SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

[kossin]

Ok guys, in any case we don't have time to plan this set any longer if we have to play until f- paratroopers. Whatever discussion points remain should be picked either way (whip immediately sheepish for instance) and move Axe or wait a turn.

We're already a month into this and far from the third being played.

 

[Folket]

I take that as a green light then. Will play in a few hours.

 

[soundjata]

Spoiler :

5char

 

[Duckweed]

If anyone still feel nervous about the 4th city safety, I'll take the responsibility for moving immediately. Before Toku settle 3rd city or we settle the 5th city, it's safe, IIRC, in SGOTM16, barbarians started to enter the culture border after T70 when we settled 3rd city.

We're already a month into this and far from the third being played.

I have already thought about rushing in the end for this game. Hopefully we could try to focus on optimizing and being more active from now on.

 

[Doshin]

Barbarian behavior.

 

[Folket]

turn 43
A great prophet was born somewhere

turn 44
the Kong Miao was built.
New worker in Constantinople (whiped)
New archer in Thessalonica

turn 45
worker did not leave Constantinople.
Archer block our forested way west. Walked to hill to get a little more vision.

turn 46
Captured worker SE of Constantinople.
Strange mine out in no mans land.

Spoiler :

Turn 42, 2320 BC: Atisha (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 43, 2280 BC: The Kong Miao has been built in a far away land!

Turn 45, 2200 BC: Case Départ has grown to size 7.
Turn 45, 2200 BC: Case Départ has become unhappy.
Turn 45, 2200 BC: Rice Pudding has grown to size 4.
Turn 45, 2200 BC: Sheepish will grow to size 2 on the next turn.

Turn 46, 2160 BC: Case Départ can hurry Settler for 2⇴ with 6ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 23 turns.
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Sheepish has grown to size 2.
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Sheepish can hurry Granary for 1⇴ with 4ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Tokugawa has no worst enemy.
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Your Axeman 2 (Case Départ) has destroyed a Worker!
Turn 46, 2160 BC: You have captured a Worker
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Rice Pudding will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 46, 2160 BC: You have discovered Currency!

Turn 47, 2120 BC: Rice Pudding has grown to size 5.
Turn 47, 2120 BC: The borders of Golden Sands are about to expand.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Also_Sprach_Sid_SG019_BC2120_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[Folket]

Updated test game.

Not much has changed Tokugawa has 0 money.

We captured a worker as expected. Now Sheepish will have a cottage in time.

I can post a new PPP tomorrow morning and play again on Monday morning or Sunday evening unless someone things there is something new to discuss.

 

[kossin]

Looks great, I'll take a look after diner in a few hours.

 

[Doshin]

Looks good to me. I notice that Asoka has built a second Missionary with his Worker OF. I don't think the first Missionary went to Thessalonica.

The new Worker can begin to road towards Asoka and/or cottage Case Depart. Without testing, my feeling is that Sheepish only needs 1 Worker until the border-pop, so try a few combinations and get a feel for Worker management here.

Another possibility is to use the new Worker to help complete the Quarry sooner. If there is a road network on the Quarry and tile 1SW of Case Depart, a Worker can move directly from the Marble to the unmined riverside hill in Rice Pudding in 2-turns.

Tests will show what works best, OFC.

The mysterious mine could be Iron, but I would prefer to continue exploring than pillage it.

---

Tech: Aesthetics (0%)

Sheepish: whip Monument ASAP. OF to Axe.
Golden Sands: Library after Granary.

Explore as before.

Remember that there are some tiles north of our Scout that are not fogbusted, so if it can move north for a turn (due to the presence of Workers) it should do so.

 

[Doshin]

I don't know whether there is any interest in trying to trade for Mathematics with Tokugawa. We'd have to test, but I think gifting Alphabet would open up a Currency trade.

This will be the quickest way to Axe rush Asoka and get in Tokugawa's good books. Math trades can also be difficult, because the AI love to build the Hanging Gardens.

The obvious downside is that the trade is not very good for us in terms of , and we really should encounter more AI in the next few turns. Trading Currency will also exclude the possibility of a bribe with Tokugawa.

I mention this as a point of debate. I have no strong feelings either way.

 

[kossin]

Looks great. 4 free workers already

I don't see any big issues and Doshin's posts cover everything it seems. Go ahead with next PPP

The barb city fogbusts all the tiles to its south because of the water. (see Golden Sands)

 

[Folket]

Looks great. 4 free workers already

I don't see any big issues and Doshin's posts cover everything it seems. Go ahead with next PPP

The barb city fogbust all the tiles to its south because of the water. (see Golden Sands)

You are welcome to give me a resource or explain the fog busting mechanics. Do barb fogbusts as well as our units?

 

[Folket]

PPP until we have great scientist.

axe 1 will continue W all turns
axe 2 will move back and from the GL hill looking for workers.

turn 47
start monument in Sheepish
worker 4 move to SE of rice
worker 2 move to EEEE of golden sands and build road
Rice Pudding grows and starts to work fresh water
whip settler in Case Départ (work corn, pig, copper, two scientists)
build axeman in Rice pudding for 1 turn.
0% research
worker 5 move to dessert hill SE.
axe 2 move to GL hill SSE
scout stay in place
axe 3 move SE

turn 48
worker 4 start improving rice
worker 2 build road on cows
build axe in Case Départ
build barracks in Rice Pudding
Rice pudding works mine instead of silk.
axe 3 move S
worker 5 move to GL hill
scout move WNW


turn 49
whip barracks in Wice Pudding
worker 3 move to rice
Settler move to ESESE of godlen sands
worker 5 build road for one turn.
scout move WW
Axe 3 will move on hills and forests trying to spawn bust the south.

turn 50
worker 3 build road ESESE of golden sands
worker 2 build road EESE of golden sands
Settler move to cow.
work on archer in Rice Pudding.
worker 5 will move SE and build road for one turn.
From now one scout will move one step at a time to not be killed by barbs. Moving back if there are barbs.

turn 51
settle Amsterdam.
worker 2 and 3 start improving cow.
Rice Pudding finishes archer
Rice pudding start new archer
Case Départ grows and starts to work marble.
Amsterdam works corn.
worker 5 move to E of Sheepish and start cottage.
archer 2 fortifies in Rice Pudding

turn 52
whip monument in Sheepish
worker 1 will move to mine riverside hill in Rice pudding if an other worker has been captured. Otherwise move E and finish the road.
Amsterdam starts working cow
Case Départ finished axe and starts a new axe.
axe 4 move toward Sheepish

turn 53
Golden Sand starts to work rice after granary is finished.
Golden Sands starts library.
Sheepish starts axeman.

worker 4 moves towards W of Golden sands to chop and build farm/cottage
worker 2 and 3 start to farm corn.

 

[Duckweed]

Would be nice if you could post a save or some screenshots.

A couple of things

I don't like much to whip settler in capital since I'd rather save the whip for axes. The early 5th city won't help with our immediate goals -- TGL and taking Asoka's cities. It would only slow down both goals.

T53 sheepish produce archer as we need city police, more important, we could whip axe later.

Edit: more issues

Axe1 should turn to NW and try to stay on forest possible, it's still easy to die if facing a barbarian axe.
Axe3 try to kill the barbarian archer 1st (SE->GH->1S of the sheep) and then try to defense and kill the barbarian axe in the forest tile. Promote it to combat I to attack and then MedicI next.

 

[kossin]

@Duckweed
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/download.php?file=Also_Sprach_Sid_SG019_BC2120_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

@Folket
Barbarian units may not spawn in unfogged tiles or fogbusted tiles. Also, barbarian presence prevents further barbarian spawning (that is, if there's a barb unit, a second one can't pop in the 5x5 square). That also works for tiles uncovered by barb cities.

Yes, they do. Although (as you hinted at) roads/railroads aren't Improvements technically but Routes instead, they do have an AI_pillageValue > 0 which is required to trigger the AI_pillageRange mission.


If only their suicidal tendencies were a bit more stable... I have described the barbs' fluctuating attack courage in post#12 of this thread.

~~~~~~~~~~~~


A quick tip on fogbusting:

I'm not sure how many of you fellow civfanatics know about the GlobalDefines value MIN_BARBARIAN_STARTING_DISTANCE = 2 and already exploit it. It means that new barbarian units are not allowed to spawn within a 2 tile radius of ANY existing unit (including other barb units) on the map. This rule allows very efficient "fogbusting" on smaller landmasses. Here is an example (spoiler for current LHC Huayna Capac checkpoint 1):

Spoiler :

2 Quechuas and 1 Scout are all I need to keep my lands barb-free . It is not required to have active vision for all the tiles (the fog doesn't matter). I've changed the Dotmap-function of BUG to display the no-spawn areas for my three units.

Note that barb cities CAN appear 2 tiles away from my units if the tile is in the fog though.

More precisely:

It means that new barbarian units are not allowed to spawn within a 2 tile radius of ANY existing unit (including other barb units) on the map.

I'll post a s/s in a few minutes.

 

[Duckweed]

^ what I asked was save or screenshot for his PPP.

 

[Folket]

Cottage in Sheepish is planed to be completed 1 turn before size 2 and a second one on size 3.

Case Départ is set to complete a axeman when growing into unhappiness on size 7.

Rice Pudding is setup to whip axeman and produce one more with overflow.

Farm in Golden sands just completed when granary is finished.

Amsterdam will have 30 hammer into the granary when growing to size 3. Will have cottage when back to size 3.

 

[kossin]

Oh, I hadn't seen the ppp!

I'll check later, going to run some errands for the coming week.

 

[kossin]

What's the planned use of first GS? If it's for a bulb, then there's no rush and I'm fine with whipping CaseDepart. If we're looking for an Academy, then we can slow down the settler a bit and maybe spend some time improving RicePudding/GoldenSands some more.

It's true that this city does not bring that much (no happy, too late for axe rush, commerce drag) so I don't feel compelled to get it out as early as possible in a beaker game pre-mathematics and CoL.
~~~~

I've gone through the micro and it seems sound but I'd like the team to answer to the above.

Tokugawa will only trade a tech if everyone else knows it, other than the exceptions (Alphabet, Monarchy for instance). We're also not getting him Friendly any time soon so I'm not interested in trying to get Mathematics from him.

 

[Doshin]

I can't test or check the micro just now. So just my thoughts, FWIW.

The first GS is meant to build an Academy, surely? These always pay back in a capital that will receive Oxford, and we will have an abundance of GSs later from TGL. I also see no reason to bulb techs early, unless you want to consider Philosophy (the AI usually get this for the human, though).

I avoided whipping the Settler in my test runs, so I have little experience with settling City #5 so early. What might work best is to whip the Settler, but delay this as long as possible (EDIT: ~64H ~54H) to maximize OF.

This could also help us avoid city screens that look like this:

Spoiler :

We're working a lot of weak tiles for the sake of an early Axe.

To add to the above, on T54, with a Library and Academy, the capital should really be working the FPs.

Remember that 2–pop Axe whips are impossible in the capital, thanks to the Copper, and that we have happiness issues here, thanks to all the food. So a judicious 2–pop whip of a Settler may be the best way to churn out Axemen.

---

Edit: thanks, kossin, for correcting my fog-busting advice and torpedoing my Mathematics idea.