a Forge there. The other option for a quick worker is the big overflow in Orleans.

 

[Conquistador 63]

I'm with Ron. However, now that we've learned pottery, I think we just build/whip granaries before whipping anything else. I'd like to have granaries ready when we learn writing so we could whip the cheap libs asap. I am available to play anytime this weekend but will wait for some sort of consensus to arise.

 

[Sleepless]

No problem with granaries now as we don't have alot else to build anyway. Saying that cheap forges are available but if we are going to whip our cities down to 2 pop regularily the granaries will be needed. Of course the forges will give a bonus on whipped hammers as well.

 

[Grifftavian]

...Managed to give it a quick look, so a draft PPP follows:

Tech order: Writing. Should take about 9 turns, maybe a little more since city 4 is about to be founded. This would be a sensible point to end my turnset.

Builds:
Paris: granary, 2pop whip when grow to 6, overflow to forge.
Orleans: granary, WB for city4. Or maybe the other way around?
Lyons: granary
City 4: granary

Worker actions: road to city 4, improve pigs, mine hills, cottage some FP's
Warriors: those southern fogbusters can be safely moved a little further south, I guess
Chariot: South by Southeast, to be ready to explore Brennus and Ramesses land when we get OB with them.

Settling: I suppose the current settler's destination is pigs/fish/deer. No more cities in this turnset...

Looks like "WB for City4" in Orleans can be completed in 1 turn with 30 of the current 37 overflow. If I counted tiles correctly, takes that WB 8 turns to sail around to City4's Fish, which should be pretty close to when City4's borders expand to BFC. So IMO, build the WB now in Orleans, then build/whip Granary there, with overflow into Forge, same as Paris.

The rest of PPP looks good to me, so you have a Go from me for playing this weekend. Good Luck!

 

[Sleepless]

Mentioned it earlier as there is ice on 2 tiles at the top but looks like there is a way around for a wb from Orleans. Just hope no galleys.

 

[Grifftavian]

FWIW, Brennus has a Scout up North in the same forest tile where our fog-busting Warrior is sitting. He may get trapped up there once City4 gets founded. Would that make Brennus more inclined to sign an OB Treaty?

 

[Ozbenno]

Pretty sure Brennus would sign OB regardless (as we have no negatives with him), think the trapped scout might prompt him to ask us though.

Also think that there is a path through the ice for a WB if needed.

 

[Ronnie1]

I like WB from Orleans heading to Rheims, and worker 2 pop whipped in Paris overflowing to Forge.

Granaries whipped before Libraries are whipped every where except Paris where I would only whip right before (or after) we are going to grow to size 6.

I also say play when ready!

 

[Conquistador 63]

I like WB from Orleans heading to Rheims, and worker 2 pop whipped in Paris overflowing to Forge.

Granaries whipped before Libraries are whipped every where except Paris where I would only whip right before (or after) we are going to grow to size 6.

I also say play when ready!

Yes, Sir!

Played +-8 turns, up to beginning of t76 (975BC). We will learn Writing at the end of the current turn. I did not move units, as there are some options on the table. Same applies to a choice of build in Paris.

The save is here.

The upload log:

Spoiler :

Here is your Session Turn Log from 1280 BC to 975 BC:

Turn 68, 1280 BC: You have discovered Metal Casting!
Turn 68, 1280 BC: You have trained a Work Boat in Orleans. Work has now begun on a Granary.

Turn 70, 1200 BC: Rheims has been founded.
Turn 70, 1200 BC: You have constructed a Granary in Paris. Work has now begun on a Forge.

Turn 71, 1160 BC: Barbarian's Archer (2.24) vs Louis XIV's Warrior 0 (3.40)
Turn 71, 1160 BC: Combat Odds: 12.6%
Turn 71, 1160 BC: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 71, 1160 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 71, 1160 BC: (Feature Defense: +20%)
Turn 71, 1160 BC: Louis XIV's Warrior 0 is hit for 18 (82/100HP)
Turn 71, 1160 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (46/100HP)
Turn 71, 1160 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (24/100HP)
Turn 71, 1160 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (2/100HP)
Turn 71, 1160 BC: Barbarian's Archer is hit for 22 (0/100HP)
Turn 71, 1160 BC: Louis XIV's Warrior 0 has defeated Barbarian's Archer!

Turn 72, 1120 BC: The Great Wall has been built in a far away land!

Turn 74, 1040 BC: Orleans has grown to size 4.
Turn 74, 1040 BC: Orleans has become unhappy.
Turn 74, 1040 BC: Orleans can hurry Granary for 2⇴ with 33ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 13 turns.
Turn 74, 1040 BC: The borders of Rheims are about to expand.
Turn 74, 1040 BC: The borders of Rheims have expanded!

Turn 75, 1000 BC: Paris will become unhappy on the next turn.
Turn 75, 1000 BC: Paris will grow to size 5 on the next turn.

Turn 76, 975 BC: Paris has grown to size 5.
Turn 76, 975 BC: Paris has become unhappy.
Turn 76, 975 BC: Lyons will become unhappy on the next turn.

The autolog:

Spoiler :

Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 68/500 (1280 BC) [14-Oct-2012 11:46:35]
Orleans begins: Work Boat (15 turns)
Orleans begins: Granary (30 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 12 per turn, 18 in the bank

After End Turn:
Orleans finishes: Work Boat

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Ramesses II (Egypt) towards Brennus (Celtia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 69/500 (1240 BC) [14-Oct-2012 11:52:31]
Paris begins: Forge (6 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 11 per turn, 30 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paris grows to size 6

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Ramesses II (Egypt) towards Brennus (Celtia), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 70/500 (1200 BC) [14-Oct-2012 11:57:30]
Rheims founded
Rheims begins: Granary (30 turns)
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 10 per turn, 41 in the bank

After End Turn:
The whip was applied in Paris
Paris finishes: Granary
Orleans grows to size 3

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Ramesses II (Egypt) towards Brennus (Celtia), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'

Turn 71/500 (1160 BC) [14-Oct-2012 12:01:45]
A Cottage was built near Lyons
0% Research: 0 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
100% Gold: 11 per turn, 51 in the bank

After End Turn:

Other Player Actions:
While defending in the wild near Lyons, Warrior 0 (1.64/2) defeats Barbarian Archer (Prob Victory: 87.4%)

Turn 72/500 (1120 BC) [14-Oct-2012 12:04:16]
80% Research: 20 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
20% Gold: -10 per turn, 62 in the bank

After End Turn:
Lyons grows to size 4

Turn 73/500 (1080 BC) [14-Oct-2012 12:07:08]
A Cottage was built near Orleans
80% Research: 21 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
20% Gold: -10 per turn, 52 in the bank

After End Turn:
Orleans grows to size 4

Turn 74/500 (1040 BC) [14-Oct-2012 12:09:30]
100% Research: 27 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -14 per turn, 42 in the bank

After End Turn:
Rheims's borders expand

Turn 75/500 (1000 BC) [14-Oct-2012 12:12:36]
A Cottage was built near Lyons
100% Research: 28 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: -14 per turn, 28 in the bank

After End Turn:
Paris grows to size 5
Paris finishes: Forge

Turn 76/500 (975 BC) [14-Oct-2012 12:14:23]
Paris begins: Worker (6 turns)

Some screenies:
Cities:

Spoiler :

Our lands: note our chariot next to Brennus' borders (and worker...), with Writing/OB available next turn.

Other notes:
@t69, Ramesses was annoyed with Brennus, but B wasn't R's worst enemy - definitely a 3rd AI is around.

 

[Conquistador 63]

Some comments:
I did not build workers: with low happy cap, whipping, and the engineer, we almost never worked unimproved tiles.

Paris has just built the forge. Maybe we build a settler for 1t, then a Lib next turn to allow it to grow back to 6, then 2 or 3-pop whip the settler with overflow onto a library? But we should kept the engineer hired at all times, we definitely need to try for the GE.

Orleans will be happy again next turn, we should let it finish its granary, then whip the Lib at size 5.

Lyons will grow to 5 and be unhappy next turn, when we can 2-pop whip the granary with a nice overflow into a Lib.

Rheims has been working a 4h tile borrowed from Paris since its foundation, but the fish will be netted this turn. Pigs are being pastured.

Brennus has settled a horse/corn city...

 

[Grifftavian]

Good job, C63! Based on the comment in your PPP, I assume you've finished your turn set. If you want to continue on, let us know. Otherwise...

The turn set roster order is....

1) Grifftavian
2) Ozbenno
3) timmy827
4) Ronnie1
5) Conquistador63 Just Played
6) Sleepless Up Now
7) McArine On Deck

Turn Set Player Emeritus & Team Advisor
adrainj

 

[Ozbenno]

Good work C63!

What to research next? I think if we want to chase the GLH we need Sailing next, can't wait for a trade. If we want to skip GLH then maybe Alphabet is the way to go next!

 

[adrianj]

Good set C63.

I'm writing this in an airport terminal - I'll be away for 8 days.

My opinion re tech path is still Alphabet next.

 

[Sleepless]

If C63 wants to carry on for a few more turns I'm fine with that. If not I'll have a look at the save (will anyway obviously ) and put up a PPP.

Some thoughts before hand.

We should turn off teching till we have libraries in our 3 main cities at least. Rheims will be a bit behind.

Tech. If we want to try the Glh/Mids Sailing + Masonry. Seems best to me. Just have to hope for a GE for the Mids if we will burn one on it. First GP would come not long after we finished Masonry. If not happy to go straight for alpha

If not I would prefer to build/chop the Mids in Paris asap and run more of a "specialist" economy against a "cottage" one. Thats if we do get the Mids!!

I agree with C63's dot map plan but think city 6 should become city 5 as that is likely where Brennus will settle next. Think the clam/pig/gem is safer for the moment.

 

[Conquistador 63]

I'm happy to hand over the save to sleepless.
I prefer the run to Alpha, so we can get over with the IW steal, but would like to know how many turns it will take us to learn it.