SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
I don't think it matters, but sure. pomthom: be sure to set research to the lowest % possible to finish Alphabet. We will have a Library in the capital in two turns.
Since we are at war and looking to steal Workers, it will probably be better for me to play several shortish turn sets than one long one. Before then, I've run a few tests, and here are some preliminary ideas and issues:
Let me know your thoughts regarding the above.
Especially:
Since we are at war and looking to steal Workers, it will probably be better for me to play several shortish turn sets than one long one. Before then, I've run a few tests, and here are some preliminary ideas and issues:
- Capital. 3–pop whip Library. Put OF into a Settler (?), then regrow. Try to remain at happy cap. Run 1 Scientist @ size 4, 2 Scientists @ size 5, stagnate growth on Worker/Settlers.
- Great Scientist. Should be expected ~T52, depending on how aggressively we beeline this.
- Technology. I would opt for Aesthetics.
- City #4. 3S of the capital currently seems best to me.
- Workers. We sorely need Workers. Rue de Paradis (= 2 pop whip) can produce one. If we cannot steal a Worker from Asoka, I will have Gare de l'Est begin one after the Monument (the other option is a Granary here).
- Exploration/fog-busting/Worker stealing. Northern Woodsman 2 Axe = Worker steal. Axe in capital = explore westwards, and promote to Woodsman II to speed this up. Scout can fogbust/explore the NE.
Let me know your thoughts regarding the above.
Especially:1. Next build in capital.
3. Next technology.
4. City #4 location.
6. Our general emphasis on units versus Workers/Settlers/infrastructure etc.
3. Next technology.
4. City #4 location.
6. Our general emphasis on units versus Workers/Settlers/infrastructure etc.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Slider set to 30%
, moved Axes and Scout, press end turn.
Alpha is in, slider set to 0%
Save uploaded and paused.
EDIT: updated test game attached.
, moved Axes and Scout, press end turn.Alpha is in, slider set to 0%
Save uploaded and paused.
EDIT: updated test game attached.
I don't think it matters, but sure. pomthom: be sure to set research to the lowest % possible to finish Alphabet. We will have a Library in the capital in two turns.
Since we are at war and looking to steal Workers, it will probably be better for me to play several shortish turn sets than one long one. Before then, I've run a few tests, and here are some preliminary ideas and issues:
- Capital. 3–pop whip Library. Put OF into a Settler (?), then regrow. Try to remain at happy cap. Run 1 Scientist @ size 4, 2 Scientists @ size 5, stagnate growth on Worker/Settlers.
OF to an axe, regrows to size 5 and then starts a settler. We are approaching the time when barbarians start invading, I feel the short of defending and spawnbusting units.
- Great Scientist. Should be expected ~T52, depending on how aggressively we beeline this.
- Technology. I would opt for Aesthetics.
I'm undecided, TGL seems to give more than currency. OTOH, currency makes the trade easy and also let us trade some cash to speedup research and we could expect to trade Math to gain more from chopping to TGL.
- City #4. 3S of the capital currently seems best to me.
I'm for 4S1W, 4 more green tiles + 1FP is big enough to wait for border pop and it can still work on the wheat from start. Moreover, capital still need food to hire 2 scientists constantly.
- Workers. We sorely need Workers. Rue de Paradis (= 2 pop whip) can produce one. If we cannot steal a Worker from Asoka, I will have Gare de l'Est begin one after the Monument (the other option is a Granary here).
- Exploration/fog-busting/Worker stealing. Northern Woodsman 2 Axe = Worker steal. Axe in capital = explore westwards, and promote to Woodsman II to speed this up. Scout can fogbust/explore the NE.
Let me know your thoughts regarding the above.
1. Next build in capital.
3. Next technology.
4. City #4 location.
6. Our general emphasis on units versus Workers/Settlers/infrastructure etc.
Heal the Axe before entering enemy's border.
Give Toks a city I guess? (We can do it once)
Map designSpoiler :
If you check the EPs, Toku has met other AIs. I can't tell how many from the last save, but pomthom probably can if he checked the previous saves.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
I tried to do that when I was playing but didn't remember how. I made plenty of Start and End saves so if you tell me how to determine that, I'll tell you
If you could list how many EPs that Tokus put on us each turn, we could have a rough idea. Another important factor is how much EP slider that Toku have used and his total commerce, if 10% then he has ~6 EPs to spend, 20% means ~8 EPs. We could assume that he has divide those EPs in average on everyone he has met.
It's not a big deal, the thing for sure is that there are more AIs that we could meet through land route. We know that the map is lake.
It's not a big deal, the thing for sure is that there are more AIs that we could meet through land route. We know that the map is lake.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Yes I remembered it was that but I don't know how to see the EPs he puts on us (aside from seeing the EP costs go up or stagnate)
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I think our Scout can go reveal the map NW to try and find some new people, but it might run into Barbs
I think I also prefer Currency before Aesth/Lit, but that could change.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
The cap will have 3rd border pop @T39, it would be nice to time the 4th city for T39 + time to improve Wheat (with roads as well)
Point your mouse cursor on top of Toku on the scoreboard, it will show you the ratio of his EPs vs us. You can see that Asoka has 140 EPs on us, which means that he is running at least 10% EP slider now.
I'm not sure whether to produce a worker or settler in capital 1st without running the test. Without workers available to work for city 4, it's better to delay.
This is not an argument against another Axe, but the test file suggests that we have quite a bit of time before barbs invade. Consider that, usually ~T30, the human will only have one city, and that Immortal barbs are not as aggressive as Deity.
We should have enough gold to research Aesthetics and most of Literature. Moreover, the capital unhappiness has dropped by ~T50, so we can easily whip into TGL and NE. Currency will be worth ~4GPT, but I suppose there will be a good amount of fail gold the AI will stockpile from all the ancient wonders. So I will think about this some more.
Will look into this.
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The AI automatically run a 20% espionage slider when at war.
Early testing shows that Rue de Paradis can 2-pop whip a Settler or Worker on the turn that it has 9/10
. I strongly suspect a Worker will be the better build, with a slower Settler coming from the capital.Starting Point will build a Settler/Worker more slowly than Rue de Paradis, even if we put the copious Library OF into this. But a slower Settler isn't a bad thing if the Wheat isn't already improved.
This is not an argument against another Axe, but the test file suggests that we have quite a bit of time before barbs invade. Consider that, usually ~T30, the human will only have one city, and that Immortal barbs are not as aggressive as Deity.
Barbarians will start to enter border when most AIs has 3 cities, I guess it's around 40~50. It will be quite severe since we have large empty space in south and North for barbarians to spawn, it won't be archers only, we should expect axes.
We should have enough gold to research Aesthetics and most of Literature. Moreover, the capital unhappiness has dropped by ~T50, so we can easily whip into TGL and NE. Currency will be worth ~4GPT, but I suppose there will be a good amount of fail gold the AI will stockpile from all the ancient wonders. So I will think about this some more.
As I already said, TGL gives more than currency for sure things, like beakers and GPPs (this is an uncertain value, could be 1 extra GS or nothing), but Currency offers benefit for something uncertain, or in another word, flexibility. Delaying TGL also has the advantage of more worker forces.
Will look into this.
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The AI automatically run a 20% espionage slider when at war.
Early testing shows that Rue de Paradis can 2-pop whip a Settler or Worker on the turn that it has 9/10
Starting Point will build a Settler/Worker more slowly than Rue de Paradis, even if we put the copious Library OF into this. But a slower Settler isn't a bad thing if the Wheat isn't already improved.
I'm a bit confused by the pomthom's hobby. Is Rue de Paradis the capital? If sugar city whips a settler, then capital slow produces a worker, or the other way around. It depends how we manage our current 2 workers.
Ran a test to T41/42 of 4th city.
A couple things was confirmed.
2 workers go directly to improve Wheat on T41 with roading and partial improvement on the way.
Lib OF to settler enables T42 of 4th city, if we sacrifice GS, we could have it on T41.
3rd worker from sugar site, which is on time to improve the rice immediately.
A couple things was confirmed.
2 workers go directly to improve Wheat on T41 with roading and partial improvement on the way.
Lib OF to settler enables T42 of 4th city, if we sacrifice GS, we could have it on T41.
3rd worker from sugar site, which is on time to improve the rice immediately.
pomthom, not being critical )) but try to think a little more about unit movement outside of the PPP. Our Workers are now exposed:
The Axeman can move back to check the tiles south of the Gold city, but this will cost two turns of movement towards Asoka. The North-East cannot be checked, so one tile will be unfogged until T33.
@all, the Workers have nothing that they can do besides road the Desert tile. Only one Worker in inactive on T32. Please let me know your thoughts regarding unit movement in this area.
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In terms of testing, here is a preliminary effort to T44:
Here I go to Aesthetics first. The OF from the Library goes into a Settler (hence 'Settler OF' as the file name). This will speed up our fourth city. I settle according to Duckweed’s suggestion.
The 2nd city Rice is improved on the third turn after our borders pop (= 2 Workers). The 4th city is settled on the turn that the Wheat is improved, with a Granary whipped upon growth to size 2.
I only attach a file to T44. Assuming that we can trade for Polytheism, Literature will be researched on the turn that the Marble is hooked up (= T51), with > 100 OF on the following turn (= T52). The Great Scientist is produced on T51, so these can be whipped away for the OF.
The drawbacks to this run:
So really this run sacrifices military for expansion. The Gold city is well positioned to receive any Workers we steal from Asoka. In the test, barbs have not invaded by the time that I research Literature, at which point we have 4/5 Axemen, IIRC.
Let me know what you think.
EDIT: with a rerun, I think I might produce an Archer after the Monument in the Gold city, and whip an Axe a little earlier in Sugar/Spice city (after the Worker and Archer complete).
Duckweed, I'm not sure how this compares with your run. Maybe post the save or pics on T44 for comparison?
)) but try to think a little more about unit movement outside of the PPP. Our Workers are now exposed:Spoiler :
The Axeman can move back to check the tiles south of the Gold city, but this will cost two turns of movement towards Asoka. The North-East cannot be checked, so one tile will be unfogged until T33.
@all, the Workers have nothing that they can do besides road the Desert tile. Only one Worker in inactive on T32. Please let me know your thoughts regarding unit movement in this area.
----
In terms of testing, here is a preliminary effort to T44:
Spoiler :
Here I go to Aesthetics first. The OF from the Library goes into a Settler (hence 'Settler OF' as the file name). This will speed up our fourth city. I settle according to Duckweed’s suggestion.
The 2nd city Rice is improved on the third turn after our borders pop (= 2 Workers). The 4th city is settled on the turn that the Wheat is improved, with a Granary whipped upon growth to size 2.
I only attach a file to T44. Assuming that we can trade for Polytheism, Literature will be researched on the turn that the Marble is hooked up (= T51), with > 100 OF on the following turn (= T52). The Great Scientist is produced on T51, so these can be whipped away for the OF.
The drawbacks to this run:
- Military suffers for our expansion. One Archer is produced, but the next Axe is only built on T45.
- The northern Gold city remains at size 1. I actually don’t consider this significant, because if we work the Rice, we lost 8BPT and the commerce is too valuable at this stage.
So really this run sacrifices military for expansion. The Gold city is well positioned to receive any Workers we steal from Asoka. In the test, barbs have not invaded by the time that I research Literature, at which point we have 4/5 Axemen, IIRC.
Let me know what you think.
EDIT: with a rerun, I think I might produce an Archer after the Monument in the Gold city, and whip an Axe a little earlier in Sugar/Spice city (after the Worker and Archer complete).
Duckweed, I'm not sure how this compares with your run. Maybe post the save or pics on T44 for comparison?
Test as told in post#234.
I chose Aes as you, just for comparison. I still need to see strong arguments for tech choice next.
Edit: It's likely that Asoka is going to settle his 2nd city south, so the free worker likely come from a roading worker in the south.
Edit 2: As I suspected, going for Literature 1st encountered the problem of worker force shortage.
I chose Aes as you, just for comparison. I still need to see strong arguments for tech choice next.
Edit: It's likely that Asoka is going to settle his 2nd city south, so the free worker likely come from a roading worker in the south.
Edit 2: As I suspected, going for Literature 1st encountered the problem of worker force shortage.
The saves look comparable, mutatis mutandis. I haven't done the math, but I like the earlier set up of city #4, since this will help control whip anger in city #1 and #2.
Using Settler and Worker OF to build the Great Library (after post #236) will build the wonder ~T62, but refinement is needed. And if we research Literature ~T50, the timing is unfortunate, because barbs start entering our borders at this time and we will need to rush several defenders. The hammers may be better spent on Axemen.
I don't like the timing of the first GS in either run, given that we can build an Academy on the exact turn we run out of gold. I wonder whether we should research Currency, turn the slider to 0%, and then research Aesthetics/Literature @100% once the Academy is built.
I'll test a bit more tomorrow, focusing on Currency before Aesthetics.
Using Settler and Worker OF to build the Great Library (after post #236) will build the wonder ~T62, but refinement is needed. And if we research Literature ~T50, the timing is unfortunate, because barbs start entering our borders at this time and we will need to rush several defenders. The hammers may be better spent on Axemen.
I don't like the timing of the first GS in either run, given that we can build an Academy on the exact turn we run out of gold. I wonder whether we should research Currency, turn the slider to 0%, and then research Aesthetics/Literature @100% once the Academy is built.
I'll test a bit more tomorrow, focusing on Currency before Aesthetics.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Yep sorry for the fog, I overlooked the fact that our Workers would return to vulnerable spots.
I'm not too worried about the North-East, the Scout killed 2 Wolves there and I don't think animals still spawn at this stage (although the game seems to be confused with this pseudo classic era start - or is it our test game?). However there is a small chance that we have a wandering wolf in the South-West indeed... sorry
Another thing that worries me is if a Barb Axe spawns to the North of Gare de l'Est, we won't be able to rush a defender
I'm not too worried about the North-East, the Scout killed 2 Wolves there and I don't think animals still spawn at this stage (although the game seems to be confused with this pseudo classic era start - or is it our test game?). However there is a small chance that we have a wandering wolf in the South-West indeed... sorry
Another thing that worries me is if a Barb Axe spawns to the North of Gare de l'Est, we won't be able to rush a defender
Also as I indicated in post#234, we could settle 4th city on T42 with the improvement of the grassland cottage in capital. It's trade-off commerce in capital vs food in 4th city.
Edit: can still settle 4th city on T41, but delay the improvement of the wheat by 1 turn. That's -2F in 4th city, but capital can work on grassland cottage when growing to size 6.
With currency 1st, if we could meet more AIs in time, we might be able to collect enough cash to support 100% tech to Literature. With enough workers to chop the forests, if lucky with Math, TGL can be done in a couple turns.
Edit: can still settle 4th city on T41, but delay the improvement of the wheat by 1 turn. That's -2F in 4th city, but capital can work on grassland cottage when growing to size 6.
With currency 1st, if we could meet more AIs in time, we might be able to collect enough cash to support 100% tech to Literature. With enough workers to chop the forests, if lucky with Math, TGL can be done in a couple turns.
