SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

[pomthom]

If Toku had 0% invested in , he has not met other AIs...

Turn Eps/Turn on us Total EPs on us Total EPs with Asoka Total Eps/Turn (known) Event
18 4 0 4
19 4 4 4
20 4 8 4
21 4 12 4 Toku meets Asoka
22 1 13 3 4
23 1 14 6 4
24 1 15 9 4
25 1 16 12 4
26 1 17 15 4
27 1 18 18 4
28 1 19 21 4
29 1 20 24 4
30 3 23 25 4
31 3 26 26 4
32 3 29 27 4

 

[Duckweed]

One main reason why AIs like SB and Toku are usually bad in tech is because they use heavy EP slider. Kossin is studying AIs' behavior now, maybe he has more clear idea.

Edit: usually odd number of EP means odd AIs met since he is not at war and not annoy with anyone, therefore EPs are likely evenly divided (with same focus on everyone).

 

[pomthom]

Asoka started off being Toku's worst enemy (on the first turn), could that influence?

 

[Duckweed]

Right, that explained the change of his EP ratio. He is smart to balance the EPs after not considering Asoka as his worst enemy.

This makes the situation a little complicated.

There still might be other AIs he has met, but

is Toku pleased with
or because Toku has more EPs on them already and he is trying to balancing the EPs on everyone now.

 

[kossin]

Quickly checking in (this is where I left off)... I'm back home but I need a few days to catch up now. Will read up tonight,

 

[Doshin]

WB kossin.

---

Regarding EP, doesn't the AI usually try to stay ahead of its opponents? They don't like to fall too far behind and, because we have focused our EP on Tokugawa, he will shift his emphasis back to us in response, and raise his slider if necessary (to keep up with Asoka as well).

-----

Currency finishes in T47. Not much gold left after (30G in my run). If we trade for Polytheism, we'll research Literature ~T62. If we receive a lot of gold in trades, it could be done earlier.

Currency itself is somewhat weak: just +4 GPT at present. Because we know no AI and are at the far edge of the map, it seems less likely that we will meet all the other AI, even if they can reach us. We'd need another Axeman early, I think.

There are four more AI left to meet. I wonder how much gold these can really have between them.

Ignoring the AI, if going to Literature first delays Currency by 12* turns, then we'll lose ~60C. If going to Currency first delays TGL by 8* turns, then we'll lose 64GPP. Moreover, if we build the National Epic (yeah yeah, GP pollution, I know) this in fact amounts to –144 GPP (running no Library Scientists) or (running Library Scientists) –240 GPP (15GPP x 2 x 8 turns).

*the 12 turns and 8 turns are estimates/guesses.

There is also no guarantee that we will be able to trade for Mathematics on T60. If it is available, it can speed up the National Epic, unless you absolutely want to avoid GP pollution. Regardless, it is possible to chop TGL very quickly, but it will consume a lot of Worker turns.

I wonder whether our tests should focus upon building TGL as quickly as possible. I think that, with careful micro, we could get it before T60. If Literature is researched on T50, and we have a Settler @ 54/100H and a Worker @ 29/60H, then we can have more than 200/350H invested by T52/3, I think.

 

[Duckweed]

Ignoring the AI, if going to Literature first delays Currency by 12* turns, then we'll lose ~60C. If going to Currency first delays TGL by 8* turns, then we'll lose 64GPP. Moreover, if we build the National Epic (yeah yeah, GP pollution, I know) this in fact amounts to –144 GPP (running no Library Scientists) or (running Library Scientists) –240 GPP (15GPP x 2 x 8 turns).

*the 12 turns and 8 turns are estimates/guesses.

Not sure how you get this number, from your post#238, your estimation of getting TGL with beeline to Literature is T62. In the worst case that we don't get much cash and finish Lit @T62, with ~3 workers to prechop a few forests, we are able to complete TGL in less than 5 turns, even 2 turns is possible with Math.

I am more inclined to Currency now.

With a few things that we can do for sure.

• Trade some cash from Toku with Alpha and please him in the same time.
• With ~4 axes, we should be able to take Asoka's 2nd city and twist something from him.
• If necessary, build wealth is available.

Therefore, before T60 Literature should not be a problem. It's a very close TGL date as I can see.

In the same time, we gain the flexibility of going for Currency 1st.

1. Easy and efficient trade
2. Better chance of trading for Poly due to more time to meet more AIs or twist from Asoka
3. Hammers and worker force can used for empire development earlier.

 

[Doshin]

Not sure how you get this number, from your post#238, your estimation of getting TGL with beeline to Literature is T62. In the worst case that we don't get much cash and finish Lit @T62, with ~3 workers to prechop a few forests, we are able to complete TGL in less than 5 turns, even 2 turns is possible with Math.

It depends on how much we sacrifice for an early TGL, e.g. a quick test shows that a T57 TGL is possible with just 1-chop (@20H) and three whips (Settler/Worker/Axe).

• Trade some cash from Toku with Alpha and please him in the same time.
• With ~4 axes, we should be able to take Asoka's 2nd city and twist something from him.
• If necessary, build wealth is available.

These are good points, but most of them are applicable to an Aesthetics ----> Literature ----> Currency tech route as well. The issue is a matter of order, i.e. will we choose to build Wealth between T47 and T62 because we have gone to Currency before Literature, or will we own Asoka's second city by T62, or do we need to bring Tokugawa to Pleased before T62?

In the same time, we gain the flexibility of going for Currency 1st.

1. Easy and efficient trade
2. Better chance of trading for Poly due to more time to meet more AIs or twist from Asoka
3. Hammers and worker force can used for empire development earlier.

I'm not sure about #1? For #2, yes I agree about Polytheism. For #3, yes.

-----

Currency is more flexible, for sure, but it seems very optimistic to me to expect that TGL will be built by T63 in a Currency ----> Aesthetics ----> Literature route (without Mathematics), and even if TGL is completed very quickly, the National Epic will be delayed in its turn.

Anyway, I don't mind too much. I think we need 3–4 Great Scientists before Lib:

1. Academy
2. Philosophy?
   
3. Education
4. Liberalism

Assuming we have an Academy already, 900GPP only requires 30 turns for a city with 30 GPPs per turn (running two Scientists). Without the NE, it will need 65 turns. If we ignore Philosophy, just 17 turns are needed to generate GS #2 and 3 (with the NE) or 36 (without the NE).

In either case, I think we will have a tougher time researching the intervening techs (Music/Civil Service/Paper/Nationalism etc.) than generating Great People.

 

[Duckweed]

It depends on how much we sacrifice for an early TGL, e.g. a quick test shows that a T57 TGL is possible with just 1-chop (@20H) and three whips (Settler/Worker/Axe).

I have not thought about whipping 3 units to gain OF to TGL. The way hurts capital too much. We gain TGL by a few turns, but then lose the yield from extra citizens for way longer time. 2 more scientists/other tiles in 10 turns plus 1 more scientist in another 10 turns obvious beat the yield of TGL of 5 turns earlier. Moreover, I doubt the usefulness of the worker since we are expecting free workers soon.


These are good points, but most of them are applicable to an Aesthetics ----> Literature ----> Currency tech route as well. The issue is a matter of order, i.e. will we choose to build Wealth between T47 and T62 because we have gone to Currency before Literature, or will we own Asoka's second city by T62, or do we need to bring Tokugawa to Pleased before T62?

Those don't apply to Literature 1st approach since you don't have Currency in ~15 turns period, hence you can't gain cash from trade to speedup research.

I'm not sure about #1? For #2, yes I agree about Polytheism. For #3, yes.

We could please an new AI with merely 10g, which is possibly required for tech trade. and again we could gain cash from tech trade, like Alpha<->IW.

Currency is more flexible, for sure, but it seems very optimistic to me to expect that TGL will be built by T63 in a Currency ----> Aesthetics ----> Literature route (without Mathematics), and even if TGL is completed very quickly, the National Epic will be delayed in its turn.

If as your test that T62 Literature without cash from AI, then as I told, T60 Literature is not difficult. With 3 workers to prechop forests plus OF, I don't see T63 TGL is a tough call. It does not even need to sacrifice the capital.

Anyway, I don't mind too much. I think we need 3&#8211;4 Great Scientists before Lib:

1. Academy
2. Philosophy?
   
3. Education
4. Liberalism

Assuming we have an Academy already, 900GPP only requires 30 turns for a city with 30 GPPs per turn (running two Scientists). Without the NE, it will need 65 turns. If we ignore Philosophy, just 17 turns are needed to generate GS #2 and 3 (with the NE) or 36 (without the NE).

In either case, I think we will have a tougher time researching the intervening techs (Music/Civil Service/Paper/Nationalism etc.) than generating Great People.

The value of extra GPPs, as I said already, is uncertain. We need not only the GSs to bulb to liberalism, but also more GSs after to bulb techs like Chemistry and SM. Therefore, a few turns of earlier TGL don't contribute a lot to the total GPPs in need. I have not counted the turns needed for those GPPs since it depends on a lot of other factors like how long time we will stay in CS+Pacifism+GA. The GPP gain from ~5 turns of earlier TGL+NE = ~100, which is 1 extra turn of running optimal civic in capital or it might be other GP farm being the bottleneck. Moreover, as I said, It looks to me a very close TGL date in both approaches.

 

[pomthom]

Will have time to work a bit on this tomorrow and give my input

 

[Doshin]

Sorry for the delay, I'm moving about a bit at the moment (IRL, I mean). I'll post micro later tonight.

 

[soundjata]

Test as told in post#234.

I chose Aes as you, just for comparison. I still need to see strong arguments for tech choice next.

Edit: It's likely that Asoka is going to settle his 2nd city south, so the free worker likely come from a roading worker in the south.

Edit 2: As I suspected, going for Literature 1st encountered the problem of worker force shortage.

Worker shortage is a strong argument against Literature beeline

Currency is a a good alternative for sustained beakers and trade flexibility.

Construction beeline also has its advantages (Asoka face-gold )

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``

What do you guys think of a Tokugawa city gift? Will he be trading more stuff at pleased?

Other purposes of a gift/trap city?

 

[soundjata]

for some reason, our military's ahead in the team graphs

Let's keep it high and above as()es!

 

[pomthom]

What do you guys think of a Tokugawa city gift? Will he be trading more stuff at pleased?

I prefer the possibility of gifting Alpha (also +4 fair and fortright) which has the big advantage of not having to do it right now: we wait until we have Aesth or Currency (or Maths as you suggested but I think it's too early for Construction, we are in no rush to conquer Asoka IMO) and if Tokes has interesting stuff to trade we gift him Alpha or Aesth and use the other tech to trade.

I don't really see any other use of a gift city.

-------------------------------

I also agree that Worker shortage is a strong argument for Currency first.

BTW even if we don't capture Constantinople right away, I think the NE should go there nonetheless (ie even without TGL) because we will have to bulb relatively far in the tech tree and I find leveraging food to GPP much easier and practical than in a hybrid site like our capitole will become. So 1. Use cap to get out the 2/3 first GS with TGL and a bit of food and 2. Use captured Constantinople as NE site for most of our other GPs

 

[Duckweed]

What do you guys think of a Tokugawa city gift? Will he be trading more stuff at pleased?

Other purposes of a gift/trap city?

At pleased, Toku will only trade techs known by everyone else or techs like Alpha, Monotheism that AIs are willing to trade immediately. Therefore, the advantage of being pleased with Toku now is that we could bribe him to DOW Asoka.

BTW even if we don't capture Constantinople right away, I think the NE should go there nonetheless (ie even without TGL) because we will have to bulb relatively far in the tech tree and I find leveraging food to GPP much easier and practical than in a hybrid site like our capitole will become. So 1. Use cap to get out the 2/3 first GS with TGL and a bit of food and 2. Use captured Constantinople as NE site for most of our other GPs

NE usually come with TGL. For a simple comparison of capital with Constantinople. TGL offers 8GPP plus ~5 specialists from food surplus in capital = 23 GPP. Constantinople could offer ~7 specialists = 21 GPPs. Moreover, the earlier we build NE, the more we get. Outside the period of running CS, the ratio becomes 8+6:6.

 

[Doshin]

Micro:

Spoiler :

T32:

Research @ 0%
Worker 2: road Gold (2/2).
Start roading from city #3 to city #2 (= 2/3). Cancel Worker 1.

Whip Library in capital.
City #2. Take Floodplains.

T33:

Capital: build Settler. New citizen on Spices.
Research @100%

Move Worker 2 on Gold 1SE. Road (3/3).
Move Worker 1 on Desert to City 2.

T34:

Move Worker 1 in City #2 to riverside Grassland. Cottage and cancel (1/4).
Move Worker 2 on Desert to City #2.

Capital. Build Axe. Run 1 Scientist (= former Spices).

T35:

Worker 1: move to Pigs. Road and cancel (1/2).
Worker 2: move to riverside Grassland. Cottage (2/4).

Capital. Build Settler. Run 2 Scientists.

T36:

Worker 1: move to Forest Grass Hill.

City 2: now at size 3. Work Grass Forest.

T37:

Worker 1: road Forest Grass Hill (1/2).

Capital: switch build to Axe. Change 1 Scientist to Grassland Cottage.

T38:

City #3. Monument completes. Begin Granary?

Worker 2: move to Pigs. Road (2/2).

Capital: change Grassland Cottage to Floodplains Cottage.
City #2: build Worker. Work Spices and two Forests.

T39:

Worker 1 and 2: move to desert 2S of capital. Road (2/3) and cancel.

Capital: build Settler. Change Scientist to Grassland Cottage.
City 2: whip. Work Sugar and Spices.

T40:

Worker 1 and 2: move to Wheat. Farm (2/5).
Worker 3: move to Rice. Farm (1/5).

Capital: change Floodplains to Scientist.
City 2: change Spices to Floodplains.

T41:

Capital: Settler completes. Change PH to Scientist. Resume Axeman.
City 2: Archer completes. 4H OF. Build Library.

Settler. Move to Forest Grass Hill.

T42:

Worker 1: complete Wheat farm (5/5).
Worker 2: move 1NW. Road desert (3/3)
Settler: move 1S. Found city. Build Granary.

T43:

Worker 2: move 1NW. Road (1/2) and cancel.
Worker 1: move to Forest Grassland Hill. Chop (1/3).

City #2: change Rice to Spices.

T44:

Worker 2: move 1W. Quarry (1/6).

City #2: change Spice(?) to Rice.

Pics:

Spoiler :

Some points:

• Capital: (1) receives an early Grassland Cottage. Developing this (= 6 turns of working this tile) will delay city #4 by one turn. (2) The Axe completes on the turn that we grow into unhappiness, but we then switch to another Settler. The Quarry completes on the turn that the unhappiness disappears.
  
• City #2: I favor > in city #2, because this has no Library and we have no other production cities, now that the capital is fully whipped. I default to a Library after the Archer in the test, but could go for a Barracks first. I would like to 2-pop whip an Axeman at size 5.
  
• City #3: in my test, I go from a Monument ---> Granary. I think I would prefer to go from a Monument ---> Archer, but will listen to feedback. The other alternative is a Worker or Axe.
  
• Tech: Currency is due on T47. It is possible to research this on T46 if we raise the slider to 100% on T32, but a heavy emphasis on commerce is also needed in city 2. City 3 will have to build Research for one turn.
  
• Units: Woodsman II Axe in North will harass Asoka. Unpromoted Axe in the south will remain and guard Workers around City #4 site. This will eventually garrison city 4.
  
• Exploration: the Scout is the only suitable unit left. We can use it to fogbust, or move it westward one tile at a time. Apart from the Archer in city #2, no new units are produced until T45.

I highly doubt I'll play all of this in one set. There are more variables as the game goes on.

Thoughts/comments welcome.

 

[Doshin]

Also, would anyone object to using non-Monopoly names for cities? It is a nice idea, but, with only 3 cities, I'm already finding it a little hard keeping track. I fear that the streets of Toronto/Stockholm/Montreal/soundjata's many homes will prove my undoing.

Perhaps we could use descriptive or illustrative names instead?

City 1 = Case Départ
City 2 = Sugar and Spice
City 3 = Golden Sand
City 4 = Weetabix (?)​

 

[pomthom]

NE usually come with TGL. For a simple comparison of capital with Constantinople. TGL offers 8GPP plus ~5 specialists from food surplus in capital = 23 GPP. Constantinople could offer ~7 specialists = 21 GPPs. Moreover, the earlier we build NE, the more we get. Outside the period of running CS, the ratio becomes 8+6:6.

I know but that comparison is not fair. When are we going to run 5 specialists in cap? Never when we want to improve cottages on grassland. Building NE in cap can mean early GPs come sooner, but next GPs come later because we have to balance working tiles and running specialists (it's not win-win).

Will take a look and comment at Doshin's micro tomorrow probably (a bit too drunk right now, France just got hammered by Wales, my mood is not adequate )

 

[pomthom]

Also, would anyone object to using non-Monopoly names for cities? It is a nice idea, but, with only 3 cities, I'm already finding it a little hard keeping track. I fear that the streets of Toronto/Stockholm/Montreal/soundjata's many homes will prove my undoing.

Perhaps we could use descriptive or illustrative names instead?

City 1 = Case Départ
City 2 = Sugar and Spice
City 3 = Golden Sand
City 4 = Weetabix (?)​

You're probably right

Sugar and Spice??

 

[Doshin]

Oh, whoops. Not Spice, but Silk.

Ok. City 2 = Rice Pudding?

-----

More seriously:

Our Workers are now exposed:

Spoiler :

I plan to promote the Axeman and move 1NE, 1SE. He can then fortify and heal for one turn. But we will still have to hope that the NE tile is free of Wolves/Panthers. We have killed two there so far.

Let me know if you think I should play it differently.

I would like to play this weekend. Tomorrow if my PPP seems ok to a majority, Sunday (or later) if there is further discussion or debate.