SGOTM 17 - Kakumeika

Kaitzilla · May 18, 2013

Hmm, actually, we won't be able to record Sury production values from Espionage. We need about 100 :espionage:

on him to get that kind of info.

Starting my turnset in 25 minutes using the PPP!

Won't upgrade the chariot.
Playing to T135 conquest of barb city or stopping condition is met or the barbs build themselves a 2nd defender.

Sun Tzu Wu · May 18, 2013

bcool said:
I don't know this is a conquest game and we are imperialistic. The leadership promo makes generating more GG faster. It is not a useless promo and we would only use the GG medic for clean up duty (99.9% combats).

I think we will get plenty of Great Generals and it really something that helps us. I don't think is such a dramatic decision.

Why do we even want our C1Med3 unit accumulating XPs? Aside from Leadership, what promotions, especially Warlord promotions do we want it to have? Getting one extra XP each for 1-2 combats per city this unit sieges is not particularly compelling. It doesn't really increase the GG rate that much (I've never noticed an increase when I did use Leadership promotions, but wasn't watching closely either). I suspect that its effect will help our GG rate by something less than 5% when one considers that all the other non-GG units are getting on average about 2 XP per combat engagement. Since, all our units now usually start with 5 XPs, the advantage of giving them these 99.9% combats isn't as great than if we had a significant number of units with only 3 XPs. In any case, I still don't see much of an advantage to allowing our C1Med3 unit gain XPs when it takes so many to get that next promotion and when we get it, we still can't use many of them effectively without risking the C1Med3 unit.

The reality is there really aren't many additional useful promotions for a mounted C1Med3 unit. A C1Med3 unit that can get Woodsman III is very useful, since it heals an additional 15% in the plot the unit is in (beyond Med3 15%), but mounted units can't get Woodsman promotions. For lack of better alternatives, I give C1Med3 units Morale when Woodsman III is not a viable option; with Morale they can stay in the back areas and rush in after taking a city to heal units. They can also run away faster to safety, if the need arises.

While I don't have a strong opinion on using a Leadership promotion or not, I really do not want our Chariot C1Med3 unit upgraded. It is safer in our stack as a mere Chariot = Strength 4.4 with no terrain defensive bonuses.

The best promotions for getting more XPs at extremely high combat odds are the entire Drill line of promotions.

Sun Tzu Wu

Kaitzilla · May 18, 2013

Sun Tzu Wu said:
Why do we even want our C1Med3 unit accumulating XPs? Aside from Leadership, what promotions, especially Warlord promotions do we want it to have? Getting one extra XP each for 1-2 combats per city this unit sieges is not particularly compelling. It doesn't really increase the GG rate that much (I've never noticed an increase when I did use Leadership promotions, but wasn't watching closely either). I suspect that its effect will help our GG rate by something less than 5% when one considers that all the other non-GG units are getting on average about 2 XP per combat engagement. Since, all our units now usually start with 5 XPs, the advantage of giving them these 99.9% combats isn't as great than if we had a significant number of units with only 3 XPs. In any case, I still don't see much of an advantage to allowing our C1Med3 unit gain XPs when it takes so many to get that next promotion and when we get it, we still can't use many of them effectively without risking the C1Med3 unit.

The reality is there really aren't many additional useful promotions for a mounted C1Med3 unit. A C1Med3 unit that can get Woodsman III is very useful, since it heals an additional 15% in the plot the unit is in (beyond Med3 15%), but mounted units can't get Woodsman promotions. For lack of better alternatives, I give C1Med3 units Morale when Woodsman III is not a viable option; with Morale they can stay in the back areas and rush in after taking a city to heal units. They can also run away faster to safety, if the need arises.

While I don't have a strong opinion on using a Leadership promotion or not, I really do not want our Chariot C1Med3 unit upgraded. It is safer in our stack as a mere Chariot = Strength 4.4 with no terrain defensive bonuses.

The best promotions for getting more XPs at extremely high combat odds are the entire Drill line of promotions.

Sun Tzu Wu

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=425755

With the Imperialist trait, you can get 4 Great General Points for winning a 99.99999% fight with a Leadership SuperMedic Knight.

You get a Great General at 30,80,130,180 points etc etc.

It's a very nice promo if your stack of doom is constantly facing decimated units that got hit by trebs.

Again, mathematically it should be safe if we have a bunch of Combat II knights and a Landsknecht or 2.

I still don't plan on doing the upgrade this turnset.

Kaitzilla · May 18, 2013

t131 - Actually, we do have sabotage values on Qin and Sury.
The 2nd Great General is 60points, that post I linked was wrong. Maybe it is 30/60/90/120 etc.
Looks like Peter is the one who disovered Philosophy.
Signed Cease Fire with Mansa.
Traded Optics to Mansa for 90 :gold:

Gifted Mansa Hades Anvil. We gained +11gpt heh.
Traded Literature to Tokugawa for 110 :gold:

Demanded 50 :gold:

from Churchill. He gave it to us and complaigned about kicking a down civ.

(-1 diplo and 10 turns of peace)
Traded Gems to Qin for Sugar.
Scout in Toku's lands has found another barb city on the other side of the mountains. It is way south and tiny bit east of the railroad going south from Hade's Hammer.

T132 - Shwedagon Paya was built by Churchill.
Vision chariot reveals Angkor Wat has 2 Mace, 1Crossbow, 2Swords, 1 archer. Most all have Combat I. No walls or castle, just 40% Def.
Our Exploration axe quickly dead ended in the far west on railroad. Across some coastal water is another barb city. The ice blockage curves south, so maybe taking barb city gives access to Churchill, but can't see it :cry:

Railroad dead ends going backwards to the east too. The west-east rail doesn't connect to the north-south.

T133 - Sury got himself a Great Merchant and added a Mace in Angkor Wat.
Trojan City revolted to us. Gave it back to Qin after checking it still had 1 :culture:

in it. Got a free longbow out of it.
Qin moved his stack out of Xian into our land, and no DoW. Almost 100% sure he is targeting Mansa.

T134 - Qin still 3 turns from Guilds. Wish he'd hurry up already!
Can attack Angkor Wat now, but Sury added a Crossbow from the south and upgrade the archer to longbow. So 1 killer short. Will move up 2 killers, heal up a bunch of units a turn, and bombard the defenses down. Will attack T135 for sure. Vision chariot shows no units reinforcing from south.
Took back Hade's Anvil from Mansa. It was in revolt :lol:

Lost the granary, kept the lighthouse.
Are now -87gpt. Should turn the corner soon, Timbuktu just got Market whipped.

T135 - Angkor Wat built in faraway land.
Sury added a pike for 9 decent defenders. Looks like a chop is about to land, so gonna attack with lots of trebs.
But first, the barb fortress! Can one lone archer defend against 3 Combat II phants, a Combat I phant from the sea, a 5.5hp Combat III phant, and a 4.0hp medic axe? Let's find out!
Captured Hade's Hammer. Lost 1 Phant. Captured 2 workers. City had a Granary and Bunker.
Captured Angkor Wat and Sury's Iron. Lost 3 trebs and 2 swords at >50% odds grr.
City had Parthenon and Hagia Sophia, so 50% Great People points and 50% faster workers. Also captured 2 more workers.
Great General born in Aachen.
Qin back to doing Guilds in 1 turn. He is building castles now. :cry:

Pausing Game and uploading now! Notre Dame is going to be a few turns late. Miscalculated the outside border chops :sad:

We should be getting lots of fail gold soon though.

Turnset Log:

Spoiler :

Sun Tzu Wu · May 18, 2013

Kaitzilla said:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=425755

With the Imperialist trait, you can get 4 Great General Points for winning a 99.99999% fight with a Leadership SuperMedic Knight.

You get a Great General at 30,80,130,180 points etc etc.

It's a very nice promo if your stack of doom is constantly facing decimated units that got hit by trebs.

Again, mathematically it should be safe if we have a bunch of Combat II knights and a Landsknecht or 2.

I still don't plan on doing the upgrade this turnset.

The Imperialistic trait applies to all units (they all get 2x XPs), so you are still only getting twice as many XPs with the Leadership promotion. I still say it helps one get at most 5% more GG points. The C1Med3 unit is one of about 20 units and doesn't do more combats than any other unit, so I don't see a practical way for it to generate more than 5% extra GG points.

Since you really want to use the Leadership promotion and it does have some benefit (I never considered that it really does generate more GG points before), then please go ahead and use it. Just remember that the C1Med3 unit has few useful promotions other than Leadership apparently, so accumulating XPs on this unit doesn't help get useful promotions. There may be other units that would benefit from the XPs more than the C1Med3 unit though.

Good luck Kaitzilla!

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · May 19, 2013

I've been tracking your turn report post. Just finished reading news of turn 134. Keep up the great work Kaitzilla!

Sun Tzu Wu

Kaitzilla · May 19, 2013

Buffy Log:

Spoiler :

Some T135 Real Game Pics!:

Spoiler :

Kaitzilla · May 19, 2013

Hmm, Mansa lost his axe and last we saw he had a catapult,spear,and x2skirmishers.

We can actually send 3 phants home (just like Sossos said :eek:

) and leave 1 CombatIII phant and a medic axe to guard Hade's Hammer. Won't explore the surrounding area as only an axe or landsknecht is appropriate(spears can kill phants). And if we lose Hade's Hammer to a lucky attack because there are roads and railroads leading everywhere into the wilderness, it would simply be a disaster. So the injured axe by itself down south will keep exploring solo until the barb cities can establish themselves.

Can divert a sword and a treb to beat on Mansa's copper city till the phants arrive. There is a 4th phant at kumbi saleh because he kept threatening it. 4phants,sword,and treb should be able to take his city and leave him with one. Maybe stop building a theatre and whip an extra sword since the phants surviving green lit the Mansa attack.

Hade's Hammer can whip a Rathaus after a turn of starving and after that make anything we want quite easily. It has so much food and granary already

Those 2 barb cities can make cities and set up everything we need out west by themselves. Kansas might be able to pitch in later too.

Will continue to beat on Sury. Will construct some war roads and move the army to 2N2W of Angkor Thom. Then march SE and take that city too. The hilltop city surrounded by rice will be slightly beyond my turnset.
We have 2 spies on the southern continent now. Hopefully their advance scouting will allow us to start splitting our stack of doom as it continues to grow and we can target lightly defended cities quicker.
Moving that chariot in Angkor Wat 1E should get us that 3rd worker.
Staying in place and healing for 2 turns will heal the army (5% enemy territory+10% medic)=15% twice or 30%. Move everyone into the city and healing 1 turn will heal (15% friendly territory+10% medic)= 25%, so best to just keep the stack in place. All the reinforcements will be ready to advance in 2 turns using new war roads, so that's best length of time to wait.

Chariots are doing good work. Got us Angkor Wat in 1 turn of attacking and an extra worker soon to be 2 workers

bcool · May 19, 2013

Nice job Kaitzilla, sorry about the bad luck capturing Sury's city.

Good to see Hades' Hammer fall. I was hoping Hades' Hammer would keep its nuclear fallout shelter :lol:

Looks like there is a path past Hades' Anvil and Hades' Hammer through the mountains near gold city. Just a curiosity now.

We might need to start building a road out to Peter soon.

Kaitzilla · May 19, 2013

bcool said:
Nice job Kaitzilla, sorry about the bad luck capturing Sury's city.

Good to see Hades' Hammer fall. I was hoping Hades' Hammer would keep its nuclear fallout shelter

Looks like there is a path past Hades' Anvil and Hades' Hammer through the mountains near gold city. Just a curiosity now

We might need to start building a road out to Peter soon.

We're going to need that fallout shelter :crazyeye:

I can hear Humbaba warming up the ICBM's now.

Ya, we could drop a unit down west of gold city now to go look, but it is curiosity mostly.

Need a landsknecht to really protect roading workers and expanding west if we wanted to start that now. Maybe Djenne can build one.

Looks like decision whether to double bulb Astro has reached a dead end.

I'm tilting towards us not needing it. I won't say 100% until we have an army teleported into Churchill's lands, but that's a bit late to decide.

On the other hand, nothing wrong with continuing to wait. Still don't have a 3rd Great Scientist to tempt us with bulbing Astro+Gunpowder.

So, continue to hold the Great Scientists I think.

There will be quite the strong incentive to Golden Age if we steal banking and DoW Qin because we will lose all trade routes and can run Mercantilism for +1 free specialist everywhere. It would get the bank built faster in Timbuktu and Timbuktu should be decently big by then too.

We've got a 10xp medic axe with GG attached in Hade's Hammer, and a 5xp medic chariot just south of Timbuktu. If we get another great general, we could split the xp and have a super medic axe and a 15/17xp almost super medic knight. Mmm, been a while since I've seen 3 super medics. They are for when you have wars on many fronts.

bcool · May 19, 2013

Kaitzilla said:
We're going to need that fallout shelter

I can hear Humbaba warming up the ICBM's now.

Ya, we could drop a unit down west of gold city now to go look, but it is curiosity mostly.

Need a landsknecht to really protect roading workers and expanding west if we wanted to start that now. Maybe Djenne can build one.

Looks like decision whether to double bulb Astro has reached a dead end.

I'm tilting towards us not needing it. I won't say 100% until we have an army teleported into Churchill's lands, but that's a bit late to decide.

On the other hand, nothing wrong with continuing to wait. Still don't have a 3rd Great Scientist to tempt us with bulbing Astro+Gunpowder.

So, continue to hold the Great Scientists I think.

There will be quite the strong incentive to Golden Age if we steal banking and DoW Qin because we will lose all trade routes and can run Mercantilism for +1 free specialist everywhere. It would get the bank built faster in Timbuktu and Timbuktu should be decently big by then too.

Yes a golden age and switch to merchantilism & theocracy! looks to be in our future.
The only issue with waiting is we could trade for maps now and resolve the map situation for certain. Although it seems we are okay map wise and conclusions regarding it.

Should we start an aggressive spy production campaign and fill Qin's cities with spies?

Kaitzilla · May 19, 2013

bcool said:
Yes a golden age and switch to merchantilism & theocracy! looks to be in our future.
The only issue with waiting is we could trade for maps now and resolve the map situation for certain. Although it seems we are okay map wise and conclusions regarding it.

Should we start an aggressive spy production campaign and fill Qin's cities with spies?

Mmm, with so many castles, it might be a campaign of blowing up walls, bombarding the city down, and assaulting it, so our SOD would need a lot of trebs to do it in one turn.

On the bright side, we have enough galleys to chain a spy from Aachen all the way down the soon to be fort 2N of Raja, so the turnaround shouldn't be too bad. Or we could use the railroad and chain them down to Vienna (Gold City) with a shorter galley chain.

That would keep the spy turnaround low.

We only need spies to attack the cities we intend to target first. Do we attack Qin from the north or go for his capital from the side once Sury falls?

Either way will be a bloodbath because his horse and iron supply are deep inside his territory and we won't have any superior units to send to sit on them.

Even if we blow one up with spies, his horde of workers will fix it in one turn. And those barrage Xbows with all the first strikes. I'm not sure a Knight/Landsknecht pair could take a resource and sit on it without being attacked and dying. The horse resource might be worth trying if we don't mind losing 2 units making the attempt.

If we started the Qin war with a medium army in Japan territory, we might be able to take his city and lose him his horses that way. Then at least we wouldn't have to fight knights. But we do have phants and lands to sort of counter knights. And we want that medium army to go wipe out Churchill while he is still a pushover. Gah!

bcool · May 19, 2013

looks like we should be able to blow up his horses with spies and perhaps with Japan's help keep his workers from rebuilding them. Might be worth blowing up his iron to disrupt his crossbow & pikeman & knight builds -- he might not rebuild them in one turn.

Also if we do have a golden age, I think it makes sense to switch to caste system (and theocracy and merchantilism hopefully) so that we can flip Qin to caste system the turn before the war starts. Then before the end of the golden age flip back to slavery.

Kaitzilla · May 19, 2013

I think I've got a handle on the new developments.

Will stick mostly to the PPP and start the rest of my turnset in 20 minutes if there is no objection. This one is taking a while and I go pretty slow.

Conquering Sury should take most all of the next turnset, so there will be time to do Qin preperations then.

I'll try to get another spy or 2 down south more than planned because of the castle buildup.

Oh ya, Sury has a Great Merchant near Qin's capital. I wonder if we can get some of that gold during a very short ceasefire if he does trade mission?
He is at war with Toku so trade mission probably to Qin. Shouldn't be any diplo consequences and every AI has their hands full already to be DoW'ing us for the frequent wars. :hmm:

**Edit**
Starting now.

T136 - Sury did his trade mission. Only 90 :gold:

available so nvm on the cease fire idea.
Toku got a Great Scientist.
Cross your fingers for Guilds steal. Lost a spy Inbetween Turns.
Guilds stolen! Qin now researching Banking in 7 turns.
Captured another barb worker. Sury disbanded his.
0% slider on Gunpowder now. We have 570 :gold:

and -93gpt :eek:

Traded fish to Toku for 6gpt.

T137 - Peter built Chichen Itza. So +25% defenses for him.
Got 140 :gold:

for completing Heroic Epic. Mmm fail gold.
Churchill is willing to trade us Civil Service. Don't want to advance him so won't do any trade.
No path to Churchill through southern Toku lands. Completely walled off by that ice.
Qin is forming a very big stack in Chengu now.
Spies show that Sury has Angkor Thom defenses of 40%. 2 Longbow, Xbow,Mace, Cata.
Hilltop city Hariharalaya has 60% defense and 1 longbow 1 sword.
Traded Cow to Qin for 6gpt. Only Phantown is affected by -1 food. We get another cow from Hades Hammer in about 8 turns.

T138 - Got 175 :gold:

fail gold from Chichen Itza.
Lots of barb moving around Hade's Hammer. Mowing them down.
Sury's capital had 3 longbows and pike and 100% castle defense. Switching espionage to Sury for a wall sabotage later.
His 4th city has axe and longbow

T139- A spy in Sury's land got caught.
Lost an elephant to barbs west of Hade's Hammer. Still have combat III phant and medic axe guarding. All barbs wiped out that I can see.
Angkor Thom fell. No losses. No buildings, but kept the city cause it had 5 pop and 3 pigs in BFC.
It's his capital that has Great Library and Temple of Artemis sorry.
Hah, Kansas got a Confu spread.

T140 - Economy is starting to overheat a little. -97gpt. Have 662 :gold:

and some more overflow coming next turn from Notre Dame fail gold.
Lost a spy in Trojan Horse

T141 - Notre Dame is ours

+2 happy to all!
Our fail gold lands next turn I guess. We have 550 :gold:

and are losing about -98 per turn. Need some Rathaus whips :lol:

Mansa's copper city and Sury's hilltop city are ready to fall. Hilltop city might be a killer unit short after the trebs, I was surprised by a catapult and longbow combo that killed a Landknecht.
We should probably raze both of them. I don't think we can keep marginal food inland cities anymore.

Good luck to the next soul!

Sun Tzu Wu · May 19, 2013

I'm planning to create a new test game from scratch. It will have all the correct Civs and all their known cities, buildings, wonders, terrain, improvements and units. If trading World Maps isn't too expensive, it would be nice to include that information as well.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · May 19, 2013

Has anyone considered the details of teleporting our initial task force against Churchill? Can we still settle a teleport anchor city or will we need to capture a city for that purpose. It appears that the anchor city could be either north or east of the ice barrier.

Sun Tzu Wu

Kaitzilla · May 19, 2013

Sun Tzu Wu said:
Has anyone considered the details of teleporting our initial task force against Churchill? Can we still settle a teleport anchor city or will we need to capture a city for that purpose. It appears that the anchor city could be either north or east of the ice barrier.

Sun Tzu Wu

If we are deep enough inside Toku's borders and the tele to neutral tile is only 2 tiles, it should easily work without anchor city.

I'm not sure making a new test game from scratch is a good idea. You'll die from exhaustion!

bcool · May 19, 2013

good luck Kaitzilla!

great news on guilds steal and banking tech for Qin

Kaitzilla · May 19, 2013

Game uploaded on T141.

Spoiler :

Kaitzilla · May 19, 2013

Spoiler :

Out of time. Might post pics and buffy log later.

SGOTM 17 - Kakumeika

Lord Croissant

Deity

Lord Croissant

Lord Croissant

Deity

Deity

Lord Croissant

Lord Croissant

Deity

Lord Croissant

Deity

Lord Croissant

Deity

Lord Croissant

Deity

Deity

Lord Croissant

Deity

Lord Croissant

Lord Croissant

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