Big credit goes to neil and his tech and civic plans
Thanks, but it was definitely a team effort.
SGOTM 16 - U'nu'sual S'us'pec'ts
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Thanks, but it was definitely a team effort.
We quite a few ways to go from here, we need to decide on some Macro:
Forbidden Palace location (thanks SH)
I think the leading contenders are probably:
- Heliopolis
- Pi-Ramesses
- Thebes
I don't know which one I favour, are there any other contenders I missed?
Tech Path
- Replaceable Parts -> Steam Power -> Assembly Line is very compelling, for the levee's & factories
After that, we could go quite a few different ways
- Physics -> Electricity -> Radio (for CR, great to switch to Slavery for a turn to whip infra)
- Physics -> Electricity -> Refrigeration -> Superconductors
- Communism for Great Spy & maybe Kremlin
- Steel -> Railroad -> Combustion
Ideally, we want the AI to do some of this. My personal preference, and the one I think most likely, is the AI will do Steel -> Railroad, as long as we trade them Steam Power for RR.
Sushi, the order we do this will make a difference
Obviously we need to spread this around asap, and make the most of it. We need:
- Bibracte to build 1 executive, just 1.
- Bibracte can then build a levee, then Wall St.
- 1st executive needs to go somewhere with hammers, and not much else to build, Production is a leading candidate.
- After that, we need to maintain as many hammer cities building execs as we can. Levee's will make a huge difference to some cities, like Commerce, Barb City, Heliopolis & Thebes. The first wave of execs should go to these cities.
- we need to cancel our current seafood exports trades, and keep an eye out for imports.
- we need to settle about 5 new marginal cities, starting with 2 fish/crabs in the south
Forbidden Palace location (thanks SH)
I think the leading contenders are probably:
- Heliopolis
- Pi-Ramesses
- Thebes
I don't know which one I favour, are there any other contenders I missed?
Tech Path
- Replaceable Parts -> Steam Power -> Assembly Line is very compelling, for the levee's & factories
After that, we could go quite a few different ways
- Physics -> Electricity -> Radio (for CR, great to switch to Slavery for a turn to whip infra)
- Physics -> Electricity -> Refrigeration -> Superconductors
- Communism for Great Spy & maybe Kremlin
- Steel -> Railroad -> Combustion
Ideally, we want the AI to do some of this. My personal preference, and the one I think most likely, is the AI will do Steel -> Railroad, as long as we trade them Steam Power for RR.
Sushi, the order we do this will make a difference
Obviously we need to spread this around asap, and make the most of it. We need:
- Bibracte to build 1 executive, just 1.
- Bibracte can then build a levee, then Wall St.
- 1st executive needs to go somewhere with hammers, and not much else to build, Production is a leading candidate.
- After that, we need to maintain as many hammer cities building execs as we can. Levee's will make a huge difference to some cities, like Commerce, Barb City, Heliopolis & Thebes. The first wave of execs should go to these cities.
- we need to cancel our current seafood exports trades, and keep an eye out for imports.
- we need to settle about 5 new marginal cities, starting with 2 fish/crabs in the south
Legendary Cities
Paris is a given. But where is number #2 (and maybe even #3) going to go?
Contenders:
GP Farm - has several wonders, and several thousand culture already. Has hammers to build multipliers, especially once sushi arrives. Running artist specialists could generate enough artists to bomb a third city and give us a potential culture victory.
Commerce - will have great hammers once levee is built, but this is our science city, so we don't really want to be running artists, we want scientists. If we need slider at the end, this city has the most raw commerce to turn into culture
Bibracte - has no culture now, but will have amazing hammers once levee is built. Will also have a reasonable number of towns by the end for potential slider. But we will want to running Merchant specialists here, mainly because of Wall St
Production - has good hammers now, but will not benefit hugely from levee. Only 1 town.
Heliopolis & Thebes - these cities are very similiar, both with great levee potential and without baggage meaning we can run whatever specialists we want.
On first glance, I think I am leaning towards GP Farm, after my earlier dalliance with Commerce. The other main contenders IMO are Heliopolis & Thebes.
Paris is a given. But where is number #2 (and maybe even #3) going to go?
Contenders:
GP Farm - has several wonders, and several thousand culture already. Has hammers to build multipliers, especially once sushi arrives. Running artist specialists could generate enough artists to bomb a third city and give us a potential culture victory.
Commerce - will have great hammers once levee is built, but this is our science city, so we don't really want to be running artists, we want scientists. If we need slider at the end, this city has the most raw commerce to turn into culture
Bibracte - has no culture now, but will have amazing hammers once levee is built. Will also have a reasonable number of towns by the end for potential slider. But we will want to running Merchant specialists here, mainly because of Wall St
Production - has good hammers now, but will not benefit hugely from levee. Only 1 town.
Heliopolis & Thebes - these cities are very similiar, both with great levee potential and without baggage meaning we can run whatever specialists we want.
On first glance, I think I am leaning towards GP Farm, after my earlier dalliance with Commerce. The other main contenders IMO are Heliopolis & Thebes.
SteelHorse
Deity
Qin is going RP! He is at +15, but 5 is for civics. We can go to 0 for a turn or two and see where Hammy goes next. RP though is cheaper and perhaps more appealing than Steel for the AI. But regardless I think the Physics for the GS should be next.
Question on the Forbidden Palace, are the benefits additive to Palace? So if we put up north those cities would get a double bonus? That said it looks like there is are going to be big cities in the south that would benefit more.
Need to think about 2 more corps as well. Does not appear that SB is going to build too many for us to capture, unless we gift him to corp and hold back from others.
Question on the Forbidden Palace, are the benefits additive to Palace? So if we put up north those cities would get a double bonus? That said it looks like there is are going to be big cities in the south that would benefit more.
Need to think about 2 more corps as well. Does not appear that SB is going to build too many for us to capture, unless we gift him to corp and hold back from others.
SteelHorse
Deity
Good city analysis on the culture sites. Will take a hard look at tomorrow.
Yeah, I did see Qin was going for RP, but he is 5 turns away.
We will finish RP with 1 turn at 30% research (570 beakers), Steam Power is another ~5 turns after that.
Levee's are so good that I think finishing RP immediately is the best thing to do. It is only 570 beakers we would be wasting.
Forbidden Palace isn't cumulative, distance maintenance is calculated as the distance from 'a seat of government'. Palace, FP & Versailles all count as seats of government. So we want to put it somewhere central to the other side of the continent. Pi-Ramesses is probably the leading candidate IMO.
We will finish RP with 1 turn at 30% research (570 beakers), Steam Power is another ~5 turns after that.
Levee's are so good that I think finishing RP immediately is the best thing to do. It is only 570 beakers we would be wasting.
Forbidden Palace isn't cumulative, distance maintenance is calculated as the distance from 'a seat of government'. Palace, FP & Versailles all count as seats of government. So we want to put it somewhere central to the other side of the continent. Pi-Ramesses is probably the leading candidate IMO.
Trystero
Deity
I like GP Farm as well. With Sushi and CS, it could run a a lot of artists, and it already has a head start on the culture, and the NE is here.
I agree that Commerce is our Science city and Bibracte our gold city.
I need to think about the tech, but I am currently favoring going to Radio to get CR. Being able to micro civics switches in the late game would be highly beneficial. (Edit: after Replaceable Parts -> Steam Power -> Assembly Line. Bibracte has 10 riverside tiles and will be great with levees.)
Trystero
Deity
Agreed. I like Pi-Ramesses, since it has hammer tiles it can work soon and it is more eastern than Helio or Thebes, so would better help with maintenance in former Celtic territories.
Yes, CR is very, very nice to have when you have sushi, as you kind of want to be in both Slavery & Caste.
I would like having a factory to build it though, preferably in combination with a great levee spot, as it is 1000 hammers.
What are your thoughts on RP->SP->AL vs Physics as 1st priority?
I would like having a factory to build it though, preferably in combination with a great levee spot, as it is 1000 hammers.
What are your thoughts on RP->SP->AL vs Physics as 1st priority?
Trystero
Deity
No one has else has SM yet or is researching it. Physics would give us a GS, airships (not really needed right now) and uranium. Also we are going to get another GP next turn who as a 48% chance of being a GS. If he is a GS, we could use him to help bulb Physics when we need it. I would go towards AL for levees and factories, and then toward Radio.
Corporations
Cereal Mills - GM - competes with Sushi - easy - provides about the same food output as sushi, but without the culture. Conclusion: NO
Std Ethanol - GS - competes with Sushi - easy - would be very nice, but the killer is that is competes with sushi Conclusion: NO
Creative Constructions - GE - competes with Mining Inc - hard - would help our Lengendary cities out a great deal Conclusion: Unlikely - as we will use 1st GE for Mining Inc
Mining Inc - GE - competes with Creative Constructions - hard - would help all our cities a lot Conclusion: Would be really great
Alum Co - GS - competes with Mining Inc - easy - we don't want it for ourselves, we aren't doing Space, but this could be a great money spinner if spread to other hemisphere Conclusion: Not for us, but for spreading
Civ Jewellers - GA - competes with Mining Inc - medium - would help our Lengendary cities out a great deal Conclusion:Maybe NO, as this requires Mass Media, and we are not researching that
So, unless we can get a GE for Mining Inc, I would be tempted to found Alum Co &Civ Jewellers in Bibracte.
Civ Jewellers will be cash positive, in that it will generate more cash than it will cost in maintenance.
Alum Co could be spread to the other continent.
Cereal Mills - GM - competes with Sushi - easy - provides about the same food output as sushi, but without the culture. Conclusion: NO
Std Ethanol - GS - competes with Sushi - easy - would be very nice, but the killer is that is competes with sushi Conclusion: NO
Creative Constructions - GE - competes with Mining Inc - hard - would help our Lengendary cities out a great deal Conclusion: Unlikely - as we will use 1st GE for Mining Inc
Mining Inc - GE - competes with Creative Constructions - hard - would help all our cities a lot Conclusion: Would be really great
Alum Co - GS - competes with Mining Inc - easy - we don't want it for ourselves, we aren't doing Space, but this could be a great money spinner if spread to other hemisphere Conclusion: Not for us, but for spreading
Civ Jewellers - GA - competes with Mining Inc - medium - would help our Lengendary cities out a great deal Conclusion:
So, unless we can get a GE for Mining Inc, I would be tempted to found Alum Co &
Alum Co could be spread to the other continent.
Trystero
Deity
Aw, crud. When I was looking at the save game I accidentally moved the garrison warrior out of Paris (toward Commerce). 
I've uploaded that save. No harm done, but please remember to move the warrior back next turn. My apologies 
I've uploaded that save. No harm done, but please remember to move the warrior back next turn. My apologies
Agreed.
Also, our tech lead is so large, we really need to start giving it away.
Aw, crud. When I was looking at the save game I accidentally moved the garrison warrior out of Paris (toward Commerce).
Gotta be careful 
Deckhand, did you want to go next?
You are due a turnset or 2.
You are due a turnset or 2.
Trystero
Deity
SH, did you want to keep playing for a bit?
I was just looking at the roster and noticed you are still a bit short on turns played. Could time well with Deckhand getting back up to speed and then Chris being settled in his new digs.
edit: I should probably leave these discussions for our team leader. Sorry Trys.
I was just looking at the roster and noticed you are still a bit short on turns played. Could time well with Deckhand getting back up to speed and then Chris being settled in his new digs.
edit: I should probably leave these discussions for our team leader. Sorry Trys.
Trystero
Deity
No problem. Yes, if SH is up to it, I think he should play a few more turns. This would let him finish off Egypt (and maybe the Celts), and give Deckhand a chance to catch up. As you said, this would time well with Chris' availability.
Just wanted to pop in and say WOW! We are doing amazing!! 
May I take the opportunity to point out democracy so that we can build the SoL? Not sure how much it will help though. 4400 beakers and 1500 hammers (actually much less because of Ind, Copper and other buildings). That basically means a free pop in every city. Every city running a Eng spec would mean +2 hammers and 32 (so far) cities means 64 hammers per turn. Not a big benefit really and would take around 90 turns for SoL to pay off purely on the hammer basis assuming a 1:1 ratio of conversion for hammers to beakers. (I haven't taken multipliers into account since they effect everything).
How do we plan to deal with Emanc unhappiness? Could we perhaps whenever it comes to it, use the Esp slider to revolt AI back to whatever civic we are running?
It will have to happen once every 25 turns or so or my solution is we could vassal two AI (killing one off completely) to get a super vassal, get close to the dom limit and then this super vassal will actually be good enough to research techs for us and we won't be relying on a gamble.
We should make sure that one city is behind in culture because if we get all 3 cities to legendary by accident purely by their CPT, that would suck A LOT.
We currently have 38% of the 64% land required for Dom. Pop is negligible since we WILL get that easily. SB and Saladin are an ideal target because ALL of their cities are coastal or one off coast. If we capture the cities quickly, SB won't have any chance to retaliate. We could kill him off completely, take most of Saladin's cities, kill his stack and vassal him. Gift him all of SB's cities and get him to research for us.
May I take the opportunity to point out democracy so that we can build the SoL? Not sure how much it will help though. 4400 beakers and 1500 hammers (actually much less because of Ind, Copper and other buildings). That basically means a free pop in every city. Every city running a Eng spec would mean +2 hammers and 32 (so far) cities means 64 hammers per turn. Not a big benefit really and would take around 90 turns for SoL to pay off purely on the hammer basis assuming a 1:1 ratio of conversion for hammers to beakers. (I haven't taken multipliers into account since they effect everything).
How do we plan to deal with Emanc unhappiness? Could we perhaps whenever it comes to it, use the Esp slider to revolt AI back to whatever civic we are running?
It will have to happen once every 25 turns or so or my solution is we could vassal two AI (killing one off completely) to get a super vassal, get close to the dom limit and then this super vassal will actually be good enough to research techs for us and we won't be relying on a gamble.We should make sure that one city is behind in culture because if we get all 3 cities to legendary by accident purely by their CPT, that would suck A LOT.
We currently have 38% of the 64% land required for Dom. Pop is negligible since we WILL get that easily. SB and Saladin are an ideal target because ALL of their cities are coastal or one off coast. If we capture the cities quickly, SB won't have any chance to retaliate. We could kill him off completely, take most of Saladin's cities, kill his stack and vassal him. Gift him all of SB's cities and get him to research for us.
SteelHorse
Deity
Depends a bit on timing. Weekdays tend not to be great for me, long days at the office. And i dont want to hold the team up. we have about 7 weeks left. Probably more important is agreeing next steps. On the upside, I've pretty much got the position memorized. Spent a couple of hours just preparing to play yesterday. I want to take a deeper look and see if i understand the culture v Dom victory options. I kinda think we need to decide that, then line up the cities before next turnset.
Great analysis neil. I just want to make sure I understand it.
SteelHorse
Deity
Ok - here are some thoughts. I am sure you all know this, but I needed to put to paper so that I could keep it all straight in my feeble mind. And by all means if I have any of this wrong correct me.
There are 3 basic resources that go into cities which produce outputs.
Resources:
1. Food which increases + maintains Population. (Pop can be turned into hammers via whip, beakers/hammers/culture via specialist).
2. Hammers which can generate buildings, units, gold, beakers, or culture.
3. Commerce which can generate research, culture or gold (as controlled by macros slider).
Beakers can also come from trading and bulbing and corps.
Cultural can from commerce (macro slider), hammers (via buildings and straight build), specialist, bulbing GAs, and corps.
There are 2 cities will generate the majority of our beakers due to the cottaging and mutipliers that are applied to commerce and scientists. Paris and Commerce. Both have Academies (+50%) and Commerce has Oxf (+100%) in addition to Lib, Salon, Uni, (and perhaps Labs).
Ignoring our culture goal, if we want to get to FT1 the fastest we need to maximize the multipliers in Paris and Commerce. This means putting every population onto either a town (with FS +2 commerce) or a Scientist (6bpt with Rep/Caste). Putting a population onto any else will decrease our tech rate. The 5 hammer mine will only produce 5 bpt if building culture, that same population set a a scientist will generate 6 * 235% = 20 bpt! In general, hammers are a poor source of culture or research as they do not go through multipiers.
While this is true in every city, and every city contributes to overall research, not every city has an academy and/or Oxford, sadly none of brens or rams cities had one either. That would have been very nice.
On the other hand, Legendary cultural cities are tied to specific cities and not a global phenomenon like research. So the question is: are there 2 (or 3 if we go cultural victory) that can achieve cultural status if we focus all the effort from Paris and Commerce on research. Or will Paris and Commerce reach Legendary status without needing to run artists and building culture buildings.
We have lots of culture buildings left on the table. The Shrines (50% - and multiple per city), the Hermitage (100%), theatres, Globe, RocknRoll, Eiffel, Hollywood, etc. I suggest we try to find some high hammer cities that can build these and aim to run artist in these powered by Sushi to get us to legendary. Zhou, thebes, Stone maybe.
I am going to try to do some analysis around these cities to see how quickly they could get to legendary.
Thoughts?
There are 3 basic resources that go into cities which produce outputs.
Resources:
1. Food which increases + maintains Population. (Pop can be turned into hammers via whip, beakers/hammers/culture via specialist).
2. Hammers which can generate buildings, units, gold, beakers, or culture.
3. Commerce which can generate research, culture or gold (as controlled by macros slider).
Beakers can also come from trading and bulbing and corps.
Cultural can from commerce (macro slider), hammers (via buildings and straight build), specialist, bulbing GAs, and corps.
There are 2 cities will generate the majority of our beakers due to the cottaging and mutipliers that are applied to commerce and scientists. Paris and Commerce. Both have Academies (+50%) and Commerce has Oxf (+100%) in addition to Lib, Salon, Uni, (and perhaps Labs).
Ignoring our culture goal, if we want to get to FT1 the fastest we need to maximize the multipliers in Paris and Commerce. This means putting every population onto either a town (with FS +2 commerce) or a Scientist (6bpt with Rep/Caste). Putting a population onto any else will decrease our tech rate. The 5 hammer mine will only produce 5 bpt if building culture, that same population set a a scientist will generate 6 * 235% = 20 bpt! In general, hammers are a poor source of culture or research as they do not go through multipiers.
While this is true in every city, and every city contributes to overall research, not every city has an academy and/or Oxford, sadly none of brens or rams cities had one either. That would have been very nice.
On the other hand, Legendary cultural cities are tied to specific cities and not a global phenomenon like research. So the question is: are there 2 (or 3 if we go cultural victory) that can achieve cultural status if we focus all the effort from Paris and Commerce on research. Or will Paris and Commerce reach Legendary status without needing to run artists and building culture buildings.
We have lots of culture buildings left on the table. The Shrines (50% - and multiple per city), the Hermitage (100%), theatres, Globe, RocknRoll, Eiffel, Hollywood, etc. I suggest we try to find some high hammer cities that can build these and aim to run artist in these powered by Sushi to get us to legendary. Zhou, thebes, Stone maybe.
I am going to try to do some analysis around these cities to see how quickly they could get to legendary.
Thoughts?
