SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

[soundjata]

Seeing that all AIs and barbs have access to early wonders, it would be nice to test what their behavior will be in this context.
- How many will start a wonder (and complete it) without building a first settler?
- How earl can we expect The Oracle to go?

A quick way to get The Oracle would be a 3 pop whip into our first settler, and settling on the pre-roaded marble on the same turn= instant 60+ hammers into T.O.

In this game we need to REX, research fast (cottages in capitol, GS farm with TGL and NE) and scout well and early, in order to know what challenges lay ahead.

Aggressive AIs is probably a nerf to the AIs research capabilities.

Agree with the practicality of Cuirassier rush but, do we have horses and iron

 

[Duckweed]

I'm uncertain about worker stealing. We will be locked into a war for a long time and chances are very good all AI will join into the war.

The value of early free workers is quite big, plus we have to weaken our neighbors which save us more room and easy to kill them with cats or even swords.

Because there are obviously two corporations that are viable for victory, and, although it is quicker to research Medicine than Rocketry, I did/do not know by how much.

I have not studied the choices of corporations deeply, but from my intuition, if we could get a GE, then mining could be a good choice since the railroad network helps the conquering. Sushi would be a better choice due to the easy GM, and the biology farm.

Seeing that all AIs and barbs have access to early wonders, it would be nice to test what their behavior will be in this context.
- How many will start a wonder (and complete it) without building a first settler?

Pretty sure it's 0.

- How earl can we expect The Oracle to go?
Yes. that's something needs tests.

A quick way to get The Oracle would be a 3 pop whip into our first settler, and settling on the pre-roaded marble on the same turn= instant 60+ hammers into T.O.
I'm very temped to settle 2S to include the Pig and Marble in BFC. but need to locate our position after getting the save file. It's better than Oracle is built in 2nd city than capital to avoid pollute the GS farm.

In this game we need to REX, research fast (cottages in capitol, GS farm with TGL and NE) and scout well and early, in order to know what challenges lay ahead.

Aggressive AIs is probably a nerf to the AIs research capabilities.

Agree with the practicality of Cuirassier rush but, do we have horses and iron

They are probably removed in our starting area, but no doubt will exist around our neighbors.

 

[soundjata]

Oracle > Construction is an option

 

[kossin]

Oracle>Currency is probably better, I think this is probably a beaker race.

I can run some automated games for 75 turns to get an idea on Wonder dates.

 

[kossin]

Seems Currency is not reliable. We still need Medi/Poly>PH>Math/Alpha

I gave AIs all ancient techs but this shouldn't change much.

Oracle completion, all different games.
2280BC [43]
2320BC [42]
2520BC [37]
2520BC [37]
1960BC [51]
2600BC [35]
etc...

 

[Doshin]

^^^^ kossin, nice testing. Was that with the aggressive AI setting enabled?

CoLs is another good target, since it provides earlier access to CS and I find that taking this tends to slow the AI's Liberalism dates. Also, it can provide free border pops in several cities and/or make one AI very unpopular (if we convert them quickly enough).

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A quick way to get The Oracle would be a 3 pop whip into our first settler, and settling on the pre-roaded marble on the same turn= instant 60+ hammers into T.O.

This is a nice idea, but since we are Imperialistic, 3-pop Settler whips are very difficult. We need to grow to size 6 and then invest < 10H into the build.

I personally think it's a low priority, but Stonehenge would provide +1 per city and lots of free border pops. Should we look into AI build dates for this too?

Without testing, I presently envisage the early build order as being something like: Granary (chop & 1-pop whip) ---> Axeman (partial) ---> Settler (whip) ----> Axeman (OF/complete).

 

[kossin]

Yes, same settings as we know.

SH went into early T30s as I recall.

 

[Folket]

I have not studied the choices of corporations deeply, but from my intuition, if we could get a GE, then mining could be a good choice since the railroad network helps the conquering. Sushi would be a better choice due to the easy GM, and the biology farm.

I do not like mining inc as it is a lot of resources and we won't know if it is feasible before we see coal. With some unlucky coal spots we could be force to trip domination.

 

[Folket]

I think we should not get distracted by the shiny wonders. the AI will be confused by all the options and build buildings/wonders when it should be building settlers/workers. If we just focus on economy and expansion we will leave the AI far behind.

The great library is a good wonder as it will go much later then the wonders the AI can build from the very beginning.

 

[soundjata]

The value of early free workers is quite big, plus we have to weaken our neighbors which save us more room and easy to kill them with cats or even swords.

Agreed, the simultaneous chocking of Genghis and Jao by TSS was brilliant last game.

Also, to compensate the loss of beakers due to no trade route with our neighbors, we want to make a decisive war quickly and extort some. (Catapults )

I'm very temped to settle 2S to include the Pig and Marble in BFC. but need to locate our position after getting the save file. It's better than Oracle is built in 2nd city than capital to avoid pollute the GS farm.

If the early game is a beaker race (for Oracle Slingshot) rather than a production race, then SIP is better than 2S as we gain a turn and a possible cottage on the irrigated sugar.
We are not really planning to work the Marble quarry are we?

SIP has a good commerce potential after calendar, which means our palace wouldn't need to be moved.
This makes me think of Calendar as a potential Oracle target.

On GP pollution, the capitol does not have to be our main GP farm I think.

 

[soundjata]

I think we should not get distracted by the shiny wonders. the AI will be confused by all the options and build buildings/wonders when it should be building settlers/workers. If we just focus on economy and expansion we will leave the AI far behind.

The great library is a good wonder as it will go much later then the wonders the AI can build from the very beginning.

MoM is a nice distraction as well. This game could be won in < 150 turns.
With Taj Mahal, and 3 golden ages triggered by great people (6 of them in total), we can be in a golden age from T100 to T148

Apart from that, let's have the AI work on the early wonders and under-expand, yes.
When pocket money comes lacking, we could maybe, I mean

Spoiler :

fail gold a little?

 

[Folket]

With massive early expansion hanging gardens is also an option.

I think any wonder two or more techs away are fine. By that time we will have other productive cities.

 

[soundjata]

With massive early expansion hanging gardens is also an option.

I think any wonder two or more techs away are fine. By that time we will have other productive cities.

On the other hand, The Oracle is quite an investment, with the necessity of researching Priesthood that every AI already has... We'll see through tests whether we can aim at getting it at a reasonably early date, without harming our REXing and Chocking capacity!

The Hanging garden is very expensive (not industrious, probably no stone, 200 hammer aqueduct), most surely not worth the extra population

 

[Folket]

Researching alphabet might be a good choice. We can probably trade for priesthood.

 

[soundjata]

Researching alphabet might be a good choice. We can probably trade for priesthood.

Yes provided we possess trade partners
Early exploration and the revealing of other civilizations will be crucial.

 

[Duckweed]

If the early game is a beaker race (for Oracle Slingshot) rather than a production race, then SIP is better than 2S as we gain a turn and a possible cottage on the irrigated sugar.

Yes, SIP gives us a better commercial capital. Not necessary gain 1 turn since we need 1 turn to adopt slavery. The major benefit of 2S come from the Pig which gives faster growth and hence everything else, plus that we could improve marble before 2nd city.

We are not really planning to work the Marble quarry are we?

SIP has a good commerce potential after calendar, which means our palace wouldn't need to be moved.

There's rarely a case good to move palace, exception usually come from conquered city.

This makes me think of Calendar as a potential Oracle target.

On GP pollution, the capitol does not have to be our main GP farm I think.

Our major GP farm has to be capital because capital is the best site to build TGL.

 

[Doshin]

2S loses 3 from river-tiles for +3/2/1 for a long time (Pig = +3F; +2F at size 4). Most of those riverside tiles won't be worked for a long time... just the Sugar(s).

Since the Pigs are the strongest tile in the opening screenshot, and we can improve them already, this seems attractive to me. However, Calendar offsets the strength of the Pigs (taking the food advantage from +3F to +1 to -2F), and so to SIP will prove stronger in the long-term, both in terms of commerce and food.

The Pigs food may also prove superfluous for the opening ~12 turns, since we will lack a Granary.

Two factors then seem important: (1) when can we build the first Settler? If we can produce this at about the same turn in either location, then I'd prefer to SIP and put our second city 1W of the Pigs; (2) can we improve the Marble without settling the capital 2S? A second city 1W of the Pigs will not provide access, and I am loathe to waste 75H on the Oracle with Marble so readily available. This makes 2S seem superior, I believe.

 

[Duckweed]

Seems Currency is not reliable. We still need Medi/Poly>PH>Math/Alpha

I gave AIs all ancient techs but this shouldn't change much.

Oracle completion, all different games.
2280BC [43]
2320BC [42]
2520BC [37]
2520BC [37]
1960BC [51]
2600BC [35]
etc...

I ran a test last night until settler ready at T25, Alpha will be available ~T35. If we could trade PH, it's possible to Oracle Currency. Otherwise Aes would be a good choice since it's the fastest way to have TGL.

 

[pomthom]

What up y'all, just came back from the UK and ready to get on this.

Will read/comment tomorrow.


EDIT: include test game for OP reference

 

[kossin]

The issues with Alphabet first are
[1] we need trade partners
[2] we need to trade for Meditation/Polytheism

The first one shouldn't be a big issue unless there's some background shenanigans.
The second might be more problematic since when the religion is founded, AIs don't necessarily complete the tech.