SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

[kossin]

Music next. Philo bulb available... ?

TSR's culture graph is weird. Caste border pops?

Base EP cost of Calendar is about 808 in closest Toku city. With religion, stationary I think we can expect to pay ~40% of the cost so around 330 EP. That's 6 turns away so let's get a spy or2 ready over there. Probably conservative numbers too but we may decide to not wait the full 5 turns ...

 

[Duckweed]

I'm pretty sure you don't want me to play fast

You could make a 5~10 turn plan a day and play in the next day, I don't see any reason why I don't want you to play fast. I have almost skipped the detail micro since Doshin's set and only give general directions and suggestions. If you have looked at our other SGOTMs, you'll see that I have always been the one who was pushing the progress, even at the cost of sub-optimal results.

 

[Duckweed]

Music next. Philo bulb available... ?

Yes.

TSR's culture graph is weird. Caste border pops?

I believe so, and they could also rely on that to hurry up the GS. They don't look like having TGL and is still warmongering, maybe is after Toku.

Base EP cost of Calendar is about 808 in closest Toku city. With religion, stationary I think we can expect to pay ~40% of the cost so around 330 EP. That's 6 turns away so let's get a spy or2 ready over there. Probably conservative numbers too but we may decide to not wait the full 5 turns ...

Agree.

 

[Doshin]

Yes to Philosophy and Music. Let's put 100% into Music now, before the Market is built in Case Départ.

We could whip a Spy in Sea Horse, since it and Constantinople are going to grow onto unimproved tiles next turn.

The Woodsman III Axe in Tokugawa's territory needs to locate Nappy's cities next, so that we have foreign trade routes with him.

I think we'll see some plotting in the next 5–10 turns.

 

[Doshin]

The turns are relatively straightforward for the moment, in any case. It is a good time to play.

We can also explore a little more freely with the Scout, IMO. If he dies, it's no big deal. He costs –1 per turn. Just make sure he can scout out the pre-settled barb city.

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We don't want to attack Tokugawa with Horse Archers, do we?

edit: I would be against, but I mention it because he seems very soft now (just one source of metal, 2–3 defenders per city) and has multiple resources.

edit 2: TSR: beeline to CoLs, switch into Caste System, generate many Scientists, beeline Oxford, ignore Literature and Music as distractions.

^^^ my guess

 

[kossin]

^^I think by the time we get a decent force, it'll be too late to strike Toku with HAs. That being said, they'd be good units to make from HE city to cut on travel time.

 

[Doshin]

We won't be able to build them for ~8 turns, so you are no doubt right. I suppose that if Tokugawa is still weak at that stage (no LBs), we can assess the benefits of rushing a handful of cities then.

Since Napoleon has ten cities, and Napoleon himself is connected to Alex, establishing a trade network will be a big boost for us: +14 at a stroke.

Should we build some Barracks in Constantinople, even before the Library? It is a front-line city and will have good production. More importantly, we can chop some Forests into the Heroic Epic to help us reach Civil Service.

 

[Duckweed]

We could whip a Spy in Sea Horse, since it and Constantinople are going to grow onto unimproved tiles next turn.

I'd start a spy in Const and whip it next turn, since it's closer and Sea Horse still needs pops to whip CH and LH.

The Woodsman III Axe in Tokugawa's territory needs to locate Nappy's cities next, so that we have foreign trade routes with him.

Yes, I'd send a worker in Dye Hard there if unconnected

The turns are relatively straightforward for the moment, in any case. It is a good time to play.

Are you itchy to play? I have no problem of playing later.

We can also explore a little more freely with the Scout, IMO. If he dies, it's no big deal. He costs –1 per turn. Just make sure he can scout out the pre-settled barb city.

Agree.

We don't want to attack Tokugawa with Horse Archers, do we?

edit: I would be against, but I mention it because he seems very soft now (just one source of metal, 2–3 defenders per city) and has multiple resources.

As I said before, I'm reluctant to attack Toku in normal condition, but will take the opportunity if he is involved in another war. That says, he is DoWed by Nappy or bribed by other AI.

A few more issues:

1. Do we want to delay the Phi bulb till next turn when we can spread Buddhism to Dye Hard 1st. Otherwise, Tao will be founded in Dye Hard and we have 10% chance of failure.
   
2. Diplomacy, I'll only yield to tech demand, but not cash demand. What's your opinion?
   
3. Do we want 10g from Toku and HR+50g from HC? I'd say yes since HC could trade CoL to Nappy for Currency, moreover, HR gives us the chance of assaulting to Toku.
   
4. What to do with the Tao missionary? Spread in capital or send it to scout. I'd like to use it immediately and use some HAs to scout later.

 

[Duckweed]

Should we build some Barracks in Constantinople, even before the Library? It is a front-line city and will have good production. More importantly, we can chop some Forests into the Heroic Epic to help us reach Civil Service.

I'd like to save the forests in Const for MoM and let Rice pudding complete HE and start warriors.

 

[Doshin]

I'd start a spy in Const and whip it next turn, since it's closer and Sea Horse still needs pops to whip CH and LH.

This is fine. I'm not sure where we'd produce the Missionary. Can Sheepish 2–pop whip one soon enough? We'd need to check.

Are you itchy to play? I have no problem of playing later.

I could play 2–3 turns tomorrow, but no more during the week.

A few more issues:

1. Do we want to delay the Phi bulb till next turn when we can spread Buddhism to Dye Hard 1st. Otherwise, Tao will be founded in Dye Hard and we have 10% chance of failure.
   
   In theory, yes, fine. But has HC researched anything since my set? He'd finished Theology on the turn before we met. pomthom?
   
   
2. Diplomacy, I'll only yield to tech demand, but not cash demand. What's your opinion?
   
   No to cash. I suggested here that we raise the slider, and again here, to reduce our gold. I don't mind partially researching it if we don't have enough gold. The Heroic Epic will help fund the last few turns.
   
   The only tech I wouldn't give up is Literature.
   
   
3. Do we want 10g from Toku and HR+50g from HC? I'd say yes since HC could trade CoL to Nappy for Currency, moreover, HR gives us the chance of assaulting to Toku.
   
   10G is fine. We may even gain some positive diplo out of it, and Toku is much less threatening at Pleased than Cautious (we'd still need +1 from resource trades or Open Borders, though).
   
   Do you know whether the WFYABTA limit decays over time? We are not in the lower half of the scores, and Huayna will be the AI tech leader for a while.
   
4. What to do with the Tao missionary? Spread in capital or send it to scout. I'd like to use it immediately and use some HAs to scout later.

Spread to our capital. We can build two Monasteries with one whip.

In fact, since we did most of our trading before we met Alex and HC, do those trades count towards the WFYABTA limit?

I have not thought about this for a while, but clearly kcd_swede wanted to make difficult tech trading a peculiarity of the map.

 

[Duckweed]

This is fine. I'm not sure where we'd produce the Missionary. Can Sheepish 2–pop whip one soon enough? We'd need to check.

Sheepish could start a missionary next turn and complete it with a chop from the riverside tile.

I could play 2–3 turns tomorrow, but no more during the week.

Go ahead then, I'll take over after that. Maybe pomthom feels motivated to play again next.

In theory, yes, fine. But has HC researched anything since my set? He'd finished Theology on the turn before we met. pomthom?

HC's tech rate is easy to estimate since he is the one who is #1 of GNP (125 for now), minus the culture (16 + 5 + 4 + 3 + lib?) and EPs (4 or more), that's 93 at most. So it will take him at least 1300/(1.3 * 93) = 11 turns to complete Phi.

No to cash. I suggested here that we raise the slider, and again here, to reduce our gold. I don't mind partially researching it if we don't have enough gold. The Heroic Epic will help fund the last few turns.

The only tech I wouldn't give up is Literature.

I'm fine to raise slider next turn, but we still have quite a lot of cash and more after cash the HE. HC won't demand Lit in the next few turns. I believe that AIs will take some time before doing another demand.


Do you know whether the WFYABTA limit decays over time? We are not in the lower half of the scores, and Huayna will be the AI tech leader for a while.

AIs have some chance of forgetting 1 tech trade each turn. The tech we really need in short time is Calendar and we are going to steal it. Later on we might want MC and Machinery, and that would be quite long time later. So I would not bother with the WFYABTA limit for now.

In fact, since we did most of our trading before we met Alex and HC, do those trades count towards the WFYABTA limit?

It will be counted as long as they know the AI we traded with, so Alex does but HC does not count the techs we traded from Asoka.

 

[Doshin]

The Sheepish chop went into the ToA, I think, so it would need to be whipped.

Huayna can't demand anything for ~9 turns, but Kublai Khan has Aesthetics too.

What about cancelling trade agreements? E.g. Tokugawa or Napoleon demand that we cancel our deals (= OBs) with Alex. I suppose I rank the AI as follows:

• Kublai/Napoleon/Tokugawa: give in to all demands apart from stupid cash deals or Literature (unless we are confident we can research Music before them).
• HC: N/A.
• Alex: likely target of Napoleon, and less useful trade partner than HC/Kublai. Only hand over common techs.

Re. WFYABTA: okay, and good. I am happy to trade for HBR, as HC will only get Currency elsewhere, as you say. This also lets us build Elephants, if need be.

----

I'll check to see the turn that HC founded Judaism.

 

[Duckweed]

The Sheepish chop went into the ToA, I think, so it would need to be whipped.

There's another riverside forest that you can send a worker immediately.

Huayna can't demand anything for ~9 turns, but Kublai Khan has Aesthetics too.

No, KK does not. We will finish Music in less than 10 turns.

What about cancelling trade agreements? E.g. Tokugawa or Napoleon demand that we cancel our deals (= OBs) with Alex. I suppose I rank the AI as follows:

Why, they won't demand cancelling OB with someone that they are cautious above.

.....

 

[kossin]

A few more issues:

1. Do we want to delay the Phi bulb till next turn when we can spread Buddhism to Dye Hard 1st. Otherwise, Tao will be founded in Dye Hard and we have 10% chance of failure.
   
2. Diplomacy, I'll only yield to tech demand, but not cash demand. What's your opinion?
   
3. Do we want 10g from Toku and HR+50g from HC? I'd say yes since HC could trade CoL to Nappy for Currency, moreover, HR gives us the chance of assaulting to Toku.
   
4. What to do with the Tao missionary? Spread in capital or send it to scout. I'd like to use it immediately and use some HAs to scout later.

1. Sure. The only alternative I can fathom is keeping it for double Edu bulb in case of unlucky GA.

2. Agreed, cash is ours!

3. Yup.

4. Capital. We can get a vision HA/Chariot due to the settled GG to really scout well.

 

[Doshin]

pomthom, do you have an updated test file? It would be appreciated, if so.

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I plan to rework the Settler/Worker order in Golden Sands and Cornish Cow:

Spoiler :

T83: Cornish Cow Worker moves 4S1W of city.
Golden Sands: Library

T84: Cornish Cow Worker moves 1S of Golden Sands
Golden Sands: Library

T85: Cornish Cow Worker moves 1W of Golden Sands. Chop (3/3).
Golden Sands: Settler

T86: whip Settler, to settle on T88 (three Workers in place)

----

This lets me delay the whip in Golden Sands and allow the foodbank to go: 13F ---> 19F ----> 25/28F (build Settler) ---> 25/24F (whip, instant regrowth, +3F overall)

We'll gain commerce in Cornish Cow, because we will continue to work the Cottages until we are at size 5 (stagnate @ 4, build Worker, grow, insta-whip @ 5). We also have a surfeit of Worker turns here if we retain the current Worker (3 turns are spent cottaging, 1 turn to move to a Grass Forest, 2 turns to chop outside the BFC... and then the city is at 9/10 ).

The Missionary will come from Sea Horse. The 20H OF, combined with a chop, will be the fastest way to build a Courthouse in this city.

Anyway, I'd need to test this. kossin, I hope you don't mind my rexing.

Spoiler :

In all seriousness, I do feel confident that a 9F surplus city (at size 2) qualifies as a super city that, with a CH and few Cottages, will be set up in time for our first Golden Age. I hope that's ok with you?

My changes were designed to maximize food and commerce in our preexisting cities.

 

[Duckweed]

I'd keep the build order in both cities and whip the worker and settler immediately. The worker in Cornish Cow could just stay and finish the cottage and do the 2 forest chops to lib next. It's inefficient to move it away. The current worker and whipped worker in golden sand could chop the forest to finish the lib in Golden sands and then road toward the Pig/Wheat site. Very good timing with the settler. With Currency, Col, and enough worker (this ensure that the new city gets the CH the fastest to minimize the cost), the settlement of a new city is the earlier, the better since the food in the new city gives the most snowball effect, of course, at the cost of gold (as I said, ~140g before having CH), however, since we have made the decision and have to pay this fixed amount, then why not take the advantage of those snowball effect from food earlier and get the payback earlier, the gain from the new city is more than the gain from current 2 cities.

Edit: Looking at the save again, whipping settler in Cornish Cow gives the same date of 10th city, so I'm good at your changes of whipping settler in Golden sands.

The missionary for the 10th city can come from the golden sand with the OF from Lib.

T86: whip Settler, to settle on T88 (three Workers in place)

Not sure where are the three workers from, 2 from golden sands and Cornish cow. another one? I would not count the worker from Dye hard or Sea Horse since the workers in that area is tight, especially for MoM chops and possible roading in Nappy/Toku border.

 

[kossin]

Anyway, I'd need to test this. kossin, I hope you don't mind my rexing.

Spoiler :

In all seriousness, I do feel confident that a 9F surplus city (at size 2) qualifies as a super city that, with a CH and few Cottages, will be set up in time for our first Golden Age. I hope that's ok with you?

My changes were designed to maximize food and commerce in our preexisting cities.

It seems I'm alone on that battlefront so I'll just stay quiet about it from now on. Hopefully traderoutes to the other AIs can be unlocked to improve the finances so that the hit is smaller.

Or get the GLH and add cities around inland seas

 

[Duckweed]

It seems I'm alone on that battlefront so I'll just stay quiet about it from now on. Hopefully traderoutes to the other AIs can be unlocked to improve the finances so that the hit is smaller.

Or get the GLH and add cities around inland seas

It seems that you have gotten deep shadow from last SGOTM. Most of our SGOTMs had won because of REXing but not early tech advantage. The key of RExing is to control the expansion pace to get Currency and CoL in time. GLH represents the trade routes income in suitable map, while CH and cottages is always available with food abundance. Remember how we controlled the economy in SGOTM15 while warmongering and spreading the whole world with Hindu.

 

[pomthom]

Updated test game attached.

EDIT: just realized I forgot to gift the Copper away, sorry. Not so sure about my beaker count as well but should more or less good

 

[Doshin]

I'd keep the build order in both cities and whip the worker and settler immediately. The worker in Cornish Cow could just stay and finish the cottage and do the 2 forest chops to lib next. It's inefficient to move it away. The current worker and whipped worker in golden sand could chop the forest to finish the lib in Golden sands and then road toward the Pig/Wheat site. Very good timing with the settler. With Currency, Col, and enough worker (this ensure that the new city gets the CH the fastest to minimize the cost), the settlement of a new city is the earlier, the better since the food in the new city gives the most snowball effect, of course, at the cost of gold (as I said, ~140g before having CH), however, since we have made the decision and have to pay this fixed amount, then why not take the advantage of those snowball effect from food earlier and get the payback earlier, the gain from the new city is more than the gain from current 2 cities.

The city will be settled on T88 whether it is whipped on T84, in Cornish Cow, or T86, in Golden Sands.

There is inefficiency either way: the original micro maximizes Worker turns (two gained) while the revised version allows us to work improved tiles.

Golden Sands has 13/28F:

Spoiler :

My initial numbers were wrong. But I value working the farm for two more turns > gaining two Worker turns, because this increases our food surplus by 33% (3F ---> 4F) and lets the city grow back to size 3 (and then 4, etc.) sooner following a whip:

Turn: GS: Whip Settler GS: Whip Worker
T83: 13/28F 13/28F
T84: 17/28F 13/28F
T85: 21/28F 13/24F
T86: 21/28F 16/24F
T87: 21/24F 19/24F
T88: 24/24F 22/24F
T89: 16/26F 13/26F
T90: 20/26F 17/26F
T91: 24/26F 21/26F
T92: 14/28F 25/26F

Golden Sands is harder to analyze. But by building a Worker here, and by delaying this for 2–3 turns, we work Cottages during that time. edit: to make clear, I wouldn't stagnate on the Worker, but fill the food-bank before whipping. (And possibly grow to size 5 before the whip... –1F +2C).

Bear in mind that, as I said, the Worker by Golden Sands has a "dead" turn where it needs to build a road, because it will Cottage the tile 1NW for 3 turns, move to a Grassland Forest and pre-chop (= 6 turns, total), and then we have 1 "dead" turn before the border pop. So only one turn is "wasted," unless you'd prefer to build a road for a turn on the Iron.

Not sure where are the three workers from, 2 from golden sands and Cornish cow. another one? I would not count the worker from Dye hard or Sea Horse since the workers in that area is tight, especially for MoM chops and possible roading in Nappy/Toku border.

I thought the Dye Hard Worker was obvious, as long as we don't need to road towards Nappy.

Dye Hard has two Workers. We won't steal Calendar for ~7 turns.

One Worker can stay behind to road towards the Stone (= 2 turns) and then clear the Jungle (= 4 turns). Another can go to Wheat/Pigs to chop a Forest and road. After the Forest is chopped, it will return to Dye Hard to build a Plantation.

The alternative would be to leave one Worker in Dye Hard and send another back to Constantinople. Which would you prefer?

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Pig City either needs three Workers to be set up, or we'll need to move two Workers onto a Forest after improving the Pigs:

T88: 0F Pasture 2/4
T89: 3F Pasture 4/4
T90: 9F Move two Workers to Forest
T91: 15F Chop 2/3
T92: 21F Chop 3/3
T93: 5/24F Whip Granary
T94: 11/22F