SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

[pomthom]

T10 Pause since Oracle is gone.

T10....... An AI must have settled on Marble, maybe a Marble hill (I think that would explain the T1 production demographics). Still, very very strange. I made a LOT of tests and none had anything close to that behaviour.

What are the demos now? Can you upload or post the save?

Should we pillage the Pigs?

AI will soon research Alphabet on our behalf.

I'm really not sure about this, AIs prioritize IW/CoL after the ancient rel techs. Alpha was chosen very rarely in my test runs, and not nearly as quickly as we'd like in any case.

Then again, I thought T34 was a safe Oracle date

Moreover, Alphabet will (likely) only open up Meditation/Polytheism, Priesthood, and Iron Working, none of which we need.

True. But although we don't need Iron Working, it would still be nice to have. Taking Constantinople with Swords would be much easier if we can grab Iron.

EDIT: although we'd have to wait for IW probably, none of my runs got AIs trading IW @T33...

The main advantage is that it will enable a bribe on Asoka.

I also like that we can research Currency after that.

However, beelining Aesthetics will greatly increase the likelihood that we will be the first to Music, even if we need to self-tech Polytheism.

I see the value of unlocking TGL/NE higher than beelining to Music... then again the free GA vs earlier Civil Service could be interesting since we're not going for
the standard Bureau cap.

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Not too fond of Maths because we already have plenty of prod and I'd rather prioritize economy. But as soundjata pointed out, Math opens up Calendar...


So yeah my vote goes to finishing Alpha.

 

[Duckweed]

Nice start. Losing the Oracle is not the worst thing, provided that it affects all the teams. I spy a Horse near Asoka. That's the only risk to our Woodsman II Axe adventures.

I think he is going to settle the horse city with the clam, which needs a border pop to connect the horse, impossible.

The tech issue is difficult because I assume that, unlike SGOTM 17, we are not playing in semi-isolation. This means that another AI will soon research Alphabet on our behalf. Moreover, Alphabet will (likely) only open up Meditation/Polytheism, Priesthood, and Iron Working, none of which we need. The main advantage is that it will enable a bribe on Asoka.

Was a religious tech taken with The Oracle? The AI can get confused by strange settings. In SGOTM 18, Mansa bulbed Monotheism with a Great Prophet.

Should be Col, we will see it next turn.

If we research Aesthetics, we will most likely need to self-tech Polytheism. It is unlikely that the AI will go to Alphabet before IW (Willem, Darius, and Elizabeth do, in my experience). However, beelining Aesthetics will greatly increase the likelihood that we will be the first to Music, even if we need to self-tech Polytheism.

At the moment I am inclined to switch to Aesthetics, but I'll think it over tonight. Alpha offers limited backfilling and the potential for bribes. Mathematics is another possibility, but the boost of +50% chops is lessened thanks to our Worker farm (Asoka) and the Imperialistic trait (easy Settler whips).

I like Math first for the better chops.
Chopping a library and assigning a couple of scientists seems like a good source of early beakers.

We could 3 pop whip the library, I prefer to save trees in capital for wonders

We could maybe go Math>Aesthetics and be on-time for the alpha trade?

What is the best AI BPT currently?
Is beelining The Great Library better than beelining Calendar?

Yes, TGL >> Calendar in my mind.

T10....... An AI must have settled on Marble, maybe a Marble hill (I think that would explain the T1 production demographics). Still, very very strange. I made a LOT of tests and none had anything close to that behaviour.

The only reason was that the map maker coded an AI to build Oracle. This does not surprise me, I don't expect too much from the designer.

What are the demos now? Can you upload or post the save?

Will do tonight, although I usually don't like to upload too often in the opening.

Should we pillage the Pigs?

No need, also it's dangerous since it's almost the time when his 1st attacking archer is out, who is going to attack when our warrior is not on hill forest tile.

I'm really not sure about this, AIs prioritize IW/CoL after the ancient rel techs. Alpha was chosen very rarely in my test runs, and not nearly as quickly as we'd like in any case.

True, only AI like Toku prioritized Alpha if he already has Horse/Copper.

Then again, I thought T34 was a safe Oracle date

I also like that we can research Currency after that.

I see the value of unlocking TGL/NE higher than beelining to Music... then again the free GA vs earlier Civil Service could be interesting since we're not going for
the standard Bureau cap.

+1

Not too fond of Maths because we already have plenty of prod and I'd rather prioritize economy. Then again, as soundjata pointed out, Math opens up Calendar.

So yeah my vote goes to finishing Alpha.

I might agree with Alpha since it leads to Currency and give us the chance of bribing, but I could change my mind if I see strong argument of other choices.

Any suggestions about my micro of the captured worker?

 

[kossin]

You can't code the AI do build things, unless you pre-settle the city and assign the build yourself.

We know no cities were pre-settled so either:

1) some AI got pre-improved tiles
2) some AI got free GPs and used to rush Oracle

Either way it leaves place to randomness and a team could be lucky and have that AI not decide to build Oracle for long enough.

No idea on captured worker - your proposed micro seems to make sense as we want the roads to speed up city #2 anyway.

 

[pomthom]

Trying some micro out for 2nd Worker. Where do we want city 2? On the non-riverside Sugar? 1N of it? There's also the weaker 1SW of Rice, that constitutes a nice choke point and still leaves room to backfill on the Sugar


Improving Marble is 6 worker turns right?

 

[pomthom]

We know no cities were pre-settled so either:

1) some AI got pre-improved tiles
2) some AI got free GPs and used to rush Oracle

Or simply an AI sitting on a Marble hill (free GE would have given an earlier Oracle I think)

Turn 1 demo screen indicated an AI with 6H of prod. It could easily be a 3H city tile +100% from Marble if building the Oracle... Put a chop or a whip in there and you get a T10 Oracle

 

[pomthom]

Since the first worker can improve the Corn just in time for cap to regrow to size 3, I think the best short term micro improvement from stolen Worker would be to road in the direction of Asoka and/or city 2 to accelerate our dudes/connect city


If we intend to settle on the non-riverside Sugar, this works well:

Turn Worker 1 Worker 2 Settler Comment
T11 Improves Copper (3/4) Moves to hill 2E1S
T12 Improves Copper (4/4) Moves to forest 2S (ie. 2N1W of BFC Corn)
T13 Moves 1W, improves road (1/2) and cancel Improves road (1/2)
T14 Moves to Corn, improves (1/5) and cancel Improves road (2/2)
T15 Moves 1E, improves road (2/2) Moves 1SE, improves road (1/2)
T16 Moves to Corn, improves (2/5) Improves road (2/2)
T17 Improves Corn (3/5) Moves to Corn, improves road (1/2) Moves 2N
T18 Improves Corn (4/5) Improves road (2/2) Moves 2N and settles BAM: city settled 1 turn sooner and is connected
T19 Improves Corn (5/5) Moves 2N1W, chops (1/3) and cancel Corn improved just in time for size 3

 

[kossin]

Or simply an AI sitting on a Marble hill (free GE would have given an earlier Oracle I think)

Turn 1 demo screen indicated an AI with 6H of prod. It could easily be a 3H city tile +100% from Marble if building the Oracle... Put a chop or a whip in there and you get a T10 Oracle

Not necessarily, it might just mean AI started it on T10. I don't think I've ever seen AI start off with a WWonder.

 

[Duckweed]

@pomthom

Settler can move to 3N1E due to the road 1W of the copper.

Yes, Sugar site is the 2nd city in my mind.

@kossin

I'm not sure as I'm not the GOTM staffs, but it's not difficult to add a line to tell an AI the 1st build.

Giving a GE is just too random since there are other wonders to be chosen.

 

[pomthom]

Just tested with an IND AI sitting on a Marble hill, and 2 out of 6 times he started with the Oracle... so apparently it's possible for them to start with a WW...

That also means that it's RNG dependent and that we might get screwed VS other teams (however the other 4 out of 6 tries he built the Oracle ~T27 so it would still be hard to beat)

 

[pomthom]

@pomthom

Settler can move to 3N1E due to the road 1W of the copper.

Yes, Sugar site is the 2nd city in my mind.

Ah yes. That also means that my Corn road is not necessary to connect the cities (although might be good for +2 health)

 

[Duckweed]

I'm still more inclining to that there's a way to tell AI the 1st build, it's not a disaster design then.

 

[Doshin]

Honestly, I could go either way with Aesthetics and Alphabet. Since we attacked Asoka, he will struggle to spread Buddhism, so he will be targeted by another AI sooner or later. I also don't see a desperate need for Iron Working, since I distrust Swords attacking a capital/holy city without siege. However, Alphabet does let us build research and will save ~200 if we can trade for Polytheism.

We seem to lack above all, especially if we farm the riverside Sugar. The Gold is awkwardly placed. Will you explore the southern river with the new Warrior? The third city needs to contribute to our BPT, for sure.

Since Alpha will save commerce on Polytheism, and let us convert hammers into beakers, I think I'd slightly prefer to stick with the current tech path. But if the UP player feels strongly in favor of Aesthetics, I am happy to go with his inclination.

Build order in city #2... Granary ---> Monument?

 

[Duckweed]

^I will hand over the game to pomthom by T17 so that we could discuss about the exact site of next cities and micros then.

Regarding the new warrior, I am going to let it stay as city police since we need it soon and it's dangerous outside, we could let the axe explore a little bit while try to farm some exp from barbarians.
Edit: the forest GH south is safe, so I'll the new warrior go there.

 

[Duckweed]

Done playing

Game Log

Spoiler :

Turn 0, 4000 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: Trumpster adopts Slavery!
Turn 0, 4000 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 1, 3960 BC: Amsterdam has been founded.

Turn 5, 3800 BC: The borders of Amsterdam have expanded!

Turn 7, 3720 BC: You have declared war on Asoka!

Turn 8, 3680 BC: Buddhism has been founded in Constantinople!

Turn 9, 3640 BC: You have constructed a Granary in Amsterdam. Work has now begun on a Settler.
Turn 9, 3640 BC: Asoka converts to Buddhism!
Turn 9, 3640 BC: Confucianism has been founded in a distant land!
Turn 9, 3640 BC: The Oracle has been built in a far away land!

Turn 11, 3560 BC: Hinduism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 14, 3440 BC: You have trained a Warrior in Amsterdam. Work has now begun on a Settler.

Turn 16, 3360 BC: Amsterdam has grown to size 4.
Turn 16, 3360 BC: Amsterdam can hurry Axeman for 1⇴ with 11ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 13 turns.
Turn 16, 3360 BC: You have trained a Settler in Amsterdam. Work has now begun on a Axeman.

Turn 17, 3320 BC: Amsterdam can hurry Axeman for 1⇴ with 8ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 22 turns.

Report

Land Overview

South. Asoka produced a new worker

Spoiler :

North

Spoiler :

Info screen

Spoiler :

Religion, the Oracle owner took CoL

Spoiler :

Updating the test file from scratch.
Edit: The test file was attached, would be nice if someone could double check the tiles.

 

[kossin]

Well, it could also be Monotheism as Choose Religions is on.

Kinda odd that Medi/Poly gone lead to Budd/Hindu. I'll check save later.

 

[Doshin]

Nice set.

Gandhi is the only AI who favors Hinduism, and Wang Kong the only AI who favors Confucianism. But that doesn't mean much, because a bunch of leaders have no favorite religions at all. I'm guessing they pick randomly.

 

[kossin]

FWIW, steal gold mission is 14EP in real game and test game (=4 gold for Asoka).

Test looks fine overall, forest missing 1S of Asoka and we should have 200 gold on hand. Looked quickly ...

 

[pomthom]

Nice set

Player Position
Duckweed ..Just played..
pomthom ....... Up! .......
Doshin ....On deck....
Folket
kossin
soundjata

I chose alphabetical order after my set since no one voiced a preference. If you do have one, speak now or forever hold your peace yo!


I'll might post a first PPP tonight, but I'll probably throw in a bunch of questions/issues in the meantime.

 

[pomthom]

City dotmapping - we're about to settle our first dude, and we'll probably REX quite quickly to 4/5 cities so we need to start choosing our spots (it's likely we'll settle cities 2&3 in the next turnset). I think there's a general consensus on settling City 2 on the non-riverside Sugar. Any dissident opinions?


Demographics - it doesn't seem like the AIs were buffed too much. We've go 1 AI doing well -wise (a financial civ working a Gold mine or something like that), 1 AI with great production (12H @T17 is quite a bit) and 1 AI with great food (probably Asoka). Soldier counts are normal.


Grand Strategy - detailing our grand strategy is a bit early but it might be good just to agree on the main points that have been discussed so far:

• War game with a mounted units breakout (Cuirs probably) to grab all Corp resources
• Choose which Corp to aim at before breakout, AFAIC: Sushi or Aluminium (if we consider Aluminium Inc, Cavs breakout might be smarter because it gives us time to tech Steam Power)
• Prioritize exploration (Paper), if possible reveal entire map before breakout
• Tech Democracy relatively early, just after MTrad maybe? Complete hidden objective
• Lib something along the way to our chosen Corp tech
• Win by Dom, Conquest or Diplo (AP/UN)

Semi-isolation?? - I'm starting to get a bit concerned about meeting no one else by T17... although it's true we are on the edge of the map. Actually, having met no one else and seeing Asoka on the equator and how close he is, I wonder if we're not all ligned up on the equator accros the map...
Anyway, at what point should we start getting worried? (T30?)



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We seem to lack above all, especially if we farm the riverside Sugar. The Gold is awkwardly placed. Will you explore the southern river with the new Warrior? The third city needs to contribute to our BPT, for sure.

I agree. Perhaps 1N of Gold for city #3? Working the mined Gold while building a Monument. It's a bit far but we have some cash.

Well, it could also be Monotheism as Choose Religions is on.

Ya but Confu was second religion to go and we're sure Buddhism was founded by Meditation on T8 (cause no AI can tech Poly in 8 turns without pre-improved commerce tiles, and Asoka don't have none). That means T11 is Poly/Hindu, hence Mono was not available on T9 when Oracle was built.

 

[pomthom]

Other crucial issues

Candy-A.S.S. colour

I don't like our colour in the SGOTM Progress Page. Just wanted to complain about the alphabetical RNG of the SGOTM site


City names

"Amsterdam" will not do . I suggest "Go" instead because that's the place where it all starts when playing Monopoly

Shall we pick names from the streets of the original Atlantic City monopoly game for our settled cities??