SGOTM 16 - U'nu'sual S'us'pec'ts

[neilmeister]

Yeah, but the rate the AI is currently at, I think it's perfectly possible for us to get Econ and lib Radio.

There's nothing wrong with having a contingency if things don't go to plan!

Edit: Your plan seems to have missed out Chemistry.

Yes, I want to plan everything out, not just most likely, but the what-ifs

Umm, no, its right at the top, just after Gunpowder.

 

[SteelHorse]

So at 50% research:
We will reach Gunpowder in 5 turns.
Let's say we trade for Phil here. Get our GS (hopefully).
Start researching Lib until 1 turns: 5 turns.
Trade for Guilds.
Research SM for 5 turns.
Bulb SM.
Start researching Physics. Get another GS hopefully.
Research Physics for 11 turns.
Trade for Banking in between if possible and switch to Economics.
Finish Economics if applicable (6 turns)
Bulb Physics with GS.
Get free GS and another GS from GP farm hopefully.
If AI has Edu and Phil, trade for Chem, bulb bio and Lib Electricity.
If not, research Electricity for 9 turns.
Double Bulb Electricity.
Lib Radio.



The idea is that if we need something to fall back on, we can just use Lib to get Electricity and bulb biology at the same time whilst getting us our merchant.

The AI do have priorities of techs and luckily for us, the Chemistry line is a very high priority! So it's very well feasible that we will be able to do our trades. By the way, for Sushi, we do need Corporations as well which requires constitution. I think you may have not taken that into account in your plan.

With Qin going for Guilds this mean we can go further before needing to switch to Lib. If we can get him to trade Philo and/or Guilds this is a big win. It will be expensive though. Likley need to give Eng and GP.

So which line should we go to max Lib benefits and there are 2 questions to ask.
1. Which nets the most hammers.
2. Which yield the most immediate benefits.

Potential Lines:
1. Electricity/Radio as proposed by revent
2. Med as proposed by neil
3. Other Constitution?

Leaving out Econ and Lib, the most beneficial tech coming up are Bio for extra farm food, Corp/Med for Sids, Nat for Herm&Taj, Corp +1TR.

The highest beakers are Elec(7K) or Radio(9K), Bio(5.5K) or Med(7K).

I like the Med/Corp route as it brings the wonders into play and gets Sid which is a major boost to both cult and growth.

 

[Revent]

Oops, my bad! I was thinking it'd come near the end of the plan.
Still wary of researching all these techs that AI prioritise since we will get those by trades anyway. Also, we can get chem if ANY AI has it (providing they like us enough). We're nowhere near WFYABTA and Chemistry doesn't actually get us the We don't want to start trading.... message which is also why I'm VERY wary of self researching it because all it takes is one AI to have it for us to trade for it.

 

[Revent]

Great point SH
I'd be willing to compromise on researching Bio and then using Lib to get Medicine. That seems a lot better to me, but once again, I don't think we should be researching Chem and it's preqs

 

[neilmeister]

duplicated below

 

[neilmeister]

Good points SH, truth is I want both Biology & Economics asap.

We should definitely do Chem after Gunpowder.
- It gives the AI some more time to be willing to trade Philo & Guilds.
- It opens up Biology as a backup Lib target, almost immediately. No risk to get Bio from Lib

 

[neilmeister]

Oops, my bad! I was thinking it'd come near the end of the plan.
Still wary of researching all these techs that AI prioritise since we will get those by trades anyway. Also, we can get chem if ANY AI has it (providing they like us enough). We're nowhere near WFYABTA and Chemistry doesn't actually get us the We don't want to start trading.... message which is also why I'm VERY wary of self researching it because all it takes is one AI to have it for us to trade for it.

Are you sure about this. Chemistry unlocks 2 units, so I'm not sure they will trade it instantly.

 

[neilmeister]

At 50% sustainable tech rate, current cash in bank ignored (as in Revents plan)

Great people in: 5t, ~19t, ~35t. About 60-70% chance of GS on each.

Focussing on what really matters, the Lib target.


Biology first plan
Assuming we get NO GS in the first 2
Turns from now
5 - Gunpowder
14 - Chemistry
24 - SM
24 - Trade for Philo (we need it by now)
30 - Lib Biology

Assuming we get 1 GS in the first 2
Turns from now
5 - Gunpowder
14 - Chemistry
19 - SM (assumes we use 1 GS to part bulb it - we have 2 chances to get a GS)
19 - Trade for Philo (we need it by now)
25 - Lib Biology


Radio Plan
Assuming we get NO GS in the first 2
5 - Gunpowder
15 - SM
15 - trade for Philo (need it by now)
20 - 1 turn from finishing Lib. What now, as trying to Lib Electricity is no longer realistic IMO
39 - Physics (4 turns at 100% due to saved cash from before, rest at 50%)
47 - Electricity (double bulbed- 1 from 3rd GP, other from Physics)
48 - Lib Radio

Assuming we get 1 GS in the first 2
5 - Gunpowder
10 - SM (still needs to be bulbed)
10 - trade for Philo (need it by now)
15 - 1 turn from finishing Lib
?? Next GP is still 4 turns away, so just research Guilds/SM saving cash at 0% for 4 turns
19 - SM (bulbed)
34 - Physics (4 turns at 100% due to saved cash from before, rest at 50%)
41 - Electricity (double bulbed)
42 - Lib Radio

Assuming we get 2 GS in the first 3 (GS, GS, ??) or (GS, ??, GS)
5 - Gunpowder
10 - SM (bulbed)
23 - Physics (part bulbed)
23 - trade for Philo (need it by now)
28 - 1 turn from finishing Lib
41 - Electricity (part bulbed)
42 - Lib Radio

Assuming we get 3 GS in the first 3
5 - Gunpowder
10 - SM (bulbed)
23 - Physics (part bulbed)
23 - trade for Philo (need it by now)
28 - 1 turn from finishing Lib
35 - Electricity (double bulbed)
36 - Lib Radio

Edit:
Researching Gunpowder & Chemistry allows the AI some time to trade us Guilds, and maybe even Banking.

 

[Revent]

My plan incorporates all of that! Assume we get 3 GS, trade for Phil, Guilds, Banking and Chemistry:
5- Gunpowder
10-SM (5 research and rest bulb)
21-Physics (11 research and rest bulb)
26-1 turn until Lib
32-Economics (can be swapped with above)
41-Electricity (double bulb)
42-Lib Radio

2GS delays us by 5 turns. 1GS is far too unlikely imo. If we get 1 GS only, then contingency comes into play.

As for Chemistry, I am very sure that is the case. I remember reading on here that there are certain techs the AI are always willing to trade such as Alpha, Chem and I forgot a few others.

 

[kcd_swede]

Alright. I will prepare a PPP tomorrow. I'm watching Stanford with the family at the moment (and trying to figure out how to play my offline, now online, game).

Thank you very much, Stanford. (And to those guys at Baylor... I put them on my christmas list).

BTW: Notre Dame hasn't been 11-0 since I was a student.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I've never played around with Sushi much so I don't actually know how much surplus food it gives us or how powerful it is! If it is the case that we can get 10 scientists, a university in every city should be the case, no?

Yes, it is the case. Universities should likely go in any city with decent hammers. They might not be as high priority as other buildings, but they will almost always pay off with Sushi.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

It's not clear to me why the Biology first plan is Gunpowder -> Chemistry -> Scientific Method, while the Radio first plan is Gunpowder -> Scientific Method -> Chemistry. If both plans could be Gunpowder -> Scientific Method -> Chemistry, couldn't we delay the Liberalism target decision a while?

 

[neilmeister]

It's not clear to me why the Biology first plan is Gunpowder -> Chemistry -> Scientific Method, while the Radio first plan is Gunpowder -> Scientific Method -> Chemistry. If both plans could be Gunpowder -> Scientific Method -> Chemistry, couldn't we delay the Liberalism target decision a while?

Radio plan skips Chemistry completely.

The main reason is that Biology comes before Electricity in the GS bulb order, and Chem unlocks Biology. Revent's plan relies on part bulbing Electricity with 1 or 2 GS.

Also, Revent believes the AI not only prioritise Chemistry, but will trade it away straight away. Not sure if this is true, or just wishful thinking to justify his plan.

 

[Benginal]

Pre-Play Plan Turns 165, 166, and 167 Part 1

Consider this an official "got it".

Technologies

Neil and Revent have been doing a bang up job considering different tech path options. There are two schools of thought at the moment: heading in the direction where we can bulb Biology / Medicine from Liberalism or heading in the direction to bulb Radio from Liberalism. Both plans have us researching Gunpowder next. With Universities still a while away in most of our cities I propose this for the next three turns of my turnset:

Gunpowder at 80% slider, 523 bpt and -156 gpt, to finish Gunpowder in almost exactly three turns.

We can then see what the AI look like they might research next, and see how our relationship with Qin has evolved.

Cities

Paris
165 (3): Corn, Gold, Fish, 4 Villages, 1 riverside plains cottage, 1 grassland hill mine
166 (2): Same
167 (1): Same

I gave the riverside grassland village to Commerce so it can grow in 1 turn. Working the mine, as opposed to the plains farm, lets us finish the University in 3 turns (for an extra turn of 22.75 beakers)

165: Unversity (3)
166: University (2)
167: University (1)

GP Farm

165 (5): Fish, Pigs, Deer, 3 Scientists, 1 Engineer, 1 Priest
166 (4): Same
167 (3): Same

We were working a coastal tile, but switched to a priest to decrease the chances of an artist. Is there a reason we were working the coast I missed? I think if not Priest, then grassland hill mine).


165: Unversity (29)
166: University (28)
167: University (27)

Production

165 (4): Fish, Deer, Sheep, Horses, 3 mines, riverside plains cottage
166 (3): Same
167 (2): Same

165: Unversity (9)
166: University (8)
167: University (7)

Commerce

165 (1): All possible flood plains and grassland cottages
166 (3): All possible flood plains and grassland cottages, riverside plains hill mine
167 (2): Same

165: University (132)
166: University (19)
167: University (18)

Clams

165 (1): Pigs, Clams, Gems, 2 grassland villages, 1 plains cottage in Paris BFC
166 (3): Same + Grassland Cottage
167 (2): Same

165: University (41)
166: University (40)
167: University (39)

West Fish

165 (3): Fish, 3 Floodplain Villages, grassland hamlet, 2 mines
166 (2): Same
167 (1): Same

Thoughts here: We're working several plains hill mines. It's always been by habit to, when in slavery, whip these instead of working them, at least until we get Railroad. Are we going to work them? They're not terrible tiles, and I'm not sure always whipping them is best. Also possible is to run an engineer instead of the plains hill mine. That might be better? The University is going to add 9.25 commerce. So we might want to get that as quickly as possible though.

First whip in a Confucian Monastery
165: University (13)
166: University (12)
167: University (11)

Barb City

165 (2): Pigs, Wine, 3 farms, oasis, PH mine, plains forest (This city ran a spy last turn turn, )
166 (1): Same
167 (3): Same + Engineer

The plains forest gets us growth in 2 turns instead of 1. We're building a watermill here? Is that for later. I thought we decided against watermills.

165: University (11)
166: University (10)
167: University (8)

Zhou

165 (1): Fish, Sheep, Horses, Buncha Coast
166 (4): Fish, Sheep, Horses, PH mine, Buncha -1 Coast
167 (3): Same

I'm working an extra coast instead of the PH mine for one turn, so we grow right away. Also, I know I was against cottages here, but depending on our end game civics we might want to lay them down? Are we going to need production cities. Moai is just such a lame wonder. It makes the coast about as good as plains farms. And with four grassland tiles that are all Towned up, if we're running free speech and democracy they will be great. Thoughts?

165: University (5)
166: University (3)
167: University (2)

Fake Humbaba

165 (2): Clams, Cottage, Coast
166 (1): Same
167 (6): Clams, Cottage, 2 Coast

165: Library (5)
166: Library (4)
167: Library (3)

It's possible I run the iro after growth if it will finish the Library (+5 bpt) a turn faster. Running coast instead of the cottage, doesn't growth down to 1 turn, so not worth it in my opinion.

West Coast Silk

165 (1): Clams, Iron, Sugar, Cottage, Grassland Mine
166 (3): Clams, Iron, Sugar, Cottage, 2 Grassland Mines
167 (2): Same

I'd prefer to work another grassland cottage, so will get workers over though ASAP to build one.

165: Chariot (2)
166: Chariot (1)
167: Library (4)

I assume the Chariot is for Garrison duty?

Wheat

165 (4): Wheat, Iron, Cottage, Grassland Mine
166 (3): Same
167 (2): Same

I switched to the iron mine, which just finished. And the grassland mine instead of the plains mine to grow in 4 instead of 6 turns. We should switch to the farm on turn 168.

165: Courthouse (7)
166: Courthouse (6)
167: Courthouse (5)

Red Fish Blue F

165 (1): 2 Fish, 1 Coast
166 (2): 2 Fish, 2 Coast
167 (1): 2 Fish, 2 Coast

165: Courthouse (WHIP)
166: Harbor (80)
167: Harbor (79)

I assume we're gonna whip here as long as we can!

Bibracte

165: REVOLT TO FANCOPHILISTIC GLORY!!!!!

Not quite sure what we're gonna have here after the revolt. I'll post some screenshots while I play. I doubt we'll be able to whip in the forge right away, and I also doubt we'll have the pigs. If we do, we should be okay. In the likely case that we wont, we'll have to whip in something before the pop starves. Maybe 3 pop whip the Library or Buddhist Temple?

Sugary Gems (formerly Verlamion)

I'm surprised this isn't the name of a cereal yet.

165 (5): Sugar, Gems, Farm
166 (4): Same
167 (3): Same

We should get workers over there to farm the last sugar as soon as possible so that Vermalion can work it as soon after its borders pop in 3 turns as possible. We could also afford to get another farm in the jungle there and a mine on the riverside grassland hill. I'm going to put in signposts for all the improvements we need.

165: Forge (19)
166: Forge (18)
167: Forge (17)

Ski Resort (formerly Tolosa)

Because of all the mountains, ya know?

Revolt for another 6 turns.

?????(formerly Camulodunum)

Camera DumDum: Because that name is too confusing and it kind of sounds like Camera.

or

The Midwest: Because all it's got going for it is corn. Too bad there's no soybean resource.

Revolt for another 4 turns

Bagacum

We'll capture this city later. The little kid in me just wanted to write down the name. Also, we're not changing its name. That would be disrespectful, . Actually, we might raze that city. Want a junker.

 

[neilmeister]

Sorry about the watermill. They will get better soon, but not that soon to justify building it.

Bagacum, I had the same reaction and giggled like a school girl. Unless it has a courthouse, raze it. If it has a courthouse, then it will get Sushi at some stage.

Forge is a 3 pop whip with no hammers invested, it costs 60h (because we are IND)

 

[neilmeister]

How about Camel Town for Camulodunum.

 

[Benginal]

1. No worries. You know I like Watermills.

2. Alright, the Courthouse rule of thumb sounds good.

3. GOTCHA. Perfect

4. Camel Town sounds good.

5. Also, I was wrong about Tolosa. Tolosa will start on a forge.

 

[Benginal]

Pre-Play Plan Turns 165, 166, and 167 Part 2

Dealing With AIs

Brennus
Kill him. He's got 7 cities, and we can only see 6. So it looks like he might have an island city somewhere. We are not going to cap him. So we should figure out where it is and get the galleons heading that way. It could be the copper island. It's also possible it's the Barb city in the southwest or just a city we haven't found yet.

Ramesses
Kill him later. In the meantime, we'll sell him pigs for 4 gpt. He's also got 50 gold. Sell him our map right now for 20 gold. Once an interncontinental AI gets 70 gold trade our map to them for it. Then trade our new map to Ramesses again. Giving him paper at some point might be safe? He might even build Sankore for us.

Hammurabi
Sugar for 4 gpt. We're trying to stay mostly on his good side. Although he's got a city with a bunch of wonders somewhere we might want to go take. Also, it looks like everybody has 40/50 gold to trade. These numbers may go up, but we should think about how to get it. The other continent doesn't have Paper or Theocracy. Sitting Bull still doesn't have Civil Service.

Qin
Staying on the good side. I'll re-work the deer for gold trade to get some more from him. At some point, we should re-work this since we're currently giving him. Deer for 4 gpt and Gems for 1 gpt. We could be doing this in one trade, but we can't cancel gems. Does anybody know when this trade was made? 5 turns ago. We won't renegotiate any trades for five turns.

Saladin
Re-work the trade to get the extra 1 gpt he now has. Generally screw him, though, and all of his demands.

Sitting Bull
Kind of a jerk. We'll let him be for now, although he may very well be next. Cahokia has The Pyramids, The Hanging Gardes, and the Mausoleum.

Important Question/Reminder

Once we get Scientific Method, monasteries change. Are we still able to build missionaries and spread the religions so that we have at least 9 cities with all of our religions? It's not too early to start building some missionaries and temples.

Workers

See Edits HERE

Worker 4
165: Move 1SW
166: Move 1W and help worker 11 farm in Wheat (1)
167: Farm in Wheat (1)

I think the Wheat farm, and two farms should be enough. Especially as we're getting Bio soon (right Revent? ). The rest of the grassland will be cottaged. We should be able to keep the improvements up with the growth.

Worker 6
165: Workshop/Chop in Production (3)
166: Workshop/Chop in Production (2)
167: Workshop/Chop in Production (1)

Do we want the chop going into the University. That seems fine with me. Somebody verify that's where we want it to go.

Worker 7
165: Watermill in Barb City (2)
166: Watermill in Barb City (1)
167: Head to Wheat

Worker 8
165: Cottage in Paris (3)
166: Cottage in Paris (2)
167: Cottage in Paris (1)

Worker 11
165: Farm in Wheat (4)
166: Move to Sugar Gems
167: Move to Sugar Gems

Worker 3
165: 1NW and farm in wheat with other two workers (1)
166: Move 1S and farm there (3)
167: Farm in Wheat.

Worker 1,2
165: Move 2N2W and start a cottage in West Coast Silk (2)
166: Cottage in WCS (1)
167: 2S1W in preperation for a Plantation on the Sugar

Worker 9
165: 1S and start on Mine for Sugar Gems (1)
166: Mine (3)
167: Mine (2)

Workers 5 and 10
165: Head westwardly
166: Same
167: Same

I think that's the worker micro straightened out. I'll check this again before I play. Basically we need help in Wheat and Sugar Gems. Then we will need some touch-ups in former Celtia. We've got two workers up north at the moment, which is enough for now I think.

War Plans coming up. Actually, I need a break. War plans will be up in ~4 hours.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

GP Farm

165 (5): Fish, Pigs, Deer, 3 Scientists, 1 Engineer, 1 Priest
166 (4): Same
167 (3): Same

We were working a coastal tile, but switched to a priest to decrease the chances of an artist. Is there a reason we were working the coast I missed? I think if not Priest, then grassland hill mine).

Definitely priest, this city should always be maxing out specialists.

West Fish

Thoughts here: We're working several plains hill mines. It's always been by habit to, when in slavery, whip these instead of working them, at least until we get Railroad. Are we going to work them? They're not terrible tiles, and I'm not sure always whipping them is best. Also possible is to run an engineer instead of the plains hill mine. That might be better? The University is going to add 9.25 commerce. So we might want to get that as quickly as possible though.

Whatever gets the most hammers is better. Whip the plains hill mines into the university.

Zhou

165 (1): Fish, Sheep, Horses, Buncha Coast
166 (4): Fish, Sheep, Horses, PH mine, Buncha -1 Coast
167 (3): Same

I'm working an extra coast instead of the PH mine for one turn, so we grow right away. Also, I know I was against cottages here, but depending on our end game civics we might want to lay them down? Are we going to need production cities. Moai is just such a lame wonder. It makes the coast about as good as plains farms. And with four grassland tiles that are all Towned up, if we're running free speech and democracy they will be great. Thoughts?

Didn't we just turn all of those into workshops???

West Coast Silk

I assume the Chariot is for Garrison duty?

Yes

Bibracte

Not quite sure what we're gonna have here after the revolt. I'll post some screenshots while I play. I doubt we'll be able to whip in the forge right away, and I also doubt we'll have the pigs. If we do, we should be okay. In the likely case that we wont, we'll have to whip in something before the pop starves. Maybe 3 pop whip the Library or Buddhist Temple?

I prefer 3 pop whipping the forge.

Sugary Gems (formerly Verlamion)

We should get workers over there to farm the last sugar as soon as possible so that Vermalion can work it as soon after its borders pop in 3 turns as possible. We could also afford to get another farm in the jungle there and a mine on the riverside grassland hill. I'm going to put in signposts for all the improvements we need.

Shouldn't that be a plantation on the sugar?

?????(formerly Camulodunum)

Camera DumDum: Because that name is too confusing and it kind of sounds like Camera.

Camel-something

I'm not sure I'd keep Bagacum even if it had a courthouse.

 

[neilmeister]

Qin
Staying on the good side. I'll re-work the deer for gold trade to get some more from him. At some point, we should re-work this since we're currently giving him. Deer for 4 gpt and Gems for 1 gpt. We could be doing this in one trade, but we can't cancel gems. Does anybody know when this trade was made?

I made this trade in my last turnset, I think it was 6 turns ago. You can check in the 'Active' part of the Diplo screens to see when you can cancel it. It was mainly to speed the arrival of the 'shared resources' diplo bonus.

We can sell our map to everyone for a pile of gold. If we are careful about the order of doing it, we may be able to sell it again. For instance, Ramesses will give us all of his gold for a map after we get the map from 1 AI from the other hemisphere.

Sitting Bull
Kind of a jerk. We'll let him be for now, although he may very well be next. Cahokia has The Pyramids, The Hanging Gardes, and the Mausoleum.

... and 2 religions we don't have.

Important Question/Reminder

Once we get Scientific Method, monasteries change. Are we still able to build missionaries and spread the religions so that we have at least 9 cities with all of our religions? It's not too early to start building some missionaries and temples.

As long as we are in OR, we can build missionaries. Agreed that we can pop a few out. Remember we only need 6 of each religion.