SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

[Doshin]

Avoid barb axe.

When Case Depart builds its Axeman, this should take the place of the southern forgbusting Axe. The current fogbuster will then become our new Worker steal unit, while the current Woodsman II Axe goes to explore.

Plunder ivory and be ready to capture worker on ivory or cow.

I would not worry about the Ivory. The AI will prioritize connecting its cities, and camping the Ivory for two turns will encourage Asoka to build Archers > Workers and Settlers. The plunder gold does not justify this.

Keep the Axeman on the Grass Hill 1N of the Rice. This grants visibility of the Cow (1N of Thessalonica) and lets us move to view Constantinople every turn (move 1NW) and then return (move 1SE), if no Workers have been built.

With a Worker built in Thessalonica, Asoka will attempt to road the Cow. With a Worker built in Constantinople, Asoka will attempt to road the Forest 1S or the Floodplains.

Use 1 worker to build cottage by Sheepish.
Use 2 workers to improve marble that the capital can work before growing to size 7.

Worker management here is tricky, which is why I stopped. You need to balance development of the southern cities with the paucity of improvements in the north.

In your tests, I would suggest that Sheepish receives no further improvements until it has grown to size 2 for the third time. On T46, whip a Granary. On T51, whip a Monument. On T55, make sure that a Worker completes the first Cottage.

This frees up Worker turns and speeds up the border pop in Sheepish. The food surplus will go from +4F to +7F with access to the Sheep, and +8F with the Floodplains. We will then need two Workers in the area by ~T61.

At least one Worker needs to move north. How quickly depends on testing. E.g. one Worker could head directly there (4 movements a turn) or partly complete improvements along the way (2–3 movements a turn).

The Quarry only needs to be improved in time for the capital to lose its unhappy citizen.

We will need at least two Workers in place to found city #5, if not three. It will need to have a road in place. The Rice by Golden Sands needs to be irrigated very soon, so again two–three Workers are needed.

I am not sure what unimproved tile Rice Pudding should work (choice of Rice, Lake, and Silk) but my hunch is that the Silk is best. We will have unhappiness problems here soon, so unimproved > unimproved (is my hunch).

3
Use northern worker to improve rice by golden sands. Use scout to make sure it is not eaten.

Manage the Scout movement as I suggested in post #294: "The Scout should check the one last tundra/Forest tile (i.e. 1W, in case Fur or Deer is located in the Forest) and then fogbust [by fortifying] on the Cow tile."

pop whip of settler in capital?

No, unless we have a good reason to produce OF. We are not ready to settle a fifth city and getting Workers in place will require several turns.

Or shall we just chop forests and capture Constantinople? We can have Constantinople by turn 56.

I am against this. The Forests are better left to be chopped for wonders. However, perhaps others are more aggressive than me?

Either:
- paratroopers
- teleport
- pick another Corporation

I think he really wants us to get Paratroopers so that the later Corporations are also valid. So I'd appreciate if we double-checked teleportation into barb culture.

Not properly checking game mechanics has famously cost a team gold by 1 turn in the past

We will circle the barb culture soon enough and can check that it is 100% sealed off. The good news is that this limits barb spawn in the north.

~~~

Capturing Constantinople with WII Axes means we will face fewer defenders (no emergency whips), but we'd need extra experience on the newer axes to do so. I think that requires too much time, we can send a small dispatch of 3-xp Axes (4 max.) and have the 2 Woodsman keep close in case.

The WII suggestion was for Thessalonica, which only has one defender at present. I agree that better Axemen would be needed for Constantinople.

Great Spies are good for Golden Ages. As long as we build TGL and NE quickly, we can delay this Great Person until the late game.

How much culture does Constantinople have, btw? I do not have the game to hand. The number is visible on the victory screen.

 

[Duckweed]

Ok, at last I can start to make a plan.

Not ready for a real PPP yet. I will try tonight.

Avoid barb axe.
Plunder ivory and be ready to capture worker on ivory or cow.
Use 1 worker to build cottage by Sheepish.
Use 2 workers to improve marble that the capital can work before growing to size 7. 3
Use northern worker to improve rice by golden sands. Use scout to make sure it is not eaten.
pop whip of settler in capital?

Or shall we just chop forests and capture Constantinople? We can have Constantinople by turn 56.

The things that you can do immediately is move current scout 1S (Confirm with doshin whether it's safe, then try to move 1SE->1W next turn and finally fogbust on the COW, this ensure that all barbarians in north will go for Gold city.

The axe around Cons should scout west (better to be Northwest) immediately and in the same time, promote the other axe to woodmanII and send it toward the GH 1N of the Rice (this should be done right after that axe got 4 exp), there's good chance that we could capture worker around Ivory (either 1N or the FP) and around the Cow if Asoka is producing another worker from 2nd city.

Try to use the 3rd axe to defend on forest and kill the barbarian axe in south.

Don't chop the forests in capital since we need them to speedup TGL and NE. Your micro is mainly to manage the production in sugar site. i.e. to produce an archer + barrack + 2 Axes with 2 whips only.

 

[Doshin]

The things that you can do immediately is move current scout 1S (Confirm with doshin whether it's safe, then try to move 1SE->1W next turn

EDIT: no barbarian sightings in the north. There is a very small chance that an unknown barb moved from 1NE of the Rice to 1NW of the Cow IBT. But that would be horrendous luck.

The last troop movements in south:

Spoiler :

I haven't seen anything further for four turns. The Axe has probably killed the Scout by now.

 

[Folket]

I was thinking 8 axes and keeping two in reserve. My test lost 4 axes to 3 archers.

 

[Doshin]

I was thinking 8 axes and keeping two in reserve. My test lost 4 axes to 3 archers.

Don't think about rushing Constantinople. Any attack is too far off and will fall to one of kossin, soundjata, or Duckweed, depending on how much emphasis we place upon Axemen. Chopping Forests now is inefficient and wastes Worker turns. The only exception is to chop into a Granary, to enable a 1-pop whip at size 2.

The priorities are, in no particular order:

1. Rice Pudding: produce an Archer + Barracks + 2 Axes with 2 whips only
   
2. Sheepish: set up this city. On T46, whip a Granary. On T51, whip a Monument. On T55, make sure that a Worker completes the first Cottage. Have 2 Workers ready to pasture the Sheep as soon as the borders expand.
   
3. Capital: improve Marble before (or on the turn that) the unhappy citizen disappears. Otherwise, this city largely runs itself.
   
4. Workers: as I explain in post #301. The difficulty is moving one or two of these northwards at the correct time, to prepare for city #5 and improve Golden Sands.
   
5. Fog-busting/barb defense: keep the NE clear with the Scout on the Cow, until City #5 is settled. Send the capital's new Axeman to guard Sheepish. Rice Pudding will soon be our main source of units.
   
6. Worker steal: camp the Grassland Hill and check the Cow (1N of Thessalonica) and Forest/FP (1S/1SE of Constantinople) each turn. Eventually replace this Axeman with the Axe currently fogbusting Sheepish.
   
7. Explore: when the new Worker steal Axeman reaches the Grassland Hill, the veteran should move west, sticking to defensive terrain for protection.

Other aims, like "no unhappy citizens, except when building a Worker/Settler," or "don't work unimproved tiles, without a good reason," I take for granted.

This set should aim to consolidate and improve/protect our current empire. By its end, we should have (or nearly have) an Academy in the capital, a small force of Axemen, and 5 well managed, safe cities.

 

[Folket]

At the moment I'm of the opinion that we should attack Constantinople. I would like to hear what others think.

PPP
Sheepish:
Worker chops forest N into granary turn 45. Works 2F1C when at size 2.
Whips granary turn 48. Whips monument turn 52.
Metaplan production

Case Départ:
Start settler on turn 45.
Metaplan commerce

Golden Sands:
Finish granary before working rice to grow.
I.e. Work rice turn 53 and grow turn 57. (will loose 3 food if working rice before granary is built. )
Or northern worker will have two turns spare before/after rice is improved. Chop forest to put a cottage on grassland? A farm? City will grow again on turn 62.
Meta plan commerce.

Rice Pudding:
Work rice at size 3. turn 43. Improved turn 44.
Have two works build a farm SE. Chop turn 45. farm 47. Then mine turn 49.
Is granary full of food?
Grow again turn 45.
Build an other archer.
Meta plan production.

Scout will explore tundra then move to cow to prepare for next city.
Axemen 2 will wait one turn then replace axeman 1.
Axeman 1 will move west once axeman 2 arrives.
New Axeman. Move south to make Sheepish secure.

I will play according to plan until something changes. Like I capture a worker which needs micro to be updated.

 

[kossin]

I will play according to plan until something changes. Like I capture a worker which needs micro to be updated.

Maybe best to get some approval from the team first?

 

[Doshin]

As we are still in the early stages of the game, a more detailed, turn-by-turn plan is needed, with (e.g.) a more extensive account of Worker moves:

What your plan should cover:

The plan must contain 2 detailed parts:

1. What you will check for every turn (EP, trades available, GPT available etc.) [this is easy]
2. Turn-by-turn worker moves, city micromanagement, unit movement and or general guidelines as to what we can't control via test game. [this is the hard part]
​

The team might at one point decide to slack on #2 once the game becomes well in hand.

For some possible models, Duckweed, pomthom, me.

Edit: xpost with kossin.

 

[Folket]

Maybe best to get some approval from the team first?

I do not know how I gave the impression that I would not listen to the team.

 

[Folket]

As we are still in the early stages of the game, a more detailed, turn-by-turn plan is needed, with (e.g.) a more extensive account of Worker moves:


For some possible models, Duckweed, pomthom, me.

Edit: xpost with kossin.

I guess I can reorder my micro by turn. I will post such a table tomorrow.

As for the issues at hand. I have only mapped out all action three turns ahead. I was hoping I could get some feedback on my plans to be able to flesh them out more.

 

[Doshin]

I guess I can reorder my micro by turn. I will post such a table tomorrow.

As for the issues at hand. I have only mapped out all action three turns ahead. I was hoping I could get some feedback on my plans to be able to flesh them out more.

Try to produce a detailed plan that runs 5–10 turns ahead, as this often reveals problems with earlier stages of micro, or new possibilities. For instance, does Rice Pudding run into happiness problems after the initial whips? If so, then it may be better to work the unimproved Silk than the unimproved Rice.

The plan will change in accordance with the game, OFC, so try to think of areas that could be tweaked with a change, or form plans that allow some degree of flexibility (in my set, I could change my micro to found city #4 a turn sooner than originally planned).

Regarding your earlier PPP:

PPP
Sheepish:
Worker chops forest N into granary turn 45. Works 2F1C when at size 2.
Whips granary turn 48. Whips monument turn 52.

As before: Sheepish should receive no further improvements until it has grown to size 2 for the third time. On T46, whip a Granary. On T51 (as soon as we are @ size 2), whip a Monument. On T55 (again, @ size 2), make sure that a Worker completes the first Cottage.

If you whip a Granary 3-turns sooner, the unhappy citizen will go away 3-turns sooner. Then the quicker the Monument is built, the quicker we can improve the Sheep.

Metaplan production

Case Départ:
Start settler on turn 45.

Fine.

Metaplan commerce

Golden Sands:
Finish granary before working rice to grow.
I.e. Work rice turn 53 and grow turn 57. (will loose 3 food if working rice before granary is built. )

Sounds fine. Make sure that your PPP will have the Rice improved by T53.

Or northern worker will have two turns spare before/after rice is improved. Chop forest to put a cottage on grassland? A farm? City will grow again on turn 62.

I am not sure how you are managing this Worker and would need to see the PPP, e.g. you may choose to road towards the Cow/Corn. I have said before that one of the Workers in the south needs to move north on this turn or the next, and another may soon follow.

Meta plan commerce.

Rice Pudding:
Work rice at size 3. turn 43. Improved turn 44.
Have two works build a farm SE. Chop turn 45. farm 47. Then mine turn 49.

I do not think this will work. Chops are a poor use of Worker turns and hammers before Mathematics. They should only be used where absolutely necessary (e.g. if we had wanted to chop the Oracle).

A farm is not needed 1SE. The city will experience happiness problems in ~10 turns and a farm (= 5 Worker turns, 8 with the chop) will go to waste.

Since no further resource tiles are available, improvements around this city are low priority. You may, however, find that mining a riverside Grassland Hill (or two) helps to control the unhappiness. The value of mining this (= 5 Worker turns) must not interfere with farming the Rice (in Golden Sands) or preparing to settle City #5.

Is granary full of food?
Grow again turn 45.
Build an other archer.
Meta plan production.

Scout will explore tundra then move to cow to prepare for next city.

I think I suggested this too, but Duckweed preferred that we hurry there immediately. I would now go with Duckweed's suggestion for safety.

Axemen 2 will wait one turn then replace axeman 1.
Axeman 1 will move west once axeman 2 arrives.
New Axeman. Move south to make Sheepish secure.

Sounds fine.

I will play according to plan until something changes. Like I capture a worker which needs micro to be updated.

 

[Folket]

turn 42
worker 1 moves to N of Sheepish and starts to chop
worker 2 moves to Case Départ
worker 3 moves to Case Départ
scout moves towards cow

turn 43
worker 2 move to SE of Rice Pudding and start chop
worker 3 move to SE of Rice Pudding and start chop
Rice Pudding grows and starts to work rice

turn 44
worker 2 finish choping
worker 3 move to NW of Rice Pudding and start mine

turn 45
Case Départ grows and starts settler
worker 2 move to NW of Rice Pudding and helps with mine
worker 4 move to EESE of Golden sands
Rice Pudding starts an archer
Rice Pudding grows and starts to work silk
worker 1 ??? (I would like a mine but Sheepish has a nice river so it might be better to make it a commerce city. Just have a felling we are making commerce everywhere. )

turn 46
whip granary in Sheepish
worker 4 move to EEEE of golden sands and build road for 1 turn
Rice Pudding starts to work mine instead of silk

turn 47
start monument in Sheepish
worker 4 move to SE of rice
worker 2 ???
worker 3 ???
Rice Pudding grows and starts to work silk

turn 48
worker 4 start improving rice

turn 49
switch to barracks in Rice Pudding

turn 50
Rice Pudding grows and is whiped for two pop

turn 51
whip monument in Sheepish

turn 53
Golden Sand starts to work rice after granary is finished.
worker 4 ???

 

[Folket]

Regarding your earlier PPP:

I was generating extra commerce in Sheepish by delaying the whip. Turn 52 seems to have been a miscalculation. But you are right that earlier whip unhappiness is probably better.

Rice Pudding does have a lot of excess food. A farm is not useful right now. But I still support my chop to get the archer out which allows the city to grow without turning unhappy.

Riverside hills. I forgot to consider that. I do not like loosing two/four worker turns but the extra commerce is worth it. I will need to update my PPP.

I will micro the scout according to Duckweeds S, SE W, S plan.

 

[kossin]

I do not know how I gave the impression that I would not listen to the team.

Just a language thing I suppose then, the part I quoted made it seem (at least by my comprehension of English dialect) that you were going to play with the proposed plan.

~~~

I've pretty much caught up my RL lost time, I will start contributing to the SGOTM a bit this week.

 

[Folket]

Just a language thing I suppose then, the part I quoted made it seem (at least by my comprehension of English dialect) that you were going to play with the proposed plan.

~~~

I've pretty much caught up my RL lost time, I will start contributing to the SGOTM a bit this week.

I meant that I will stop my set once something changes the micro which I expect I will get a worker within 6 turns. That I wait for the team to give me green light I think is implied.

 

[Doshin]

I was generating extra commerce in Sheepish by delaying the whip. Turn 52 seems to have been a miscalculation. But you are right that earlier whip unhappiness is probably better.

Rice Pudding does have a lot of excess food. A farm is not useful right now. But I still support my chop to get the archer out which allows the city to grow without turning unhappy.

You should be able to produce this before the city becomes unhappy without the aid of a chop.

Riverside hills. I forgot to consider that. I do not like loosing two/four worker turns but the extra commerce is worth it. I will need to update my PPP.

I will micro the scout according to Duckweeds S, SE W, S plan.

I attach a test run to T56. I only managed city and Worker micro, not units/fogbusting etc.

Rice Pudding can produce 2 Archers, 2 Axemen, and a Barracks with 2 whips. No chops are needed. At size 6, it will need to 3-pop whip a Library to keep unhappiness under control. Or else, begin a Worker/Settler.

The Quarry ought to be (and can be) improved on the turn that the capital's unhappy citizen disappears.

The Rice ought to be (and can be) improved on the turn that the Granary is built.

It is quite easy to time City #5 with the completion of the road network and improvement of the Rice.

Take a look and compare this to your save on T56. If you would like me to post my micro, please let me know.

Edit, pictures:

Spoiler :

 

[Folket]

Looks very comparable. I have one less forest and one more axeman. One less unhappiness in Rice Pudding and one more in Case Départ.

Earlier settler has allowed me better work micro in Amsterdam, but have less money.

 

[Folket]

I see you stopped generating GPPs in our capital. Do we want to do that?

 

[Folket]

I would prefer to hear what someone else think about these issues.
1. Chop one forest in Rice Pudding.
2. Whip settler in Case Départ.
3. Generating GPPs in Case Départ.

 

[Doshin]

I see you stopped generating GPPs in our capital. Do we want to do that?

Yes. After the Academy, the points go down in value because the National Epic will soon be built. Put the citizens to other uses while you still can.

2. Whip settler in Case Départ.

I think so. My City #5 could be settled sooner.

For your City #5, make sure that two Workers are in place to improve the Cows on the turn after the city is settled. Otherwise the loss of is not justified.

Comparison:

Spoiler :

(1) Commerce

Doshin Folket
Gold 156 (–25 GPT) 116 (–26 GPT)
Science 199 (+60 BPT) 200 (+ 60 BPT)

Doshin = +40 Gold
Folket = +1 Beaker

(2) Cities

Case Depart Doshin Case Depart Folket

Size 8 (22/36F) Size 7 (18/34F)
1 Hammer OF 28/35H
3 turns of unhappiness 13 turns of unhappiness

Doshin = +20 Food
Folket = +27 Hammers
Folket = +10 unhappiness

Rice Pudding Doshin Rice Pudding Folket

Size 5 (14/30F) Size 6 (20/32F)
63/35H Axeman
18/25H Archer 31H Hammers OF
20 turns of unhappiness 13 turns of unhappiness

Folket = +20 food
Doshin = +50 Hammers
Doshin = +7 unhappiness

Golden Sands: same
Sheepish: same

Amsterdam Doshin Amsterdam Folket

Size 1 (0/30F) Size 1 (9/22F)
0 3/60H

Unit/infra builds the same, but Folket 1 more Axe (+35H)

(3) Summary

Doshin: +40 Gold
Doshin: –3 unhappiness (but not a big deal)
Folket: +1 Beaker
Folket: +9F
Folket: +21H (~1H, ignoring the chop)

In short:

Base numbers: 39 versus 30 /
Chop discounted: 39 versus 10 /

I am also preserving that Forest until Mathematics, which will add 10 to its value. OFC, that is moot if the hammers are needed now (are they?).

Sorry, I did not take pictures comparing points in the capitals. Folket's save has more than mine (2).

Folket: looking at your save, two things strike me:

1. The capital's GSs should be whipped or (better) working improved tiles, for the reasons I stated above.
2. Sheepish is over-improved; Case Depart is under-improved, and needs a Quarry especially. A non-riverside Cottage would be ok there too.

----

All IMO.

No more general feedback from me, unless specific questions are asked. I do not want to dominate discussions and this is Folket's set.

pomthom is away, so: kossin, soundjata, Duckweed? Thoughts?

Regardless, I suggest we play v. soon.