soundjata
everything
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2011
- Messages
- 2,652
SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
You gave a fair point on hiring scientists in capital. But, assume that the population is not a big problem since capital has enough food plus to grow fast, then working on grassland does not cosume food plus, only plain tiles consume 1F per tile. There are 4 plain tiles can be cottaged and 1 silk tile, which cost 5F. Therefore, capital can still hire 3 scientists. The ratio would be 8+9+1(from OU) = 18 vs 21.
Now, here comes the most important reasons. Most of the time, we will be running slavery, but not CS, the ratio is 8+6 vs 6. Moreover, capital could build NE earlier, of course depends on how soon we want to capture Asoka's capital.
I highly doubt I'll play all of this in one set. There are more variables as the game goes on.
- Capital: (1) receives an early Grassland Cottage. Developing this (= 6 turns of working this tile) will delay city #4 by one turn. (2) The Axe completes on the turn that we grow into unhappiness, but we then switch to another Settler. The Quarry completes on the turn that the unhappiness disappears.
I think it's still a gain to settle city 4 on T41, lose 2~3C from 4th city, but gain 2F2H.
- City #2: I favor
>
in city #2, because this has no Library and we have no other production cities, now that the capital is fully whipped. I default to a Library after the Archer in the test, but could go for a Barracks first. I would like to 2-pop whip an Axeman at size 5.
Agree as we agreed it as the HE candidate. However, it still better to let it produce a archer, simply for flexibility. If we want to whip library, we could switch to it 1 turn before whipping.
- City #3: in my test, I go from a Monument ---> Granary. I think I would prefer to go from a Monument ---> Archer, but will listen to feedback. The other alternative is a Worker or Axe.
Depends on when barbarians is going to enter and how well we could spawn bust. I think the sugar site should be fast enough to supply units.
- Tech: Currency is due on T47. It is possible to research this on T46 if we raise the slider to 100% on T32, but a heavy emphasis on commerce is also needed in city 2. City 3 will have to build Research for one turn.
Not sure what do you mean heavy emphasis of commerce in sugar site. The only choice is the lake tile vs forest grassland. I think 2C>1H unless there are special cases like in gold site, 1H in the 1st turn let it complete monument 1 turn faster. BTW, be sure to turn of governor in gold site as I found that the city governor always try to abandon gold mine in my test.
- Units: Woodsman II Axe in North will harass Asoka. Unpromoted Axe in the south will remain and guard Workers around City #4 site. This will eventually garrison city 4.
After healed, Woodman II axe could go directly to the south where Asoka's 2nd city should be settled. The tiles around the Ivory are critical points since a road on Ivory is for sure and Asoka's worker will try to connect road around. Try to pillage a road around there and then the GH tile 1N of the Rice would be a perfect ambush spot. 2nd axe could try to harvest some exp from barbarian and then go west after the roading worker arrives.
- Exploration: the Scout is the only suitable unit left. We can use it to fogbust, or move it westward one tile at a time. Apart from the Archer in city #2, no new units are produced until T45.
Thoughts/comments welcome.
I'm not very sure about the movement of the scout, slightly prefer to let it scout and fogbust the NE corner. We could let an woodmanII axe to scout west after it capture the 1st worker, which is much safer. For the worker safety in the 1st 2 turns, I would not worry too much since there won't be new animals spawned for now.
Edit: A couple things about worker stealing.
While approaching the destination (tiles around Ivory), move the axe 1 tile a turn to avoid ending on tile next to a worker without any remaining moving point.
When seeing a new worker produced, moving the axe 2 tiles away from the tiles needing a roading immediately and then come back next turn for the prey.
I'll look at this. I am in favor of laying down the Cottage now, otherwise ~10 turns of of Cottage growth are lost, and in the capital, that commerce becomes much more valuable with an Academy and Bureaucracy.
Earlier city #4 resulted in less food/hammers overall, IIRC. The main advantage is that, even with 2F on the first turn, it can whip 1 turn sooner (2F + (4F * 5) = 22/22F).
Sure. Archer sounds fine.
I mean, we need to work (e.g.) an unimproved riverside Grassland Hill when building a Worker. I'll check again, but the sacrifices felt quite big.
I'm also thinking about pillaging a resource (Ivory, probably), if Asoka does not have a second city by the time that our Axeman is in the area. That is usually a good way to trap AI Workers.
----
NE and TGL should be combined, I think. When you factor in the time needed to capture Constantinople, have it leave Anarchy, whip/chop a Library, and whip/chop the NE, it is already a long way behind the capital. Moreover, there are no guarantees that we can capture Constantinople early with our current tech path. We either need to involve another AI or get Catapults/HArchers.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Ok for the sake of comparison I took a look at the micro and ended up with 2 runs with a T41 4th city (1 where it is connected straight away, 1 where it isn't but the Wheat is also improved on T41). Neither my or Doshin's runs are obviously superior IMO, the evidence is not clear *lol*
@T44
Doshin
v1
pomthom
v1.1
pomthom
v1.2
Capitole: Size 6 Size 6 Size 6
Bin: 30/32
Bin: 27/32 Bin: 27/32
Settler Settler Settler
Build: 30 (Axeman) Build: 25 (Axeman) Build: 25 (Axeman)
42 GPP 42 GPP 42 GPP
City 2: Size 3 Size 3 Size 3
Bin: 20/26 Bin: 22/26 Bin: 22/26
Worker, Archer Worker, Archer Worker, Archer
Build: 9 (Archer) Build: 7 (Barracks) Build: 7 (Barracks)
City 3: Size 1 Same Same
Bin: 2/22
Monument
Build: 24 (Granary)
City 4: Settled: T42 Settled: T41 Settled: T41, 1st TR T43
Size 1 Size 1 Size 1
Bin: 8/22 Bin: 10/22 Bin: 12/22
Build: 4 (Granary) Build: 6 (Granary) Build: 6 (Granary)
Tech: 499
(Alpha T32) 500 in Currency 496 in Currency
Improvements: Wheat Farm @T42, GL Cott (worked 6 turns) Wheat Farm @T42, GL Cott (worked 7 turns) Wheat Farm @T41, GL Cott (worked 7 turns)
Comparison VS Doshin v1 : +1 +3
-5 -5
+1 -3
1T earlier Granary in City 4 1T earlier Granary in City 4
GL Cottage worked 1 extra turn GL Cottage worked 1 extra turn
In both runs my cap micro is the same:
------------------------
That's a very good point. Both you and Doshin have convinced me that TGL+NE in cap is the superior.
RE: Unit movement
Woody Allen: I'm not sure going South is the quickest way to grab more Workers. In my runs I tested out something that worked really well: (1) move on Corn, (2) pillage Corn, (3) pillage road, (4) move out NE-NE.
Woody benefits from attacking diagonally the Worker coming to road the Corn. In all my runs I was able to steal 2 Workers by T44, and once 3 Workers...
Scout: I think I'd prefer moving him West 1 tile at a turn to meet new AIs, but since I am not entirely confident we will find the dudes I don't feel too strongly about that.
Capitole: Size 6 Size 6 Size 6
Bin: 30/32
Bin: 27/32 Bin: 27/32 Settler Settler Settler
Build: 30
(Axeman) Build: 25 (Axeman) Build: 25 (Axeman)42 GPP 42 GPP 42 GPP
City 2: Size 3 Size 3 Size 3
Bin: 20/26
Bin: 22/26 Bin: 22/26 Worker, Archer Worker, Archer Worker, Archer
Build: 9
(Archer) Build: 7 (Barracks) Build: 7 (Barracks)City 3: Size 1 Same Same
Bin: 2/22
Monument
Build: 24
(Granary) City 4: Settled: T42 Settled: T41 Settled: T41, 1st TR T43
Size 1 Size 1 Size 1
Bin: 8/22
Bin: 10/22 Bin: 12/22 Build: 4
(Granary) Build: 6 (Granary) Build: 6 (Granary)Tech: 499
(Alpha T32) 500 in Currency 496 in CurrencyImprovements: Wheat Farm @T42, GL Cott (worked 6 turns) Wheat Farm @T42, GL Cott (worked 7 turns) Wheat Farm @T41, GL Cott (worked 7 turns)
Comparison VS Doshin v1 : +1
+3 -5
-5 +1
-3 1T earlier Granary in City 4 1T earlier Granary in City 4
GL Cottage worked 1 extra turn GL Cottage worked 1 extra turn
In both runs my cap micro is the same:
Spoiler :
------------------------
That's a very good point. Both you and Doshin have convinced me that TGL+NE in cap is the superior.
RE: Unit movement
Woody Allen: I'm not sure going South is the quickest way to grab more Workers. In my runs I tested out something that worked really well: (1) move on Corn, (2) pillage Corn, (3) pillage road, (4) move out NE-NE.
Woody benefits from attacking diagonally the Worker coming to road the Corn. In all my runs I was able to steal 2 Workers by T44, and once 3 Workers...
Scout: I think I'd prefer moving him West 1 tile at a turn to meet new AIs, but since I am not entirely confident we will find the dudes I don't feel too strongly about that.
A couple of reasons make that going directly to south is better.
1. If Asoka is settling the 2nd city in a few turns, then more likely his workers are connecting the roads in the south.
2. Capturing workers in south is safer to go home due to the shorter way and our 2nd axe nearby.
Nice tests pomthom.
I ran some more tests, settling city #4 on T41. For comparison:
I ran some more tests, settling city #4 on T41. For comparison:
The differences are so small that I don't suppose that it really matters which version is used. I need to rewrite my micro, but will play tonight or midday tomorrow.@T44 Doshin v2 pomthom v1.1 pomthom v1.2
Capitole: Size 6 Size 6 Size 6
Bin: 30/32
Settler Settler Settler
Build: 30
42 GPP 42 GPP 42 GPP
City 2: Size 3 Size 3 Size 3
Bin: 22/26
Worker, Archer Worker, Archer Worker, Archer
Build: 4
City 3: Size 1 Same Same
Bin: 2/22
Monument
Build: 24
City 4: Settled: T41 Settled: T41 Settled: T41, 1st TR T43
Size 1 Size 1 Size 1
Bin: 10/22
Build: 6
Tech: 500
Improvements: Wheat Farm @T42, GL Cott (worked 4 turns) Wheat Farm @T42, GL Cott (worked 7 turns) Wheat Farm @T41, GL Cott (worked 7 turns)
Comparison VS Doshin v2 : 3
-2
=
GL Cottage worked 3 extra turns GL Cottage worked 3 extra turns
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Your v2 looks nice 
That's a green light from me.
Don't know if it's relevant but I'll try to test some Worker steals in the South to see what's what.
That's a green light from me.
Don't know if it's relevant but I'll try to test some Worker steals in the South to see what's what.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
Not saying it's less effective (Duckweed's points are valid) but I haven't found an approach that beats the Corn attack in the North (which pretty much guarantees 4/5 steals in the next 20/30 turns):
Spoiler :
1. means that we could get 1st worker faster since their workers will finish connect and improving around 2nd and then come back.
2. workers can be used faster in where they are needed, that's capital.
AI will persistently try to connect or improve where we destroyed, so how many workers you can capture depends on when and how fast AI decide to produce a new one.
What the test results show, especially things that are RNG dependent, can be referred a bit, but not too much. The only thing that I trust the test results 100% is the shape of our own empire.
I really hope we could proceed with faster paces. I feel losing enthusiasm gradually.
Played to T35. I'm going to grab something to eat. If anyone signs on before then, suggestions re. this are welcome:
I think I need to test. I don't know how the Worker will behave if I fortify in place, or move 1SW.
).
Spoiler :
I think I need to test. I don't know how the Worker will behave if I fortify in place, or move 1SW.
Yes, I am sorry for the slow play, but my stay in Toronto has been extended by a month due to reasons beyond my control and it is difficult to find the time/space to play. I will also have to hand over to the next player on Wednesday, due to further travel (14 hour journey
).I opted for 1SW, to block access to the road:
As per tests:
I'm taking a break to think about unit movement:
1) Southern Axe
2) Woody Allen
3) Scout
I will resume tomorrow and adapt the micro now that we have another Worker.
Let me know your thoughts about the above (exploration/fogbusting/harassment).
----
EDIT: no interesting AI news. Tokugawa researched Iron Working. Asoka researched Monotheism but did not found the religion. No wonders built.
Spoiler :
As per tests:
Spoiler :
I'm taking a break to think about unit movement:
1) Southern Axe
Spoiler :
2) Woody Allen
Spoiler :
3) Scout
Spoiler :
I will resume tomorrow and adapt the micro now that we have another Worker.
Let me know your thoughts about the above (exploration/fogbusting/harassment).
----
EDIT: no interesting AI news. Tokugawa researched Iron Working. Asoka researched Monotheism but did not found the religion. No wonders built.
Obvious answer, I think, is to settle City 4 one turn sooner:
Spoiler :
This doesn't slow anything down in the capital. Growth/GPP/tiles etc. remain the same, I just build the Settler a little earlier.
BTW, Constantinople now only has two Archers defending it. Do you feel lucky?Looking good
Spoiler :
But maybe in ~15 turns we might think about this.
Phoenix Rising? It's hard to tell. Our Power was higher than the other teams on T32, despite the loss of a Warrior, and we weren't rushing anyone. OTOH, PR's power spikes and falls a bit after T45. Could just be barbs though.
