SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

[kossin]

^^Sounds good, it's what I thought - just checking

Regarding silver site, the economy is better now but it wasn't so good in the last phase. It's worth 2 with a Forge for every city so at some point it'll be worth it for certain.

 

[Doshin]

Yep, I meant Cornish Cow.

Aggressive AI supposedly defend their cities with fewer troops, but attack with larger stacks and like to wage the "Crush" war type. So sniping cities could work. Getting Tokugawa in the war so that we could backstab would make life much much easier, especially if Toku begins to build Elephants.

The Silver site could also provide trade routes to Napoleon around Tokugawa. There would still be a lot of Tundra to road (we'd need to Scout a little more first), but going to war right would currently cost -21 per turn.

The HG presumably can be delayed. It is the equivalent of the Oracle: the longer you wait, the better the freebie, but leave it too late and the AI will snipe it.

 

[Duckweed]

Need a bit time to adjust the worker micro in Const, might be able to play tonight.

 

[Doshin]

Yes, no problem either way. 2-3 turns a day means planning one day, and playing the next.

You are well aware, I am sure, but if you hope to grow Constantinople, this becomes unhealthy at size 12. The Sheep can be hooked up for one more health, but we'll lose four Worker turns to do so.

Edit: Misfit Gypsy Nuts seem to have finished already. We are lagging by a month.

 

[Duckweed]

Yes, no problem either way. 2-3 turns a day means planning one day, and playing the next.

You are well aware, I am sure, but if you hope to grow Constantinople, this becomes unhealthy at size 12. The Sheep can be hooked up for one more health, but we'll lose four Worker turns to do so.

It's 17 with 4 from forests at the moment. I believe we won't need more than 6 forests, so at least 15 with sheep bonus.

Start playing.

 

[Doshin]

Sorry. I meant Case Depart. I keep confusing city names.

:suicide:

 

[Duckweed]

Traded Calendar around, also 50g from Nappy.

Spoiler :

The question is " Do we want a couple of WEs before HAs", we might need it for stack or land defense since Toku might send some mounted units during the war.

Spoiler :

I'll leave the issue and play the rest tomorrow. With extra cash, we should be able to finish CS before T100, 1F in capital is good though, I start to feel that capital grows quite slowly.

Log

Spoiler :

Turn 91, 600 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Thessalonica!
Turn 91, 600 BC: Case Départ has grown to size 11.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Sheepish has grown to size 7.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Sheepish can hurry Market for 3⇴ with 5ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 35 turns.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Sea Horse has grown to size 3.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Napoleon has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 91, 600 BC: You are the worst enemy of Alexander.
Turn 91, 600 BC: The borders of Dye Hard are about to expand.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Kublai Khan will trade Construction
Turn 91, 600 BC: Huayna Capac will trade Construction
Turn 91, 600 BC: Kublai Khan will trade Horse
Turn 91, 600 BC: You have discovered Calendar!
Turn 91, 600 BC: Espionage Mission undertaken successfully!
Turn 91, 600 BC: Upon completing the mission the Spy 1 (Constantinople) has returned safely to Case Départ.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Napoleon has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 91, 600 BC: You are the worst enemy of Alexander.
Turn 91, 600 BC: The borders of Dye Hard are about to expand.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Kublai Khan will trade Construction
Turn 91, 600 BC: Huayna Capac will trade Construction
Turn 91, 600 BC: Kublai Khan will trade Horse
Turn 91, 600 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Constantinople.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Golden Sands will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Constantinople will grow to size 7 on the next turn.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Cornish Cow will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Thessalonica will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Sea Horse will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Dye Hard will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
Turn 91, 600 BC: You have trained a Warrior in Rice Pudding. Work has now begun on a Warrior.
Turn 91, 600 BC: The borders of Dye Hard have expanded!
Turn 91, 600 BC: Huayna Capac has founded Mainz in a distant land.
Turn 91, 600 BC: Tokugawa adopts Organized Religion!

Turn 92, 575 BC: The enemy has been spotted near Thessalonica!
Turn 92, 575 BC: Case Départ can hurry Aqueduct for 3⇴ with 34ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 27 turns.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Golden Sands has grown to size 4.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Constantinople has grown to size 7.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Cornish Cow has grown to size 5.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Thessalonica has grown to size 5.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Sea Horse has grown to size 4.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Sea Horse can hurry Library for 2⇴ with 14ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 36 turns.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Dye Hard has grown to size 2.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Dye Hard can hurry Work Boat for 1⇴ with 7ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 16 turns.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Alexander has no worst enemy.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Alexander will trade Construction
Turn 92, 575 BC: Alexander will trade Sheep
Turn 92, 575 BC: You have discovered Construction!
Turn 92, 575 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Amsterdam.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 30 ℤ for Dye Hard.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Rice Pudding will grow to size 9 on the next turn.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Sheepish will grow to size 8 on the next turn.
Turn 92, 575 BC: Amsterdam will grow to size 2 on the next turn.

Turn 93, 550 BC: Case Départ will become unhealthy on the next turn.
Turn 93, 550 BC: Rice Pudding has grown to size 9.
Turn 93, 550 BC: Sheepish has grown to size 8.
Turn 93, 550 BC: Amsterdam has grown to size 2.
Turn 93, 550 BC: Amsterdam can hurry Granary for 1⇴ with 16ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 10 turns.
Turn 93, 550 BC: The borders of Golden Sands are about to expand.
Turn 93, 550 BC: Kublai Khan will trade Deer
Turn 93, 550 BC: Case Départ will grow to size 12 on the next turn.
Turn 93, 550 BC: Constantinople will grow to size 8 on the next turn.
Turn 93, 550 BC: Sea Horse will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 93, 550 BC: Dye Hard will grow to size 3 on the next turn.

 

[kossin]

Alex is now willing to DoW Toku/Napoleon
But the price tag is too high for now...

 

[Duckweed]

Time to talk about the war plan while the next target is on the table.

We need to capture at least 3 Toku's cities (Aksum, Condar, and Lalibela) before calling for peace.

The major stack of HAs (15~20 units depends on whether Toku has LBs) will go for Aksum->Condar with the help of a revolt (either Aksum or Condar depends on which city has more units). Another stack of mainly veteran axes plus maybe a catapult and a WE goes for Lalibela.

We can expect the SoD being ready in ~15 turns, RP will be responsible for ~10 units and the rest from other cities except capital.

Diplomacy part, we could call Alex to join us after we DOW. Toku has nothing to offer to call allies if he is researching Feudalism. Otherwise we could demand KK for temporary peace.

If everything goes well, we could achieve the goal in 3 turns.

 

[kossin]

Bribing Alex into war after we DoW means we can encounter his SoD [might head for us, or for Alex no way to tell], which in turns makes the war a larger investment (need WEs and some other troops on borders).
There's a good chance that Philo+Music is enough to bribe Alex first I'd say.

 

[Doshin]

A War Elephant for Lalibela is fine. A City Raider II Catapult would also be useful.

We'll need to check the odds against Drill I/CGIII Archers. And Elephants. But a 15–20 unit stack sounds fine. Possibly overkill if we work the diplomacy right.

Our two Woodsman II Axemen are also flexible, and can join the 2–movement stack or Lalibela siege.

Can we use OF from a War Elephant in RP and a chop to build a Stables? It does not matter so much for any War Elephants, but 7XP puts us 1XP away from a promotion. 20% of suicide/risky Horse Archers retreat, so they will be able to heal, and the HArchers that win the 98% battles can then do the same.

We should aim to produce ~1 Horse Archer a turn from Rice Pudding, in any case. A 1-turn Stable break would be fine, but a 2-turn break (or delaying later HArchers) decreases its value.

Diplomacy part is debatable. If we bribe in Alex after we declare, it won't do much good. He is too far away to attack or be attacked. Bribing 6–8 turns before we declare (Music + another?) will be of greater use.

 

[Duckweed]

We might not need to bribe Alex into war. Except KK, Toku can't bribe other AIs on his side since he just don't want to give away techs. We have not seen any sizable stack from our previous scouting. With the speed (being able to attack Aksum in the 2nd turn of Dow and Condar in the 3rd turn) minimize the time for AI to produce units.

It should be fine to finish stable in 1 turn with a forest chop, so a WE and then a catpule next?

We also need to adjust some come city build to HA (Golden sands and Cornish Cow), some cities should be able to produce 2 HAs with 1 whip only. In this case, shall we let the OF from missionary whip to HAs so that we can get 2 HAs with 1 more whip?

Bribing Alex into war after we DoW means we can encounter his SoD [might head for us, or for Alex no way to tell], which in turns makes the war a larger investment (need WEs and some other troops on borders).
There's a good chance that Philo+Music is enough to bribe Alex first I'd say.

I think it's unlikely that Toku is able to send stack toward our border while there's 2 stacks (both should be bigger than the units in Aksum and Lalibela) are menacing his cities.

 

[Doshin]

It should be fine to finish stable in 1 turn with a forest chop, so a WE and then a catpule next?

Sounds good to me. We may well need to chop two Forests to continually build one unit per turn. It should be easy enough to check.

We also need to adjust some come city build to HA (Golden sands and Cornish Cow), some cities should be able to produce 2 HAs with 1 whip only. In this case, shall we let the OF from missionary whip to HAs so that we can get 2 HAs with 1 more whip?

If we are going to attack, it would be better to do so quickly, and we'll have to rely on cities outside of Rice Pudding to build an army.

Fail gold is important, for sure, but there are a lot of wonders available and it is not clear when they will be built. We can put fail gold into these later, when the AI has fewer choices. I am also under the impression that we are not yet ready to start a Golden Age, so cashing in to rush to Civil Service is less pressing than (hopefully) avoiding Longbows.


I think it's unlikely that Toku is able to send stack toward our border while there's 2 stacks (both should be bigger than the units in Aksum and Lalibela) are menacing his cities.

BTW, Vienna now has 307 in a wonder, so it cannot be building the SoZ.

To narrow it down in future turns:

> 300H ≠ SoZ
> 350H ≠ ToA
> 400H ≠ Parthenon
> 450H ≠ Chichen Itza, Shwedagon Paya
> 500H ≠ Pyramids​

 

[Duckweed]

So looks like ToA is the best bet.

The source of units:

1 WE + 1 Catapult from RP + 6~7 axes for Lalibela.

2 HAs each from Cornish Cow, Golden sands, Sea Horse, Thessa, that's 8 already, if we want , we can easily add 1~4 from Sheepish and Const.

~8 HAs from RP.

 

[pomthom]

Yep ToA fail gold is looking good.

Should we use the Woodman Axes to attack cities or to harrass Toku Workers once we declare? I'd vote for the Workers. Maybe keeping the Woody Axes together if Longbows or Shock Axes are around.

EDIT: and yes we absolutely need to capture Gondar to reestablish trade routes after we lose them by DOW
Might be the Mids as well

 

[Duckweed]

We won't lack workers at that time. Toku's empire will be separated after we capture 3 core cities. It's easy to capture his workers after that as long as we don't sign peace, just like how we captured workers from Asoka. Of course we could take the workers if they happens to be nearby.

 

[pomthom]

^^Sounds good, it's what I thought - just checking

Regarding silver site, the economy is better now but it wasn't so good in the last phase.

Things are always not so good before getting better

 

[Duckweed]

I took a quick look at PD's SGOTM18, your settlement was a bit suboptimal. You used 3 cities to claim the capital area and FP tiles where 2 cities could do. Moreover, the area that Atlanta and joker claimed only needs 1 city.

Unless limited room for expansion, I'd settle 1 city for the same resources instead of 2, even that's means a border pop is needed to access great resource. That says: In general, you should settle the least number of cities to claim the same number of resources.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13038363&postcount=217

More examples: How we settled the GLH site in SGOTM16 to claim Deer. How we chose the Sheep site in this game before seeing the sheep.

Another reason was your tech path which prioritized Construction, while we prioritized economical techs (Currency, and then Lit) and academy in this game before going for war and hence could recover much easier.

 

[Duckweed]

Played to T96

HC completed ToA, which fuels our research. In the same time, Alex finally went WHEOOHRN, Nappy should be his target.

Spoiler :

Toku keeps expanding, happy to see.

Spoiler :

We could complete CS with a few more beakers from building research, and 30g beg from HC, Commit?

Spoiler :

Game Log

Spoiler :

Turn 93, 550 BC: The borders of Golden Sands have expanded!
Turn 93, 550 BC: Huayna Capac has completed The Temple of Artemis!

Turn 94, 525 BC: Case Départ has grown to size 12.
Turn 94, 525 BC: Case Départ has become unhealthy.
Turn 94, 525 BC: Case Départ has become unhappy.
Turn 94, 525 BC: Rice Pudding can hurry War Elephant for 1⇴ with 30ℤ overflow, 14ℴ added to the treasury, and +1⇤ for 22 turns.
Turn 94, 525 BC: Golden Sands can hurry Horse Archer for 2⇴ with 18ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 16 turns.
Turn 94, 525 BC: Constantinople has grown to size 8.
Turn 94, 525 BC: Thessalonica has grown to size 4.
Turn 94, 525 BC: Sea Horse has grown to size 5.
Turn 94, 525 BC: Dye Hard has grown to size 3.
Turn 94, 525 BC: Kublai Khan will trade Feudalism
Turn 94, 525 BC: Huayna Capac will trade Feudalism
Turn 94, 525 BC: Kublai Khan will trade Deer
Turn 94, 525 BC: Alexander will trade Sheep
Turn 94, 525 BC: Cornish Cow will grow to size 6 on the next turn.
Turn 94, 525 BC: Rice Pudding can no longer work on The Temple of Artemis. The lost ℤ is converted into 13ℴ!
Turn 94, 525 BC: You have trained a War Elephant in Rice Pudding. Work has now begun on a Catapult.
Turn 94, 525 BC: Sheepish can no longer work on The Temple of Artemis. The lost ℤ is converted into 72ℴ!
Turn 94, 525 BC: You have trained a Worker in Sheepish. Work has now begun on a Market.
Turn 94, 525 BC: Cornish Cow can no longer work on The Temple of Artemis. The lost ℤ is converted into 56ℴ!
Turn 94, 525 BC: Huayna Capac adopts Vassalage!

Turn 95, 500 BC: Case Départ has become healthy.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Case Départ has become happy.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Case Départ can hurry Taoist Monastery for 2⇴ with 29ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 34 turns.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Constantinople can hurry Market for 4⇴ with 1ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 24 turns.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Cornish Cow has grown to size 6.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Cornish Cow can hurry Horse Archer for 2⇴ with 19ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 16 turns.
Turn 95, 500 BC: You are the worst enemy of Alexander.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Kublai Khan will trade Copper, Wine
Turn 95, 500 BC: Alexander won't trade Sheep
Turn 95, 500 BC: Napoleon will trade Sheep
Turn 95, 500 BC: Golden Sands will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Constantinople will grow to size 9 on the next turn.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Thessalonica will grow to size 5 on the next turn.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Dye Hard will grow to size 4 on the next turn.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Bacon Sandwich will grow to size 2 on the next turn.
Turn 95, 500 BC: You have constructed a Aqueduct in Case Départ. Work has now begun on a Taoist Monastery.
Turn 95, 500 BC: You have trained a Catapult in Rice Pudding. Work has now begun on a Horse Archer.
Turn 95, 500 BC: Huayna Capac has founded Ulm in a distant land.

Turn 96, 475 BC: Case Départ has grown to size 11.
Turn 96, 475 BC: Case Départ can hurry Taoist Monastery for 2⇴ with 32ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 33 turns.
Turn 96, 475 BC: Golden Sands has grown to size 5.
Turn 96, 475 BC: Constantinople has grown to size 9.
Turn 96, 475 BC: Thessalonica has grown to size 5.
Turn 96, 475 BC: Thessalonica can hurry Buddhist Missionary for 2⇴ with 26ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 22 turns.
Turn 96, 475 BC: Dye Hard has grown to size 4.
Turn 96, 475 BC: Dye Hard can hurry Lighthouse for 2⇴ with 22ℤ overflow and +1⇤ for 12 turns.
Turn 96, 475 BC: Bacon Sandwich has grown to size 2.
Turn 96, 475 BC: Alexander has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 96, 475 BC: Alexander has no worst enemy.
Turn 96, 475 BC: Alexander will trade Sheep

 

[Doshin]

Re. SGOTM 18:

Spoiler :

One problem was that the capital was very weak. We could have settled closer to the FPs, but decided to put the capital on the Marble. The 5F Wheat surplus was cut to 3F working the pre-improved Gold. Settling three cities let us share the Gold and manage unhappiness. The coastal city was needed to work a Fish and access the minor civ (GLH city).

Next to no Worker steals was poor play. The FPs and Grassland tiles took too long to receive Cottages. The troop movement in the last few turns against GK was also very poor, and lost us several Workers for the midgame.

We went to Currency after Alpha, although I nearly quit in arguing for this. kossin's authority and math eventually prevailed.

---

Anyway, it's ancient history now. Team koshinoza still managed a silver, and to beat a very active Kakumeika team by four turns, in spite of everything.