SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
My one very quick run last night suggested that it will be a hard to balance growth and production in the capital with unhappiness. This will be fine after a 3-pop whip of a Library, but a Library is less pressing than Workers, Settlers, and Axemen at the moment (IMO).
At this point, I think I'd prefer 1W of the Wheat for city #3, since this can take the Pigs from the capital and do away with some growth/unhappy issues due to the excess food.
The Gold city is another good alternative. But (without testing) I fear that it is a little too far away at the moment. It is quite exposed to barbarians, and the maintenance + lack of trade routes will offset the benefit of the Gold commerce. It is, however, a good candidate for a fourth city, once we get some Workers roading in that direction.
Worker management is tricky, especially if city #3 is settled by the Wheat (meaning we have to move 1 or 2 Workers from North to South). Hopefully we can steal some more Workers from our friend Asoka.
At this point, I think I'd prefer 1W of the Wheat for city #3, since this can take the Pigs from the capital and do away with some growth/unhappy issues due to the excess food.
The Gold city is another good alternative. But (without testing) I fear that it is a little too far away at the moment. It is quite exposed to barbarians, and the maintenance + lack of trade routes will offset the benefit of the Gold commerce. It is, however, a good candidate for a fourth city, once we get some Workers roading in that direction.
Worker management is tricky, especially if city #3 is settled by the Wheat (meaning we have to move 1 or 2 Workers from North to South). Hopefully we can steal some more Workers from our friend Asoka.
City dotmapping - we're about to settle our first dude, and we'll probably REX quite quickly to 4/5 cities so we need to start choosing our spots (it's likely we'll settle cities 2&3 in the next turnset). I think there's a general consensus on settling City 2 on the non-riverside Sugar. Any dissident opinions?
I marked my preferred city sites on the test game. On top of Sugar as 2nd, 1N of the sugar might be an option. Gold as 3rd, as the same reasons stated in K-mod SG.
Semi-isolation?? - I'm starting to get a bit concerned about meeting no one else by T17... although it's true we are on the edge of the map. Actually, having met no one else and seeing Asoka on the equator and how close he is, I wonder if we're not all ligned up on the equator accros the map...
Anyway, at what point should we start getting worried? (T30?)
Our exploration is very limited until now since I let the scout escort the stolen worker and guard the sugar site. Next we could let the warrior in Asoka's territory to scout west. We could let Asoka expand to south.
Ya but Confu was second religion to go and we're sure Buddhism was founded by Meditation on T8 (cause no AI can tech Poly in 8 turns without pre-improved commerce tiles, and Asoka don't have none). That means T11 is Poly/Hindu, hence Mono was not available on T9 when Oracle was built.
The date of Confu and Oracle was the same, usually religion date would be 1 turn slower than Oracle.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Sure about that? I always saw religions founded on same date as tech... Oracle included
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I just came back from my mother's birthday and... well I'm too drunk to make a PPP
Or maybe I would come up with a brilliant new civ philosophy that would revolutionize everything anyone knows about the game...
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
I've been working on some micro this morning and Doshin has a point, we are facing 2 micro problems: worker turns and happiness management.
Quick question: is it reasonable to slow build a Worker @ size 4 working all improved Pigs + Copper + Corn + Marble to cool-off a few turns from whip anger? I know we have our friend Asoka but we still need to farm some XP etc...
Don't have access to the game and I have a memory loss: Marble quarry is+2
+2
right? 
-> +1 +2
Quick question: is it reasonable to slow build a Worker @ size 4 working all improved Pigs + Copper + Corn + Marble to cool-off a few turns from whip anger? I know we have our friend Asoka but we still need to farm some XP etc...
Don't have access to the game and I have a memory loss: Marble quarry is
+2-> +1
+2
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Slow building the Worker would imply 4 turns of stalled growth...
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
FYI I checked Duckweed's test game and made a few corrections, see attachment
I'll post some stuff this evening
I'll post some stuff this evening
2nd one, most resources tiles give 6 yield.I've been working on some micro this morning and Doshin has a point, we are facing 2 micro problems: worker turns and happiness management.
Quick question: is it reasonable to slow build a Worker @ size 4 working all improved Pigs + Copper + Corn + Marble to cool-off a few turns from whip anger? I know we have our friend Asoka but we still need to farm some XP etc...
Only stop whipping when we are going to lose the happy citizens who can work on great resource tiles (Pig+copper+Corn) Plus 1 (to allow grow to whip), so maintaining 4 happy citizens is enough.
Don't have access to the game and I have a memory loss: Marble quarry is+2right?
-> +1
Don't expect to steal new workers before having a Woodman II axe or Asoka expands to 2nd city. The next build in capital would be a worker->settler while growing on axes.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Alright so it's ok to whip away the improved Marble tile?
Assuming we settle city #3 1N of Gold before road connection, Settler > Worker might work instead of Worker > Settler. We work the Gold much sooner but I need to make the Worker micro right...
Assuming we settle city #3 1N of Gold before road connection, Settler > Worker might work instead of Worker > Settler. We work the Gold much sooner but I need to make the Worker micro right...
Commerce is much less important now due to the gone of Oracle, so the marble improvement can be delayed. There are so many road turns needed to the gold site, plus chopping a forest in sugar site and cottage the riverside sugar tile, 3 workers are still a bit short.
One thing you need to decide is that do we want to work the Corn this turn (delay the Axe)? Otherwise, switch them to improve the FP cottage 1st.
One thing you need to decide is that do we want to work the Corn this turn (delay the Axe)? Otherwise, switch them to improve the FP cottage 1st.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Why not farm the riverside Sugar?
In my mind I'd rather work the Corn this turn and grow to size 3 immediately, even if it delays the Axe by 1 turn. It's a +8
VS -4 -1 trade (-1 or 2 for improving the FP later), and I don't see the extra turn with the Axe making up for the loss.So do we plan to road to Gold site before settling it? If yes then next build is definitely Worker, otherwise I think Settler first to work the Gold ASAP
I'd farm the riverside Sugar too, because, for ~20 turns, that will be the only tile in our second city that offers more than 3F, assuming that we build/whip a Monument after the Granary.
Working the Corn for two turns is worth +6F–3 –4H –1C. It is difficult to argue against this, but our need for barb defense and unhappiness may increase the value of the early hammers.
Stagnating on food means that 1F = 1H, so it's not a great exchange, but even so, 6F > 5H/C with careful whip/OF management.
Worker ----> Settler is likely necessary. The third city will be a drain before the Gold is mined, so really there need to be 2 Workers in place. Moving that far NW takes time and Worker turns, and the Sugar site needs improvements of its own too (i.e. it can't be abandoned entirely, hence the need for a 3rd Worker).
Before you settle city #3, try to move one Worker onto the Gold and finish a road, with another Worker 1SE of that hill. That way only one turn is lost moving a Worker onto the hill, and two Workers will be in place to mine the Gold immediately upon settling.
I'll try and test after you post a PPP. I find it easier to test with another run with which to compare.
Working the Corn for two turns is worth +6F
Stagnating on food means that 1F = 1H, so it's not a great exchange, but even so, 6F > 5H/C with careful whip/OF management.
Worker ----> Settler is likely necessary. The third city will be a drain before the Gold is mined, so really there need to be 2 Workers in place. Moving that far NW takes time and Worker turns, and the Sugar site needs improvements of its own too (i.e. it can't be abandoned entirely, hence the need for a 3rd Worker).
Before you settle city #3, try to move one Worker onto the Gold and finish a road, with another Worker 1SE of that hill. That way only one turn is lost moving a Worker onto the hill, and two Workers will be in place to mine the Gold immediately upon settling.
I'll try and test after you post a PPP. I find it easier to test with another run with which to compare.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Working the Corn now means we grow next turn. So that's 1*Corn + 1*Corn/Copper VS 1*Copper + 1*Copper. In 2 turns we will have traded 1 turn of Copper for 2 turns of Corn right? So +8H -4H -1C
...and I'm sensing I'm looking things the wrong way...
EDIT: ok I saw you edited to 4H and I guess you're taking 2F away for the earlier 3rd citizen... thank you sir!
In the test game we have animals way after our first Axe comes out...
As for happiness, I'd rather call back the southern Warrior than delay the Axe farming some XP.
No problemI'll try and test after you post a PPP. I find it easier to test with another run with which to compare.
I edited/corrected the hammer total (but I see you've realized this). Unirrigated Corn offers +3F, the Grassland Copper is food neutral.Wuuut? I don't get your calculation
Working the Corn now means we grow next turn. So that's 1*Corn + 1*Corn/Copper VS 1*Copper + 1*Copper. In 2 turns we will have traded 1 turn of Copper for 2 turns of Corn right? So +8H -4H -1C
Yes, the Warrior needs to go back in time to prevent unhappiness for sure.In the test game we have animals way after our first Axe comes out...
As for happiness, I'd rather call back the southern Warrior than delay the Axe farming some XP.
We need 3 Axemen soon. The first Axeman should try to hit 4XP (is it 4?) ASAP and go farm Workers. After that, at least one Axeman will be needed in the north and one towards the south.
It would be nice to explore with our Scout, but he is doing a good job spawn busting and Wolves/Panthers can easily snipe our Workers as they road towards the Gold, if we're not careful.
Why not farm the riverside Sugar?
If we settle 1N of the sugar, I'll make this city as a great helper for REXing, otherwise, a commercial city in my mind. This city won't contribute to REXing at least until 5th city and there's really no very good site for 5th.
In my mind I'd rather work the Corn this turn and grow to size 3 immediately, even if it delays the Axe by 1 turn. It's a +8
Not only 1 turn delay if you run the test further. I know that Working Corn is better in math, but the value of early axe is unpredictable.
So do we plan to road to Gold site before settling it? If yes then next build is definitely Worker, otherwise I think Settler first to work the Gold ASAP
Better to since those roads also speedup the settler movement and save the worker turns as well.
Edit: I just ran a test to 2 turns before gold city in favor of hammers (FP cottage before Corn). The good thing is that the axe could protect the workers easily. Could be optimized obviously since worker turns are 2 turns ahead which could be used somewhere else. I'd like to see how Corn 1st get going.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
OK y'all it's late here so I'm not going to write a novel out of this thang and simply give you the detailed micro (cause I got mah bad-ASS micro spreadsheet yo). You can witness from my vocabulary that it is late indeed...
I tested up until the Gold was online (T33). My run seems weaker than kossin's quick-test-without-even-trying, it's depressing. :suicide:
Stats/info:
T33 screenshots:
The detailed micro: (tried to make it as clear as possible)
See all y'all tomorrow!
I tested up until the Gold was online (T33). My run seems weaker than kossin's quick-test-without-even-trying, it's depressing. :suicide:
Stats/info:
- Produced 2 Settlers (on top of the 1st one), 1 Worker (+an other one in 2 turns), 3 Axemen, Granary in city 2 (size 4)
- Alpha reached on T32 (barely, had to work 2 lake tiles for 1 turn)
- Gold city (#3) settled on T31
- First Axe is sent North to help un-barb the future city #3 spot (between the Axe and our Scout we can manage to keep our Workers safe), others are sent farming XP
T33 screenshots:
Spoiler :
The detailed micro: (tried to make it as clear as possible)
Spoiler :
See all y'all tomorrow!
