SGOTM 16 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

I will say Alpha also. Given that C63 is a 4 time Eptathlete, plus holds a zillion fastest space awards, I will always give his opinion due weight! ;)

The GLH is very intriguing, but I think we may have a chance to capture it, and tech trading earlier seems to make more sense.
 
I think that the GLH is a better play, Sailing isn't that many turns compared to Alphabet and with all the coastal cities we will have is a good investment.

Sailing is 10 turns, Masonry 7 and Alphabet 34 turns at our current rate (libraries will speed this up). What do we lose by delaying Alphabet by 17 turns or so?? We stand to gain a great deal by making a concerted run at GLH. Orleans could go granary/forge/lighthouse/GLH with some chops along the way. If we meet other AI once we get OB with Brennus, we may not even have to research Alphabet ourselves...

Just saying ;)
 
Will have a detailed look at the save tonight and put up a PPP.

I will turn off tech though whilst we are building libs in Paris/Orleans/Lyons. I can't see much benefit for forges in place of mil/settlers/workers whilst our happy cap is so low so unless there isn't anything else to build I don't plan on forges.

Good point about trading for alpha Ozbenno but as both Bren/Ram don't have writing we might find it takes a while for the AI to tech it and to head South ideally we need iron working asap.

If we will burn a GE (GP dependant) on the Mids no need for masonry now so will set the tech towards alpha but there will be very little put into it so in theory won't make much difference depnding on how quick the libs get built.

No barb prob atm but we are very weak military. Somewhere along the line the barb city should be razed and re-settled on the wine as well.

@AJ If your on holiday enjoy. :)
 
Brennus has put down his 3rd City to claim those southern Horses before we could get them with C63's proposed City 7. Submitted for Team consideration is an updated City Settlement plan, with Cities 5A & 7A shown with the White Dot-Maps in the attached screen shot. What does everyone think of these City Sites?
 
Well 7 is a non starter now due to brennus's city so in reality if we want both gems 5A would have to be the city site. Of course until we have IW it will have no food which was one of the reasons for the clams.

I'm pretty easy either way but if we want to block land and need IW to improve 5A I'd prefer to go with 5. I do think we need to try and get 5 and 6 up very quickly though. City 6 I like where it is as a city on the plains hill NW of the gems would get lots of green tiles and a couple of sugars for food. That would effectively block off our bit of land.

Thats if Brennus lets us of course. Though I can forsee him coming into the great French Empire some time in the future anyway. :)
 
^:yup: Without IW, all those southern city sites would just be for blocking Brennus' expansion. The city I marked as 7A could be productive fairly soon now that we know Fishing. It could build a WB for the Fish in ~7 turns, net the fish 8 turns after founding, and start a 2nd WB for the clams. Perhaps it should be City #5?????
 
I think that the GLH is a better play, Sailing isn't that many turns compared to Alphabet and with all the coastal cities we will have is a good investment.

Sailing is 10 turns, Masonry 7 and Alphabet 34 turns at our current rate (libraries will speed this up). What do we lose by delaying Alphabet by 17 turns or so?? We stand to gain a great deal by making a concerted run at GLH. Orleans could go granary/forge/lighthouse/GLH with some chops along the way. If we meet other AI once we get OB with Brennus, we may not even have to research Alphabet ourselves...

Just saying ;)
These are all very good points OZ. My concern is that at this late stage, do we have time to get GLH anyway?
Will have a detailed look at the save tonight and put up a PPP.

I will turn off tech though whilst we are building libs in Paris/Orleans/Lyons. I can't see much benefit for forges in place of mil/settlers/workers whilst our happy cap is so low so unless there isn't anything else to build I don't plan on forges.

Good point about trading for alpha Ozbenno but as both Bren/Ram don't have writing we might find it takes a while for the AI to tech it and to head South ideally we need iron working asap.

If we will burn a GE (GP dependant) on the Mids no need for masonry now so will set the tech towards alpha but there will be very little put into it so in theory won't make much difference depnding on how quick the libs get built.

No barb prob atm but we are very weak military. Somewhere along the line the barb city should be razed and re-settled on the wine as well.

@AJ If your on holiday enjoy. :)
RE: Forges.....early cheap Forges give us a 25% boost to almost every hammer generated be it base/chopped/popped. I like early Forges almost everywhere.

^:yup: Without IW, all those southern city sites would just be for blocking Brennus' expansion. The city I marked as 7A could be productive fairly soon now that we know Fishing. It could build a WB for the Fish in ~7 turns, net the fish 8 turns after founding, and start a 2nd WB for the clams. Perhaps it should be City #5?????
I still like 5, 7A is doable also and can be useful for early scientists. The barb city is a good location with the pigs also.
 
My plan for building Forges looks like this. 2 pop whip settlers or workers for max overflow(x2) into a Forge. Then possibly, depending on food, 2 pop whip the Forge. This way we don't slow down our expansion, and we get the benefits very early.
 
Well managed a look at the save.

Both Paris/Orleans have whip unhappy.

City builds.

Paris on worker atm (think settler is better whilst we don't have any pop). Will change to Lib next turn and 2 pop whip once unhappy goes in 3 turns overflow into settler and keep GE at all times.

Orleans 1 pop whip of granary overflow into lib.

Lyons 2 pop whip gran this turn overflow into Lib.

Rheims change gran - lib and work fish till pig pastured and 2 pop whip lib when available.

Worker actions.

Mine river ph for Lyons. Second worker road to city 5 location. 3rd worker mine ph after pigs pastured.

Might (read will) have to delay whips for one turn as we don't have enough money to get writing this turn if I whip away some commerce tiles.

Also Ram is Brennus's worse enemy so will hold off OB for the moment with him till we at least find them.

Tech will be set on alpha but at 0% whilst we get our libraries up.

I'm unlikely to be able to play till Friday (can tonight i.e now but no time for discussion)so if someone wants to grab it now thats OK.
 
My plan for building Forges looks like this. 2 pop whip settlers or workers for max overflow(x2) into a Forge. Then possibly, depending on food, 2 pop whip the Forge. This way we don't slow down our expansion, and we get the benefits very early.

Agreed but unlikely to have time to do this in my turnset if we want the libraries. Will need to grow back asap so settlers/workers will have to wait a little bit as well. So puttin hammers into forges whilst growing then changing to settler/worker once grown to happy cap seems the way to go?
 
I was about to post the stuff below a few hours ago, but RL forced it to wait.

I agree the tech path is a tough choice. IMO our biggest challenges now are the low commerce and low happy cap.

The Pyramids would solve them both - with Rep we could REX at our leisure employing 2 sci in each city with slider at zero and still have a decent tech rate. GLH would help with economy but not directly with the happy caps. Do we have an estimate of when can we get GLH in Orleans?

IIRC the fastest we could get a GP, if we hire just 1 eng spec (before we get a lib in Paris), is in 17 turns. According to Ozbenno, it is the same time we'll take to learn Sailing+Masonry. That would be 550BC. I think it is a reasonable date on Emperor, but Ramesses got a reasonably early SH, maybe he has stone and Mids will be gone earlier?

I believe our GP odds would be 54%GE 46%GP before popping it. But even if we get lucky and get the GE we would still need the masonry tech. Trouble with going Alpha is that if it really takes 34t (hadn't noticed/checked yet) we won't have masonry by then. So if we go Alpha, we basically say goodbye to Mids.

Bottomline, IMO it seems that sailing/masonry has higher risks (not only dependant on GPP luck, but we might still get beat to one or both WW's) and higher returns, while Alpha is a safer route. What do we want?

I can be convinced either way - I think we can adopt Sleepless' suggestion and turn off science for a while. But disagreeing with my own earlier posts, I'd put that 1 free bpt on sailing. If our exploring chariot manages to uncover an eastern coastal trade route to our southern neighbors, it will be even better. BTW, as Ramesses sometimes hates his other neighbor even more (and Ramesses has no religion yet), I suspect he's a warmonger like Alex, Genghis, Ragnar or Monty.

@Griff: I like your city plan, but 5A will be completely useless until IW. City 6 still has corn, grass hills and forests which makes it a decent city even before clearing jungle.
Maybe we settle 6 (better blocking) and 7A next?

On Sleepless' PPP:
Paris: agree settler is better than worker now. However I'd build it for a few turns and then whip the settler with high overflow into Lib. That way we allow the city to regrow - not possible the other way around. Definitely do not fire the engineer.

Orleans: will be happy next turn, and stay happy until pop5 in 4t. I'd rather not 1pop-whip. Instead let granary finish (maybe work a 3h tile next turn), then 2-pop Lib after that at size5.

Lyons: agree with 2pop whip, but next turn (not this turn) or we risk not learning Writing as you already noticed.

Rheims: net fish (I should have already done that before uploading for better understanding), but I'd finish granary (whip it ASAP) before lib.

Agree with Ron's suggestion on forges as placeholders while growing.

If we agree on a PPP before Sleepless is able to play, I can resume the game where we left it for a few more turns. I stopped mainly because I was too eager to capture that worker, so you could stop me from ruining our game. :lol: I was also hoping someone would have suggested HBR as a possible next tech :ar15:, but since noone mentioned it.... :mischief:
 
snip....

If we agree on a PPP before Sleepless is able to play, I can resume the game where we left it for a few more turns. I stopped mainly because I was too eager to capture that worker, so you could stop me from ruining our game. :lol: I was also hoping someone would have suggested HBR as a possible next tech :ar15:, but since noone mentioned it.... :mischief:

Hadn't really considered HBR, but it is a very powerful tech at this stage. With at least 2 more Civs accessible, even completely killing Brennus is not terrible.

My concern/hope is that Brennus will clear some of the jungle for us. If we send him into war mode, that definitely won't happen. If we stay status quo, it may or may not happen, sometimes AI don't seem to bother cutting it.
 
Also, mad citizens don't eat while building settlers/workers. So we are better growing into mad and then whipping settlers/workers and overflowing into structures, not whipping structures as C63 pointed out.

Whipping settlers/workers essentially converts excess food into hammers, it does not work that way whipping the structures themselves.
 
Also, if C63 wants Sailing > Masonry, I will vote that way. I am hoping to learn something about tech path this game, so I am basically going to defer to his judgement since he has so many awards in xOTM competition.

Also, on city settling order, city 5 is tough until we get IW. City 6 makes more sense now.

Another very important point! Paris has a Forge now, making its whips worth 37 hammers. So 2 pop whipping a settler for max overflow happens at 62/100 hammers. Should be 5 turns from now to whip. Current whip anger wears off on 4 turns, so the timing is very good IMO.

Granary in Orleans, ideally we need to adjust tile use so that the food bar is 1/12 full when the Granary completes. This should be the goal in all cities in a perfect world as that creates maximum value in the build. Rheims should be the same, once we can grow it with the clams, we should either grow fast and whip it, or alternate tiles so the bar is 1/2 full when it completes. I think alternating will be faster because of the mine. Orleans is a bit unique, because whipping brings us off our best tiles in that city, but with no cap space, we don't really have an option.

Also, here is another dot mapping effort.
 
If C63 is able to play a few more turns that would fit in well with me as I will be able to play at the weekend.

@C63 I did notice you mentioned Brennus's worker.. :lol: With our woeful military and the need to find other people don't think its such a good idea at this time. Did think about HA's as well but I think there is a reason there is a bit of a distance/jugle between us and Brennus.
 
I could play a few turns now, but do we have enough support for the suggestions I made about Sleepless's PPP a few posts above?
 
Also, any love for Colossus in Orleans? We can build it now and it will add some commerce and GP points.
I wouldn't have a problem with that, but I do think that if we go for Colossus in Orleans we should try and build GLH there as well. Those two World Wonders have a nice synergy, and would get us a few Great Merchants to boot, which could be settled or sent on Trade Missions.
 
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