SGOTM 16 - U'nu'sual S'us'pec'ts

[Revent]

I was thinking for now more as a fail gold source really. Wonder hammers are worth more than building wealth anyway for an IND

I plan to end my turnset once the oracle is built. or can do the turn before it is built. Doesn't really matter.

 

[Revent]

Anyway, what do you think Phoenix Rising have done to get a higher score than we did before we did? An extra wonder maybe? Higher population? Extra city?

 

[Deckhand]

Sounds like you optimized the Oracle building in your tests.
Did you also optimize the research?

 

[ChrisShaffer]

Do we have a granary in GP Farm? Wouldn't that be better than building Pyramids for fail gold?

 

[neilmeister]

Pyramids is tempting, imagine +3 happiness in our 5 biggest cities, but it is normally such a hammer grave.

I'm impressed you got Oracle in 775bc, I will play out the micro this morning to add my comments.

First reaction to reading the micro is that we surely do not need to have the workers idle. We can alternate Oracle/Chariot builds in Paris so that we are building Oracle when the chops are done.

I presume MC is our Oracle target?

 

[Benginal]

1) Micro - I'm going to let you guys worry about that. I think one worker having two idle turns is really silly. Can't he at least build half a road somewhere or something?

2) Pyramids - Yeah we're in Industrious. But we've already got TGL and are making that our strategy so we're going to want huge cities fast, not specialists. So the rep benefit is nerfed. And the benefits of having another 2 workers and a settler (or whatever it is) I think outweighs the benefits of the fail gold. The Pyramids don't really seem to fit in with our overall strategy of large coastal cities. To be honest, TOA makes more sense. Have we thought about that? That would mean poly instead of medi? Thoughts? (Apologies for adding a whole new dimension to this oracle thing)

3) Oracle Tech - MC sounds the best to me. Cheap forges are great, especially with happy metal nearby.

4) Production City - I think instead of building workboat -> granary -> lighthouse. We should go workboat -> granary -> worker (whip) -> lighthouse. Or something like that. We need more expansion materials and less infrastructure. TGL is all the infra we need for a while.

 

[Trystero]

1) Micro - I'm going to let you guys worry about that. I think one worker having two idle turns is really silly. Can't he at least build half a road somewhere or something?

2) Pyramids - Yeah we're in Industrious. But we've already got TGL and are making that our strategy so we're going to want huge cities fast, not specialists. So the rep benefit is nerfed. And the benefits of having another 2 workers and a settler (or whatever it is) I think outweighs the benefits of the fail gold. The Pyramids don't really seem to fit in with our overall strategy of large coastal cities. To be honest, TOA makes more sense. Have we thought about that? That would mean poly instead of medi? Thoughts? (Apologies for adding a whole new dimension to this oracle thing)

3) Oracle Tech - MC sounds the best to me. Cheap forges are great, especially with happy metal nearby.

4) Production City - I think instead of building workboat -> granary -> lighthouse. We should go workboat -> granary -> worker (whip) -> lighthouse. Or something like that. We need more expansion materials and less infrastructure. TGL is all the infra we need for a while.

I'm going to second Benginal's comments. I am especially skeptical of the Pyramids idea. Even being Industrious, that's a lot of hammers that could go into expansion or military. I am intrigued by the ToA suggeston. That certainly would fit well with TGL. Edit: And to clarify, I am not completely opposed to Pyramids (running Rep would be nice) or endorsing building ToA, I just think we need to have sound strategic reasons for pursuing either, other than that we are IND.

 

[neilmeister]

Sorry, haven't been able to play it through yet. Will have to wait until I get home.

Disagree regarding switching to Poly for ToA. Oracle is late as it is and every turn extra is a huge gamble. We should stick to Meditation.

Pyramids would more fit our strat from a +3 happiness in biggest 5 cities rather than for the specialists bonus. Production city could potentially slow build it using whip overflow from workers/forge/lighthouse, but I agree that it is a low priority use of hammers.

Brennus built Stonehenge, maybe he has Stone and will build us the mids as well.

 

[Revent]

Pyramids is tempting, imagine +3 happiness in our 5 biggest cities, but it is normally such a hammer grave.

I'm impressed you got Oracle in 775bc, I will play out the micro this morning to add my comments.

First reaction to reading the micro is that we surely do not need to have the workers idle. We can alternate Oracle/Chariot builds in Paris so that we are building Oracle when the chops are done.

I presume MC is our Oracle target?

Oh, there is no alternating with the chariot builds. We finish researching priesthood, we insta build the oracle
However. I will build a road or something rather than leave it idle. However, I will leave that marked as idle in case something goes wrong! As you can see, the worker actions all complement each other and worker 3 is the key worker here (without his positioning, it wouldn't be possible to insta build oracle).

Do we have a granary in GP Farm? Wouldn't that be better than building Pyramids for fail gold?

No granary. I'm not sure if it would be better. I'll let everyone discuss that

Sounds like you optimized the Oracle building in your tests.
Did you also optimize the research?

Not much can be done to optimise research with such small cities and no writing! I mean I could've starved a few cities to run scientists I guess but no writing yet.

 

[Revent]

Pyramids:
-Low priority
-Rep happiness could be a benefit BUT researching Oracle means that Monarchy is just down the door
-The great engineer points would be AMAZING and dilute our GM pool so far.
-Expensive build even with Ind
-Colossus will also soon be available once we research MC
-Around 286 hammers cost (if I count correctly) with a forge
-Will be beneficial to have until constitution after which it will still be generating culture

Colossus:
-We can put this on the backburner for some time so no priority at the moment
-Expires at Astronomy (so pretty quickly considering Astro is a priority, but it will pay for itself)
-We should build after we get copper IF possible
-Low hammer investment, easily pays for itself fast enough
-May not synergise with ToA
-Gives us GM points which are not valued high at the moment

Temple of Artemis:
-Expires at Scientific Method (meaning we want to delay this somewhat, because ToA commerce routes are deadly with GLH)
-Cheap build
-However, requires us to research Polytheism and go off our tech route
-To maximise, we want Astro ASAP to maximise TR's.
-Can probably get roughly 80 (probably more) commerce from ToA city JUST from commerce
-Gives us GM points which are not really needed as it is
-Free priest however dilutes our GM pool at the moment which wouldn't be a bad thing
-We want polytheism anyway eventually because TGL is a VERY good wonder to get and free GA from Music should be used to trigger a GA so we can generate two scientists.

 

[neilmeister]

That is a really good summary of the wonders. I personally wouldn't wait for Copper to build Colossus, unless it is easily connectable. ie Not the one at the south of the continent.

@Priesthood, Oracle & Workers. OK, understood. Will play it through shortly and comment.


edit: also, don't forget that we could potentially chop out some of the forests on t82, after the Chariot whip. I will have to check at what point the hammers get converted to gold, but it could mean 2-3 workers chopping on t83 instead of all 4.

 

[Revent]

Well, the exploring workboat may reveal something very interesting to us which is why I just added that in.

Also, just to note that we WANT to be generating as MANY great people as possible. This can't be done via one GP farm. We will needs multiple cities running a large number of mixed specialists. Owning the Mids will definitely help that cause even though at this specific moment in time, it will be a big investment and not pay off for a long time.

I also would like to mention we must leave an area for a national park. That can be a pretty powerful wonder considering what our late game aims are. In an ideal situation running 20 specialists (realistically a bit less of course) will be game breaking

 

[Revent]

Come on guys, I really wanna play This is really tense, not knowing whether or not we can get the oracle!

 

[Benginal]

Haha, it's tense indeed. I think we're still waiting for group consensus on two main issues.

1) Medi or Poly. Medi gets us to the Oracle faster, but Poly gets us to ToA, Glib, and Music (GA + Cathedrals) faster. If we pick Poly, Revent will have to re-work the micro.

2) Pyramids or Granary/workers/settlers. Pyramids gets us happy from Rep or fail gold. Workers/Settlers get us more land and more improvements (captain obvious to the rescue), but I'm not sure when we should fit in the granary (this is more of a micro problem).

Official Tally so far:

Medi: 0
Poly: 1 (Benginal)

Pyramids: 0
Settlers/Workers: 1 (Benginal)

 

[Revent]

Could we not backtrack and get out Poly after writing? It will cost us 3 turns maybe? Maximising our chances of the oracle is what is crucial here and missing it out by 1 turn would be very frustrating indeed (which is why I 1 turned it via micro )
Med from me
Mids from me as well.

Our GP farm doesn't REALLY need a granary yet. It's optimal size for GP generation is size 3 until Bio/Sushi. A granary right now will not be AS much benefit.

Re: Wonders, I played a test game and ToA went on Turn 101 on Emp. Oracle went much much earlier, I think turn 60 something.

 

[Benginal]

I guess I'm more concerned with expansion at this point that great people. GP city could pop out a few workers/settlers before it starts on GP points, in which a granary would be good.

Medi: 1 (Revent)
Poly: 1 (Benginal)

Pyramids: 1 (Revent)
Settlers/Workers: 1 (Benginal)

Note: I'm not huge on poly. I think it can wait and ToA usually goes pretty late? Has anyone been checking that date when checking Oracle? So I can go either way.

Note 2: I really don't like the Pyramids. Expansion is so much better.

 

[Trystero]

Could we not backtrack and get out Poly after writing? It will cost us 3 turns maybe? Maximising our chances of the oracle is what is crucial here and missing it out by 1 turn would be very frustrating indeed (which is why I 1 turned it via micro )
Med from me
Mids from me as well.

I don't think delaying the Oracle by a turn is worth the risk. I vote for Meditation as well.

Our GP farm doesn't REALLY need a granary yet. It's optimal size for GP generation is size 3 until Bio/Sushi. A granary right now will not be AS much benefit.

I'm not sure I understand this. It has pigs, fish, and deer, but we should only grow it to pop 3? I must be misunderstanding you.

Re: building the Pyramids. How many turns would it take to complete? In your turnset (i.e. the time it takes to finish Oracle) what else could we put those hammers into? That is how much production would we lose putting 6 turns into Pyramids? I'm concerned because your plan already calls for 3 idle worker turns. (edit: I just saw your comment about the workers not being idle.)

 

[Deckhand]

Not much can be done to optimise research with such small cities and no writing! I mean I could've starved a few cities to run scientists I guess but no writing yet.

You are right, the cities are small and optimal tiles pretty obvious. I was thinking of things like working coast instead of mine with Paris growth if that gets Priesthood sooner, or even coast instead of pigs in GPF.

I vote with Revent for Meditation.

 

[Revent]

I don't think delaying the Oracle by a turn is worth the risk. I vote for Meditation as well.



I'm not sure I understand this. It has pigs, fish, and deer, but we should only grow it to pop 3? I must be misunderstanding you.

Re: building the Pyramids. How many turns would it take to complete? In your turnset (i.e. the time it takes to finish Oracle) what else could we put those hammers into? That is how much production would we lose putting 6 turns into Pyramids? I'm concerned because your plan already calls for 3 idle worker turns.

I was thinking along the lines of this:
At size 3, it can run 6 specialists, at size 4-6, it can run 6 specialists as well. Higher population size this early in the game will just cost us more and give us very little.
At size 7+, the number of specialists we can run decreases until Bio where plain farms will get extra food and then every two farmed plains tiles will get us one extra specialist. I'm not saying we keep it at size 3, for now, whatever size is fine, but post caste, size 3-6 would be optimal (with all water tiles being worked and 3 food).

It will take us 28 turns to build the pyramids (23 if we build forge first) if the city is at size 5 however. (I seem to be contradicting myself here somewhat, aren't I?). However, I am not ADVOCATING building it because Ind or not, forges or not, it is still an expensive build. However, if we put it on the backburner for now, we can slow build it. If we get it, good for us, if not, we get decent fail gold.

Edit: Looking on it now, I guess a worker first COULD be better, but for now, I think we have enough of them. We will need to build a few more once we start researching Alpha however.

 

[ChrisShaffer]

I vote for Meditation - delaying the Oracle is bad.

Our GP farm will have +11 food when working fish/pigs/deer once we camp the deer. That will be 5.5 specialists, who can also take turns working the mines to build libraries and such. So it needs to grow to size 8 minimum. A granary will get us there faster, and also allow for the population needed to work the two mines. Pyramids don't appeal to me - I vote for either a granary or more units.

I think we have another point of decision - I (and I think Neil) vote strongly against idle worker turns. The micro needs to be fixed to eliminate the idle turns. (Maybe this was already done?)

edited to fix my math errors