SGOTM 18 - Unusual Suspects

SteelHorse · Nov 20, 2013

Deckhand said:
edit: argh, AUTOLOG has my turns from two days ago in the WOTM, but nothing for today! maybe it wasn't enabled, what is shortcut for BUFFY options?
I edited log above with blue color for noteworthy items, lost two units (felt like more)

Good work on Beshbalik :goodjob:

Cntrl-Alt-O should open the Buffy options screen. The Buffy autolog is located in a different spot as I recall than the prior autologs.
On my machine:
C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Autolog

Not the $User/Games location in prior revs. So it may be there instead.

Will take a look and comment tonight.

Deckhand · Nov 20, 2013

thanks, found it:

Spoiler :

Deckhand · Nov 20, 2013

Here is a partially updated test game.
It's not completely accurate in any way. Units engaged with Mongols moved slightly differently and hasn't been updated.
I worked in the southwest and Dr Evils Lair at updating the terrain. Fairly incomplete.

Anyone have suggestions for how to do this efficiently? I was alt-tabbing between the worldbuilder testsave and screen shots that I took of the realgame.

I will continue on it if I have time tomorrow.

shulec · Nov 20, 2013

Deckhand said:
Draft PPP T126-134

Objectives:
- Conquer Karakorum
- what else? I suggest we clean-up Genghis's lands while prepping to take Members Only.

Research:
- Nationalism at 0, then either Education or Nationalism (which ever Mansa isn’t researching) or Printing Press?
- Espionage on Mansa I think the new GSpy is enough. Put them on Shaka or Goldmember

Diplo:
~~- be nice to Mansa~~ Beg for 100 gold.
- accept begs from Joao
- more here?

City builds:
Washington: temple, Confu Missionary [switch citizens to cottages when temple built]
Fish City: library, settler
Pig City:, temple (whip now), treb??
Paradise Gate: temple, HE [note, considered whipping temple and decided we wanted the pop to work the hills when HE is built]No whip, but make sure to work riverside gmine over non-riverside gmines.
Ironside: Barracks (whip), treb?
Old Sarai: granary (chopped), ~~library~~ build worker one turn, then 2-pop whip
Beshbalik: Granary

Units:
Worker (Genghis (in Ironside): mines for Ironside
Worker (Khan (in Beshbalik)): cottages for Old Sarai
Worker Bee: ~~road to connect Ironside north to central Mongolian cities~~ Already done... send to Old Sarai for chopping or cottaging.
Worker 4: plantation

Worker 3: cottages west of Washington then cottages in floodplain for future city ??
Worker 2: cottages west of Washington then road to stone ??
Where are we putting filler cities? 3W of Fish City and 3W of stone? Start preparing for these cities? I like 3W of Fish City, coastal; and 2W of Stone. That wheat on the other side of the mountains is a pipe dream. We may have it a few turns until city spammer Joao takes it!

Triremes: stay on fish

Army: march north to Karakorum
Reserves: what should I do with xBows 7 & 8 and Ironside Garrison?
Send one to fur by hidden city. Send the other to Beshbalik to join stack Head to Karakorum or due north to see what GK has there? (note railroad tile)

Tao Missionary: spread Taoism in Washington for future monastery? now or when ready to build it? or save for something else?

Maybe save to be an advanced scout for Confucian missionary for Gandhi.

Spy in TH: wait for something to steal (steal horseback riding?) No HB stealing. We can trade for that.
Spy near TH: wait in our borders until needed (should it do something else?) Wait
Great Spy: infiltrate Trojan Horse – now or when needed? I say wait. If he infiltrates, this will push Mansa to try to "catch up" on EP. (Please correct me if I am wrong Pollina.
Great General - become military instructor in Paradise Gate (?) Yes

Pause conditions:
- ~~Mansa makes peace with Dr. Evil~~
- Joao or Mansa opens borders with Dr. Evil
- New tempting tech, gold and map trades available
- Approaching Dr. Evil stack
- GK and Mansa open borders
- ~~GK declares on Mansa~~
- ~~Gandhi city captured by Goldmember~~
- ~~another Joao city captured by Goldmember~~
- Anything else not previously discussed

Check Every Turn
Diplomatic situation
Trades available
(or let BUFFY tell me?)

More Questions:
What should I test in the test game?
I will update the test game now.
What else?Don't let RNG push us around!

See above

SteelHorse · Nov 21, 2013

A couple of comments.

Yes - Continue on to Karakorum.

Upgrading the Trebs and Cats to CR2 might be better that Accuracy. Attacking with CR2 Trebs should be pretty effective. May loose 1-2 but should always have at least one in the queue for replacements.

Would prefer to use Ironside, OS and Beshbalik as whip stations for units. No need for libraries or much tile improvement. They are close to the front and we will need some more Trebs. Granary, Barracks, whip.

I would hold off on the Great Spy infiltration until we know we need the EP. No downside and who knows what/when Mansa will research something we need.

Looks like another AP vote in 5 turns. Are we going to try to infect Gandhi?

I like the beg gold, but would try less perhaps 70. I just have never had a lot of success at 3-digit begs. But will defer to others with more experience.

Looks like we may loose Joao research visibility in a couple of turns. May want to redirect EP there to make sure we see where he goes next.

Do we want to be running a Spy Spec in Wash or switch to a cottage now?

I would have the workers chop to get infrastructure up sooner. And get the spices on line.

Is now the right time for a filler city?

For the GG another alternative is a CR3 Mace. That would be nice to have on the front. Military Instructor is also good.

neilmeister · Nov 21, 2013

Nice going, and bad luck on the units lost.

I agree with shulecs comments above, though I would like to see us starting Galleys in FC.
edit: I agree with SH in that we don't need/want the filler cities yet, Members Only is much yummier.

I would also add to the PPP:
- accept any beg/demand from Gandhi, Joao, Mansa.
- trade these 3 any resources we can spare

We need to start firming up the diplo.

Pollina · Nov 21, 2013

I agree with most of shulec’s comments on the PPP.
I’m not sure, whether infiltrating Mansa again will induce him to further raise his EP slider. In any case, we should infiltrate Mansa before we run our next spy mission, as the mission will get cheaper and more likely to be successful.

If we want to go for Members Only next, we should definitely put our EP on Goldmember. A support city revolt mission (~<200 EP) would be extremely helpful, as he will likely build a castle there before we get to attack him. To prepare our attack, we should build some backup spies and galleys.

Agree with Neil. We should accept all begs/demands from Mansa, Gandhi, Joao.

Now that Joao and Dr. Evil made peace, we need to start planning for the next Holy War vote. When should we go for it? After Gandhi has a Confu city? Whom should we switch into Confu? GK with a gifted desert railway city that has Confu? It might not be a good idea to switch Mansa out of FR.

Deckhand · Nov 21, 2013

PPP T126-134

Objectives:- This turn set: Conquer Karakorum
- also Prepare for a) taking and developing most of Genghis cities and b) capturing Members Only.

Research:- Nationalism at 0, then either Education or Nationalism (which ever Mansa isn’t researching) or Printing Press?
- Espionage on Goldmember, but keep visibility of Joao

Diplo:
- Beg Mansa for 70 gold.
- accept any beg/demand from Gandhi, Joao, Mansa.
- trade these 3 any resources we can spare

City builds [and micro]:
Washington: temple, Confu Missionary (for Gandhi - which city?) [switch citizens to cottages when temple built, work tiles before specialists]
Fish City: library, galleys
Pig City:, temple (whip now), treb
Paradise Gate: temple, HE (No whip), [work riverside gmine over non-riverside gmines].
use Ironside, OS and Beshbalik as whip stations for units. No need for libraries or much tile improvement. They are close to the front and we will need some more Trebs. Granary, Barracks, whip.
Ironside: Barracks (whip), treb
Old Sarai: granary (chopped), Barracks, whip units
Beshbalik: Granary, Barracks, whip units

Units:
Worker (Genghis (in Ironside): mines for Ironside
Worker (Khan (in Beshbalik)): chop Old Sarai and Beshbalik
Worker Bee: send to Old Sarai for chopping
Worker 4: spice plantation

Worker 3: cottages west of Washington then go north to help with infrastructure chopping
Worker 2: cottages west of Washington then stay south to improve tiles in our starting area (e.g.road to stone)
Delay filler cities until after MembersOnly; put them 3W of Fish City and 2W of stone

Triremes: stay on fish

Army: march north to Karakorum
Reserves: Send one xBow to fur by hidden city. Send the other to Beshbalik to join stack
Promotions: upgrade Trebs and Cats to CR2

Tao Missionary: save to be an advanced scout for Confucian missionary for Gandhi.
Spy in TH: wait for something big (e.g. Educ or Natl)to steal
Spy near TH: wait in our borders until needed
Great Spy: infiltrate Trojan Horse before we run next spy mission
Great General - become military instructor in Paradise Gate

Pause conditions:
- Joao or Mansa opens borders with Dr. Evil
- New tempting tech, gold and map trades available
- Approaching Dr. Evil (or Goldmember) stack
- GK and Mansa open borders
- Anything else not previously discussed

Check Every Turn
Diplomatic situation
Trades available

neilmeister · Nov 21, 2013

Looks good to me

Green

shulec · Nov 21, 2013

Green ASAP!

Trystero · Nov 21, 2013

Green from me.

Deckhand · Nov 21, 2013

shulec said:
Green ASAP!

OK, I will take three greens and the ASAP as direction to proceed. I will play now for about 45 minutes, then continue later tonight or in the morning.

Deckhand · Nov 21, 2013

Oh Snap! (is that the expression?)
Played a couple turns, army heading north; near end of AD 375 - and I notice the army in the screen shot. :eek:

(no warning about enemy troops...)
I have another obligation now; will get back to game later tonight. May need to whip in PG before building HE. Oh well, I will upload to get other inputs; it might be dire. :eek:

here are the logs

Spoiler :

BUFFYLOG:

Spoiler :

shulec · Nov 21, 2013

Oh yeah! We got us some action!

Side note: worker building a desert workshop is bad. Send him to cottage FPs for overlap city and then road toward stone.

Did we beg Mansa???

War options
Defense Plan 1.
1. Send 2 units, the spear and longbow from Ironside to PG, upgrade spear to pike.
2a. Send Pig City archer to PG. Upgrade PG's sentry archer and PC archer to longbows.
2b. Send warrior from Washington, upgrade to Pike.
3. Build wall one turn in PG, whip next turn, finish HE, build units. (GK will bombard or city down or die attacking.

Defense Plan 2
1, 2a and 2B as above.
3. Whip Pikes immediately or after HE.

Defense Plan 3
1, 2a and 2B as above.
3. Finish HE, whip pikes.

Diplo Plan 1
Make peace. :cry:

Diplo plan 2
Go all out to take Karakorum in 2 turns, then take cease fire.

Diplo Plan 3
Trade Philo to Mansa for 250g and theocracy. Use spy to convert Mansa to Confucianism. Vote for holy war on Genghis. Vote comes up in two turns, war in 3. (I am unsure if Holy War comes up if in a Holy War, but I assume so)

We really need at test game to see how we can best defend PG.

Defending PG should be easily possible, but will be expensive.

Without testing, the best option seems to be full scale attack of Karakorum in 2 (or 3) turns. Then cease fire

Deckhand · Nov 22, 2013

Good response. I will wait and hear other inputs. Comments on side issues.

shulec said:
Side note: worker building a desert workshop is bad. Send him to cottage FPs for overlap city and then road toward stone. agree, I was surprised by blue circle there - so, you can build watermills in the desert; it's unlikely we would work that tile (maybe at end of game when watermills are good. I will move him.

Did we beg Mansa??? Arghh sorry, no

...

We really need at test game to see how we can best defend PG. I can take a cut at updating it. I will do the GK and Swinger units now.

Defending PG should be easily possible, but will be expensive.

Without testing, the best option seems to be full scale attack of Karakorum in 2 (or 3) turns. Then cease fire I expect his 'phants/cat's to either suicide on us or move into Karakorum

edit: you really think he will stop and reduce the cultural defenses? 3 keshiks can attack next turn - all we can do is whip walls, promote archer to longbow and move archer to city.

Pollina · Nov 22, 2013

Attitude Change: Joao II (Portugal) towards Genghis Khan (Mongolia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

Re-declaring after a cease fire will very likely cause a diplo hit with Joao.

Agree with shulec's defense plans. The Ironside units won't make it to PG in time, as GK will likely block and pillage the road there next turn. We could move the longbow and spear 2 tiles and upgrade the spear, then hope for an unlikely suicide attack or take out/weaken a unit or two. Wall vs. pike in PG needs to be tested. Anything we can build in PC that could reach PG in time? I agree, fending GK off will be expensive. Fortunately, we have some money in the bank.

Deckhand · Nov 22, 2013

Here is an updated test save.
It's not perfect at all, but it is reasonably close. I need to get to sleep.
I didn't switch to Education in when I did in the real save (Mansa went nationalism).
I deleted and added units to make up for different losses and movement differences (e.g. test save didn't have road from Pig City to PG and a worker arrived later)

I didn't set any of the AI scripts - does our testing depend on these being accurate?
Also, units in the fog that could reinforce Karakorum (or southern attack force eek) can only be guessed at and make testing inaccurate.

I probably can't get back to the game until tomorrow night.

Pollina · Nov 22, 2013

I'm at work and won't have access to the game for the next ~10 hours. Will try to run some test when I'm back home.

shulec · Nov 22, 2013

I don't think the AI will split their stack unless they are attacking a unit on an adjacent tile. What happened with the first stack that approached PG? Did the Keshiks break away from the stack?

Pollina · Nov 22, 2013

After re-reading this post from the Kaku SGOTM15 thread I wonder, if we can use our Tao missionary to lure the stack (or at least some of its units) to the tile SW of its current location to win some time. Need to run some tests...

SGOTM 18 - Unusual Suspects

Deity

Procrastination at its finest

Procrastination at its finest

Attachments

Grrrrr... I AM the force!

Deity

Lentils have feelings too

Emperor

Procrastination at its finest

Lentils have feelings too

Grrrrr... I AM the force!

Deity

Procrastination at its finest

Procrastination at its finest

Attachments

Grrrrr... I AM the force!

Procrastination at its finest

Emperor

Procrastination at its finest

Attachments

Emperor

Grrrrr... I AM the force!

Emperor

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