SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

[Doshin]

MoM, unless we want to prioritize chops which means delaying the cottages on grassland tiles, we can't complete in 5 turns, T105 from my test. We won't have much OF to MoM since they are going to be used for HAs.

The cost of delaying bureaucracy becomes bigger, 20C+6H on T105.

Capital: 1 turn to size 14
Const: size13
RP: size 11
Sheepish: 1 turn to size 11 without whipping HAs
most other cities are size 5~6.

All the pops do not count the extra pop from HG.

All cities will have CHs before T105.

HG will be done on T106

We will have a stack of 16~18 HAs ready to attack on T109, depends on whether we want to whip a HA in Sheepish and DH.

Regarding GP production and whether capital should hire scientists. It would be easier to plan it while we are there. It won't be wrong to grow the GP farms as big as possible for the moment.

Ok, and good. It sounds like you have this thought through.

GP farms will be tricky. Dye Hard is worth investigating. Plains Cottages are ok tiles during a Golden Age, and we can improve/work these until they grow, but the city also has +9F at size 4 (= Rice, Clams, Lake, Dye), and +10 potential (farmed Grassland) at size 5. It will almost certainly be able to produce a Great Person in the late game, if we generate a good number of GP points now (3 * 9) * 12 = 324GP, and then top them off later: (5 * 9) * 12 = 540GP.

Without testing or calculating, I'd guess that Case Depárt will produce the first four–five GP (it has produced two already), Constantinople the sixth, and then the next four–five will come from Case Depart x2, Dye Hard, and Bacon Sandwich.

I doubt the AI cities will provide any Great People for us. Tokugawa's land should be cottaged. We're also not going to capture any wonders in the near future.

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Edit: there is also the question of our planned # of Golden Ages. Five would be the maximum (I include the Taj GA and assume the 5 GP GA is too hard), allowing us to chain from T106 to T167. That requires 9 Great People to launch, so 6 to self-generate, if we assume that we receive the free GArtist, GMerchant, and GScientist.

1 Great Person will be needed for a corp, so we'd need to self-generate 7.
1 Great Person will be needed to bulb Education, so we'd need to self-generate 8.​

We'd need a bit of luck popping the right GP in the capital, so perhaps four Golden Ages is more realistic and if we get lucky we get lucky. Great People after the tenth (1000GP ---> 1200GP) tend to come from multiple Sushi cities in space games, in my experience.

 

[Duckweed]

4GP GA is barely worth for a big well setup empire (30+ cities) and usually for SSV. We can aim for 3 GP GA in this game.

In SGOTM16, we gave up the 4 GP GA due to good luck of producing 4 GSs in a row, however we actually did not lose too much by using those GSs to bub instead of the GA.

 

[Duckweed]

Made some adjustment to produce more HAs, better to be safe than to complain for luck. Also delay the MoM to T106 for more OF to MoM, which is the same as HG.

18 HAs will be ready to attack on T109 (The one from RP could not join the stack in time), could have 2 more if we want to whip DH and BS.

Spoiler :

South part of empire

Spoiler :

North part

Spoiler :

One more thing about Diplomacy: Can I demand Toku something before T98 so that he won't do something sneaky, or won't intend to produce units.

 

[Doshin]

The save looks excellent. If the last RP Horse Archer is too late to join the Aksum stack, is it worthwhile to have a Woodsman II join this, and have the RP Horse Archer join the Lalibela stack? You have a better feel for the numbers.

I have no problem with demanding, as long as you are sure we will attack by T109, and not earlier. There is, e.g., no chance that we would want to attack on T107?

I agree with safety, especially because additional Horse Archers can move to take Toku's last cities, or raze cr** sites like Yeha.

 

[Doshin]

I don't know whether you can get another Warrior to Sea Horse? It will encounter happiness problems soon after T106. If not, perhaps you could queue a Market to whip after the Hanging Gardens, but before the Caste switch.

 

[Duckweed]

It can produce the warrior by itself (20H OF on T105). Moreover, it won't grow too fast since Constantinople will take the Corn away.

Summoning kossin for one more check, I could play some turns tonight.

 

[Doshin]

Summoning kossin for one more check, I could play some turns tonight.

Or shakabrade.

 

[kossin]

Just got home, I'll be a few minutes.

 

[kossin]

Cornish Cow: rather than farming 2 plains, wouldn't it be slightly better to farm the grassland (N of Corn) and mine the tundra Iron? (the latter a 1F4H tile). The market will take forever to pay for itself... unless that's for running Merchant specialists outside Caste System.

As Doshin said, Woodsman Axe to go with stack may be useful.

As an aside... we're nearing the point where new cottages will not mature fast enough to be worth it (I guess we can cut off at 1AD).

 

[Duckweed]

Cornish Cow: rather than farming 2 plains, wouldn't it be slightly better to farm the grassland (N of Corn) and mine the tundra Iron? (the latter a 1F4H tile). The market will take forever to pay for itself... unless that's for running Merchant specialists outside Caste System.

We gain 1F from Corn and save a grassland for cottage. I'm not sure what to produce in this city. This city would be a pretty good commerce city and there's no better building than Market for now.

As Doshin said, Woodsman Axe to go with stack may be useful.

All the axes will be with the WE and catapult as I already mentioned in previous post about war plan. Just did not move any axes and I also deleted some axes before, to better simulate the economy. Edit: Not sure where will the scouting woodman axe in SW arrive. Let's see how's Toku's defense at that time, we still have some turns to adjust.

As an aside... we're nearing the point where new cottages will not mature fast enough to be worth it (I guess we can cut off at 1AD).

I think cottage is still the best improvement as long as the food plus support the fast growth. We will be running GAs for most of the rest game. A farm offers 1F while a cottage offers 2C from start, which is already better than the farm.

 

[Doshin]

Cornish Cow has an ok food surplus, but not great. We will probably end up choosing between a Market and a University here, and a University should be a better build in the long run.

You could put hammers into wonders or Warriors, as an alternative?

Cottages are fine for the immediate future. Villages are still good when Printing Press is researched. We are a long way from the techs that improve Workshops, and do not have the Mids for Rep specialists.

 

[Duckweed]

The question is that whether Market is useful in Cornish Cow. We could run non-deficit 50% slider during 1st GA, however, with the further expansion, the slider is going to be lower for quite a long time before we could build wealth. Therefore, in turns of ROI, market is better than University. Universities will get the priority in 6 best cities to unlock OU.

Besides Capital, Sheepish and Constantinople, Cornish Cow is a good choice, I agree that University exceeds Market. However, again, if we want it , then better to invest with OR bonus now than later. This city won't need more than 1 warrior for long time.

Villages are much better than rep specialists, especially for a city that won't produce a GP.

 

[Duckweed]

A demand from Alex, granted.

Spoiler :

However, Toku traded CoL from HC with Calendar

Spoiler :

Demand 40g or 2gt, and trade Aes for 40g?

Edit: we still have Lit to trade for more cash later, so we get more by demanding 2gp.

 

[Doshin]

2GPT is ok. I'm happy to sell Aesthetics too. The gold may disappear if Toku continues to expand.

Villages are much better than rep specialists, especially for a city that won't produce a GP.

Yes, but Rep specialists are better than Cottages if the Cottages won't have time to mature (kossin's point). But I agree that Cottages are still the best improvement in cities with 6F+ right now, especially given the imminent GA boost.

 

[Duckweed]

With grassland farms (before biology), 3 citizens yield 6B, while 3 citizens working on 3 grassland cottages yield 6C during golden age, which is already better than 6B due to the flexibility of slider. That's why I said cottage is better than farm in my reply to kossin. Villages are far better than rep scientists.

Played a bit more, Alex DOWed, we got a GS! Will continue on tomorrow. Save not uploaded.

 

[kossin]

I'm more eyeing a production economy down the line, which has about the same ETA as cottage maturation at this point; hence more food for more population. Non-rep specialists are good before T50, to control happiness or for GPP, that's about it.

Anyway, ~1AD should be cutoff point for new cottages.

~~~
Your RNG luck is quite fantastic! Or maybe that is the soundjata effect

Did you get a visual on Toku defences? G'night

 

[Doshin]

Good work. Hopefully Alex will make some headway against Napoleon and not get steamrolled, but since he has to attack a hill city first, he probably won't.

A minor point:

Spoiler :

Are you moving 1-movement troops from the unroaded Desert Hill to the Forest? Or stopping the HArchers from ending their turn outside our borders (in the north too)?

Or did that Elephant squash a barbarian?

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GS is good news. In the last SGOTM, I think kossin generated a (bad) Great Merchant at ~3% odds and I then generated a Great Artist at ~4% odds. We ended up bulbing Railroad and Mass Media, IIRC.

 

[kossin]

Hehe, last SGOTM was Murphy's law all over the place

Not sure that's the right image Doshin, can't see the troop movement you're pointing out. ?!?

 

[Doshin]

^^^ 1NW of the tile labelled 'Cott 2/4,' left of the trade screen.

 

[kossin]

Troops were on auto-move in the test game for the shortest path, so I assume it's the same.