It's quite hard now to give a detail plan for GPP production till the end of the game. The only uncertainty is how many GPs could be produced from Constantinople and capital. Giving that our empire is going to output thousands of beakers in the end, 1 ~2 more GPs affect the result at most 1~2 turn. I think the earliest date of MT has more effect on the result.
SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Let's say that we spend 15 turns after this in Caste/Pacifism, and that Case Depart generates the next GP.
It is T113.
Specialist 5 comes from CD.
Case Depart will produce 46GPP with Oxford.
46 * 15 * = 690GP + non-Pacifism/GA turns
= Specialist 5, 9?
----
Constantinople produces ~100GPP with 250/500GP in current GP. This costs -6F, but the city will also generate some GPP from wonders when we are not in Caste/Pacifism.
To generate GP#6 and #8, then it will need 600GP for the next Great Person and 1000? after that.
In any case, 100 * 15 = 1500 GP
= 2 specialists
= Specialists 6, 10?
---
Dye Hard is difficult. It needs to catch up GP and has less food than the other sites. OTOH it won't whip a University. This will need to generate the 700GP Great Person or 800GP.
99GP presently
(4 * 9) * 15 = 540GPP
= Specialist 7? This city will needs to grow and/or starve. Or run GMs outside of a GA.
---
Bacon Sandwich can probably pick a time of its choosing to generate a Great Person. It has 225GP with 45GPP a turn in Caste/Pacifism. 45 * 15 = 675 + 225 = 900GPP.
= Specialist 8?
-----
It seems likely to me that we will be in Caste/Pacifism for far more than 15 turns.
At some point we will capture the Parthenon. Conversely, at some point we lose TGL specialists.
If you want to plan more precisely, it would take time.
If you want to start generating Great People after 1000GP, it becomes harder, especially as we plan to work Cottages/Plains in our National Epic city.
It is T113.
Specialist 5 comes from CD.
Case Depart will produce 46GPP with Oxford.
46 * 15 * = 690GP + non-Pacifism/GA turns
= Specialist 5, 9?
----
Constantinople produces ~100GPP with 250/500GP in current GP. This costs -6F, but the city will also generate some GPP from wonders when we are not in Caste/Pacifism.
To generate GP#6 and #8, then it will need 600GP for the next Great Person and 1000? after that.
In any case, 100 * 15 = 1500 GP
= 2 specialists
= Specialists 6, 10?
---
Dye Hard is difficult. It needs to catch up GP and has less food than the other sites. OTOH it won't whip a University. This will need to generate the 700GP Great Person or 800GP.
99GP presently
(4 * 9) * 15 = 540GPP
= Specialist 7? This city will needs to grow and/or starve. Or run GMs outside of a GA.
---
Bacon Sandwich can probably pick a time of its choosing to generate a Great Person. It has 225GP with 45GPP a turn in Caste/Pacifism. 45 * 15 = 675 + 225 = 900GPP.
= Specialist 8?
-----
It seems likely to me that we will be in Caste/Pacifism for far more than 15 turns.
At some point we will capture the Parthenon. Conversely, at some point we lose TGL specialists.
If you want to plan more precisely, it would take time.
If you want to start generating Great People after 1000GP, it becomes harder, especially as we plan to work Cottages/Plains in our National Epic city.
Yeha is too strong to capture on T113. We'll need ~8-9 units without the Catapult.
I could be wrong, but gut feeling is that earliest Cuirassiers might come from Rep+Caste+Pacifism. Universities and Oxford boost will not make a huge difference if it's delayed as I said before, we have 20+ turns margin vs. an extra GP.
Take a peek for sure. His capital would be the more important city for me, but we did agree to go for easy targets so whatever fits.
I suggested beeline to Biology after Cuirassiers to handle more GPs for instance, I would only look how to get there for now.
Oxford is good but, we'll have cash reserves for ~15 turns, outside GA, capital will produce about ~80b per turn from Oxford, so that's 1200b. Not negligible but weaker than an earlier Great Person ! (And, presumably, extra Great Person)
~~~
As I said, I'm fine to take the current road, I just want to know the team preference and I'll stop giving arguments for this. In the end it's 1~2 turns probably, but that often is the margin of victory for tight games - which this one may turn out to be if TSR is managing their GPP well.
DB looks very bad to me. It has no Granary or Courthouse. It just has 3-pop now, so 2-pop or 1-pop when we capture it. There is just one food source, Cows, and no easy access to fresh water. There are also only 3 BFC Forests, and it has the wrong religion.
I would ignore it.
Edit:
I would ignore it.
Edit:
This is worth considering in greater detail.
6 universities will also give considerable boost to research. With 100% slider, our beakers before the GA is less than 300bpt (273bpt on T106), so the boost from 6 universities and OU are about 50%. If our cash is enough to push toward MT, then an earlier GP won't matter.
We also need to consider how we are going to set-up Tokugawa's territory. We need 3–4 Courthouses, a few Libraries, perhaps we could start chopping into the Taj. This is easier in Slavery/OR, although not necessary. Caste/Pacifism/Representation would just require more chops.
Rep specialists to control happiness and growth. They will grant research whatever the gold reserves also, which is quite comparable.
Approx. commerce outside Golden Age...
Let's say 200C to account for growth and cottage maturation. This is quite generous considering the whipping that's currently on the table.
Universities will grant 50b per turn. With Oxford, ~130.
130*15=1950b, say 2000b.
We have 97 population, so GS is 1500+6*97 = 2082b, already more. Several more REP specialists/merchants will provide 6 yield before multipliers.
GM:
Our capital has 1.6 base profit for AIs.
+25% capital connection
+150% sustained peace
Aachen: +10% population
---
1.6*(1+1.5+0.25+0.1) = 4C
Or... Vienna (ToA)
1.6*(1+1.5+0.25+0.5) = 5C
Gold = 500+200*5 = 1500gold
Current beaker multiplier is ~1.35
GM = 2025b
Summary
Universities+Oxford = 2000b on a good day
GS = 2082b (but limited targets) + specialists research
GM = 2025b + specialists research
Similar results albeit slightly in favour of gpp [not computing extra REP specialists yield... they will cut down on cottage maturation for later but initial trek towards Cuirassiers might be 1~2 turns faster]. Also a lot more work though, so that's why I don't mind if the team picks the other route.
Approx. commerce outside Golden Age...
Code:
Case Depart 70
Sheepish 29
Constantinople 31
Ccow 17
Thessa 16
Shorse 18
Total 181Let's say 200C to account for growth and cottage maturation. This is quite generous considering the whipping that's currently on the table.
Universities will grant 50b per turn. With Oxford, ~130.
130*15=1950b, say 2000b.
We have 97 population, so GS is 1500+6*97 = 2082b, already more. Several more REP specialists/merchants will provide 6 yield before multipliers.
GM:
Our capital has 1.6 base profit for AIs.
+25% capital connection
+150% sustained peace
Aachen: +10% population
---
1.6*(1+1.5+0.25+0.1) = 4C
Or... Vienna (ToA)
1.6*(1+1.5+0.25+0.5) = 5C
Gold = 500+200*5 = 1500gold
Current beaker multiplier is ~1.35
GM = 2025b
Summary
Universities+Oxford = 2000b on a good day
GS = 2082b (but limited targets) + specialists research
GM = 2025b + specialists research
Similar results albeit slightly in favour of gpp [not computing extra REP specialists yield... they will cut down on cottage maturation for later but initial trek towards Cuirassiers might be 1~2 turns faster]. Also a lot more work though, so that's why I don't mind if the team picks the other route.
@ kossin
As you analyzed, whipping universities and then OU as soon as possible substantially increased the bpt and hence speeds up the research to MT. While neither an extra GS nor a GM (when our cash in bank is enough to support 100% slider till MT) will help.
It's a trade off between extra beakers vs extra GPPs. The extra beakers speeds up the date to MT, while whether the extra GPPs will turn into an extra GP is uncertain (more than 1K GPPs in late stage). Capital does not lose much by switching out of CS+Pacifism since its GPPs come from wonders. BS and DH lose nothing since they can only produce 1 GP. Therefore, the only loss of GPPs come from Constantinople.
As you analyzed, whipping universities and then OU as soon as possible substantially increased the bpt and hence speeds up the research to MT. While neither an extra GS nor a GM (when our cash in bank is enough to support 100% slider till MT) will help.
It's a trade off between extra beakers vs extra GPPs. The extra beakers speeds up the date to MT, while whether the extra GPPs will turn into an extra GP is uncertain (more than 1K GPPs in late stage). Capital does not lose much by switching out of CS+Pacifism since its GPPs come from wonders. BS and DH lose nothing since they can only produce 1 GP. Therefore, the only loss of GPPs come from Constantinople.
When would be the date of Biology and how many turns left to the end game? I really don't see any other potential cities (captured cities with Cuirassier war) to produce a GP. Our current cities won't since they are cottaged.
@kossin
The benefits of Oxford continue beyond your analysis. Even if an additional GS or GM makes slightly better use of the next 15 turns, Oxford is delayed much further, e.g.
If the choice is between whipping Universities now or running Great People now, I would prefer to whip Universities. We are running into happiness problems, and need infrastructure (Courthouses) in the newly captured cities. Delaying Universities by ~20 loses the value of Oxford entirely.
I don't think Constantinople will produce three GMs / GSs, and this is the only Great Person farm that loses pop by whipping a University. It requires a heavy commitment to have cities 'loop round' and produce multiple GPP after the fifth, especially outside of the National Epic site. It is not the total
across the empire that matters, but the location and timing in individual cities. It seems more realistic to me that Aksum would produce the 1200GP great person, rather than one of our current GP farms.
Biology seems like it will come too late to me, given the curtailed nature of this game. Moreover, beelining Scientific Method early costs two Scientists in the National Epic center, and the Parthenon in Vienna (if applicable).
The benefits of Oxford continue beyond your analysis. Even if an additional GS or GM makes slightly better use of the next 15 turns, Oxford is delayed much further, e.g.
Spoiler :
If the choice is between whipping Universities now or running Great People now, I would prefer to whip Universities. We are running into happiness problems, and need infrastructure (Courthouses) in the newly captured cities. Delaying Universities by ~20 loses the value of Oxford entirely.
I don't think Constantinople will produce three GMs / GSs, and this is the only Great Person farm that loses pop by whipping a University. It requires a heavy commitment to have cities 'loop round' and produce multiple GPP after the fifth, especially outside of the National Epic site. It is not the total
across the empire that matters, but the location and timing in individual cities. It seems more realistic to me that Aksum would produce the 1200GP great person, rather than one of our current GP farms.Biology seems like it will come too late to me, given the curtailed nature of this game. Moreover, beelining Scientific Method early costs two Scientists in the National Epic center, and the Parthenon in Vienna (if applicable).
I'm thinking about stop producing Units from RP for a few turn and switch to infrastructures. Our current troops are enough to take AA and then Yeha (which is almost impossible even with the reinforcements fro RP, better to wait the troops after taking AA).
I didn't suggest it, because it is insignificant compared to bigger debates, but a Monastery is worthwhile given the Town/Lakes and settled Great Generals in Rep (presently +1BPT @ 0%).
What other infrastructure is needed? A Forge is fine once we have Metal Casting. A Market and University are costly.
You might consider putting together a small Elepult stack as well, if it will speed our initial declaration against Kublai.
pomthom
Drive & Reverb
I'm also for the Slavery switch. It will offer an immediate flexibility that I think compensates for the possible medium term losses you mentioned
