SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

[kossin]

I wouldn't count on Parthenon too much, we do have to attack HC but only for Mainz... probably raze it at the last moment, resettle and rush buy/chop workboat.

Getting the 1,000 guy is almost trivial with a limited plan. I'm curious whether we could pull off 1,200 however. The next techs to grab (economy) are Printing Press (20C/turn) and Banking for Mercantilism (61~121 b+g/turn under Representation at the moment but lose ~35C/t so 25~85 yield/turn). With the extra gpp, we can see if it's possible to push Constantinople a bit further.

For instance, Constantinople getting 600+800 gps = 1,400

Spoiler :

Total to get: 1,400-current = 1,100
Passive: Mercantilism+MoM+TGW = 7 (14 or 21)... over 20 turns this should account for at least 300
Total from specialists = 1,100 - 300 = 800

Assuming we run the 15 turns of Pacifism suggested by Doshin, and 10 without it (this gets us to T145), then average multiplier is (15*3+10*2)/25 = 2.6

Total gpp required by specialists: 800/2.6 = 308 -> 309
309/3 = 103 forced specialist turns

103 specialist turns/25 = ~4 average per turn

Capital gets 700+900 or 1000

Dye Hard gets 800 or 1200 (we might need some farms...)
Bacon Sandwich gets 1200 or 800

~~~

I think it's reasonable to get 1,200 not too far from T150. If we simply let the last GP be a Great Merchant for Sushi, then it can just be pushed back for when we need it.

 

[Doshin]

The last GP should be a Great Merchant, I am sure of that much.

The capital could generate two Great People. One question that occured to me: how hard can/should we push for this?

Astronomy and Physics will exclude Biology bulbs, and I'm struggling to see a good use for a GArtist (= culture bomb the barb city so that it leaves revolt?) or GEngineer (rush... something?).

The initial outline suggests the city will have 2/800GPP on T130. In a perfect world with perfect RNG, we'd pop a GScientist in time to bulb Scientific Method. So we should make sure that we begin to run Scientists early enough here to achieve this. Otherwise, we would do better to save 200 elsewhere.

 

[kossin]

Well that's one issue. I was looking for a post I had written to reference... turns out it's the one I erased

Anyway:

Great Scientist:

Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
Laser (BTS)
The Wheel
Alphabet (BTS)
Philosophy
Chemistry
Fission
Fusion
Optics
Paper
Astronomy

We can also bulb into Chemistry, so GS use is pretty decent; although less flexible than GM, it is nonetheless instantaneous vs. the 7~8 turns hike.

 

[Duckweed]

BTW, if we switch civics on T120 (now, i.e. to Caste/Pacifism) and again on T125 (i.e. to Police State/Slavery), our Golden Age ends on T130... the first turn that we could switch back.

So, if we plan to stay in Police State/Slavery for ~5 turns, we will need to chain our GAs via the Taj.

I mean, if we are in PSS from T125–30, then sure, we may decide to spend another turn or two in these civics... but by T133–5, we should be back in Representation, so we would only delay the Taj by 2–3 turns. And doing that would cost us one free GA turn in the process.

PS to T130 should be enough since that allows 2~3 whips to produce 20+ Curs and most cities are almost exhausted.

 

[Doshin]

Well that's one issue. I was looking for a post I had written to reference... turns out it's the one I erased

Anyway:


We can also bulb into Chemistry, so GS use is pretty decent; although less flexible than GM, it is nonetheless instantaneous vs. the 7~8 turns hike.

The GS bulbs come down to Chemistry and Scientific Method.

On T130, Case Départ is at 2/800GP. In a GA with Pacifism, it produces 56GPP.

If we run one Scientist while in Pacifism, this goes to 68GPP. With two, 80GPP. So ten turns in Pacifism = ~T140, for a likely bulb.

Let's say:

(6) Case Départ = GA #1
(7) Constantinople = GA #2.a
(*) Great Merchant Economics = GA #3​

If we have perfect RNG and spawn three different Great People types, then...

(8.a) Constantinople = GM/GScientist?​

If both Case Départ and Constantinople produce Great Scientists, then...

(8.b.) Constantinople = GA #2.b​

Leaving us with a lot of GP in:

(9) Dye Hard = Great Merchant
(10) Case Départ = Great Scientist > Great Engineer >> Great Artist
(11) Bacon Sandwich = GM for Sushi​

Perhaps (9) and (10) should be reversed. The utility of a GScientist is lost after Scientific Method, and a GMerchant after we capture the last AI capital.

Dye Hard has the smallest food surplus of all our farms, and only 153GP stored.

 

[Doshin]

Don't know how to estimate exactly but I think there's a good chance we'll have MT in 5 turns rather than 6 so we won't have another chance to whip before Cuirs
[*]HA before MT: I think Doshin mentioned "mass" whipping/chopping HAs just before MT, why? We might be in Slavery only if we reah MT in 6

If, e.g., we have 4/50H in a Horse Archer and 2–pop whip in a Forge city, this generates 96/100H, so it is not difficult to build a Cuirassier on the following turn. The whipped hammers pass from the HArcher into the new unit.

If we cannot switch into PS/Slavery until the exact turn that we research MT, then we just need to make sure that any cities that intend to whip have some hammers invested in a Horse Archer:

2–pop Whip

Forge city = 60 * 1.5 = 96/100H. The Horse Archer build needs 5H in advance.
Non-Forge = 60 * 1.25 = 75/100H. The Horse Archer needs 26H in advance.
​

This is not an issue in cities that will chop their first Cuirassier.

 

[kossin]

Seems good, Doshin. The exact order will come down to how we handle civics and what the spreadsheet will give us.

As I said, we might consider adding a few farms to Dye Hard... or Bacon Sandwich if we come up short in planning.

The GP cities should avoid most of the Cuirassier whipping I believe, well for sure the 2 smaller cities.

 

[pomthom]

Thanks for the input guys and good work Doshin, once again.

I am tired but my head is much straighter tonight. I'll post a draft PPP in 2/3 hours and we can start paying tomorrow onwards.

 

[Doshin]

Perhaps you were going to do this anyway, but any plans can be done in broad outlines at this point. Identify city/Worker/unit movement priorities, and so on, but play using your general understanding of the game.

I guess the two areas that need to be carefully controlled (before Cuirassiers) are (1) GPP, and (2) the Taj Mahal. Regarding the latter, the total in Aksum is very tight. 8 Forests chopped with a Forge AND in Organized Religion = 600/700H, and outside of OR is 540/700H. Duckweed is also in favor of a civic switch on T130:

PS to T130 should be enough since that allows 2~3 whips to produce 20+ Curs and most cities are almost exhausted.

for which we shall need to be in a Golden Age:

T120: run Caste System + Pacifism
T125: run Police State + Slavery (@all: will we run Theocracy here?)
T130: last GA ends. We can now switch civics again, ideally to: Representation + Caste System + Pacifism​

Getting stuck in Police State/Slavery/not-Pacifism will be detrimental to GP plans and the finish date.

EDIT: @all we need to plan coastal cities too, right? I don't think the stickied plan will work, because of the 3 tile Fort bridge by Addis Ababa. Or am I missing something?

 

[pomthom]

Mini-PPP T120-T124 draft

General comments

- I'll assume we reach MT on T125: if I'm not mistaken we need (1950-750) + 3250/1.2 = 2708 to finish MT, that's ~780 BPT average to have for 5 next turns which seems easy enough
- The Taj can be completed on T130 with 8 OR forests, gaining the extra turn of GA but at the expense of delaying the FP > T132...
- ... alternatively the FP can be built on T126 with 2 OR forests, leaving 6 forests and Cuir whip OF to finish Taj a bit later (I favor this in the end)
- I'd like to time a chop to RP on the turn before MT so we get our first Cuir on T125
- I'm in favor of whipping Forge in Cornish now so that it is ready to pump out Cuirs and has a bit of time to regrow before then. No other whips before T125​

Questions

- What to build in Rice Pudding for 2 turns after Uni? Market? BM? Spy?
- Is it worth preparing to invest hammers in HAs just before MT in cities that almost have their Forge or do we prefer finishing the Forge? (I'd say finish the Forges first)
- I am unsure about when/how to re-attack Toku mainly because it will reset the war weariness. Not before we're back in Slavery I think - which basically means we'd have Cuirs also. What do you think?
- Is sending the Sentry HA enough for SW exploration? I'd say yes while moving cautiously​

---------------------


Civics

T120: switch to Caste System + Pacifism
T125: switch to Police State + Slavery + Organized Religion (not for Theocracy here because we need to bank hamers in FP+Taj+some infra)
T130: end of GA (unless we choose to rush Taj), switch to Representation + Caste System + Pacifism


GPP

Doshin's posts will be my guideline, but I haven't checked exactly how the micro will work yet


Workers

Mostly chopping. The 4 Workers around Aksum will chop 8 forests in 8 turns once the cottage and farm are finished (all 8 will fall in OR).

Any particular suggestions? When should we start building forts? We need to test the galley think.


City builds (approximate)

Spoiler :

Turn Case Depart Rice Pudding Golden Sands Sheepish Constantinople Cornish Cow Thessalonica Sea Horse Dye Hard Bacon Sandwich Aksum Gondar Lalibela Adulis Addis Ababa
120 Forge University Fail Forge Forge Whip Forge Forge Forge Market Market FP Forge Forge Galley
121 Forge University Fail Forge Forge OF Market Forge Forge Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler
122 Forge ? Fail Market Market Market Forge Forge Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler
123 Forge ? Fail Fail Market Market Forge Forge Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler Culture
124 HA Elephant (+chop) HA HA HA HA Forge Forge Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler CH

 

[Duckweed]

I guess the two areas that need to be carefully controlled (before Cuirassiers) are (1) GPP, and (2) the Taj Mahal. Regarding the latter, the total in Aksum is very tight. 8 Forests chopped with a Forge AND in Organized Religion = 600/700H, and outside of OR is 540/700H. Duckweed is also in favor of a civic switch on T130:

Forests are better to be chopped with OR, it's easy to time the chop on T125. If we want to chain the GA, then FB has to be pushed behind further. I'm not very sure whether which way is better.

for which we shall need to be in a Golden Age:

T120: run Caste System + Pacifism
T125: run Police State + Slavery (@all: will we run Theocracy here?)

Where's the tech?

T130: last GA ends. We can now switch civics again, ideally to: Representation + Caste System + Pacifism​

Getting stuck in Police State/Slavery/not-Pacifism will be detrimental to GP plans and the finish date.

EDIT: @all we need to plan coastal cities too, right? I don't think the stickied plan will work, because of the 3 tile Fort bridge by Addis Ababa. Or am I missing something?

I did not put the sign accurately in the live save. The starting fort should be the grassland 2N of Adulis, and another fort north of Dye Hard should be 1N of the Stone.

 

[Duckweed]

Mini-PPP T120-T124 draft

General comments

- I'll assume we reach MT on T125: if I'm not mistaken we need (1950-750) + 3250/1.2 = 2708 to finish MT, that's ~780 BPT average to have for 5 next turns which seems easy enough

I think you are right. We could complete MT 2~3 turns earlier if we know our beakers have increased so fast.

- The Taj can be completed on T130 with 8 OR forests, gaining the extra turn of GA but at the expense of delaying the FP > T132...

- ... alternatively the FP can be built on T126 with 2 OR forests, leaving 6 forests and Cuir whip OF to finish Taj a bit later (I favor this in the end)

I also slightly favors this.

- I'd like to time a chop to RP on the turn before MT so we get our first Cuir on T125

Sound good.

- I'm in favor of whipping Forge in Cornish now so that it is ready to pump out Cuirs and has a bit of time to regrow before then. No other whips before T125​

I'm fine with the whips, then you have to bank the hammers by building wealth.

Questions

- What to build in Rice Pudding for 2 turns after Uni? Market? BM? Spy?

BM, I guess.

- Is it worth preparing to invest hammers in HAs just before MT in cities that almost have their Forge or do we prefer finishing the Forge? (I'd say finish the Forges first)

You could do the same thing as in Cornish Cow, whip now and then bank the hammers, you got many Cuis on T126.

- I am unsure about when/how to re-attack Toku mainly because it will reset the war weariness. Not before we're back in Slavery I think - which basically means we'd have Cuirs also. What do you think?

We might try to steal worker if possible.

- Is sending the Sentry HA enough for SW exploration? I'd say yes while moving cautiously​

That's why I left it there, but forgot to ask for opinion.


Civics

T120: switch to Caste System + Pacifism
T125: switch to Police State + Slavery + Organized Religion (not for Theocracy here because we need to bank hamers in FP+Taj+some infra)
T130: end of GA (unless we choose to rush Taj), switch to Representation + Caste System + Pacifism

If we don't complete Taj, we can't do the free switch.

GPP

Doshin's posts will be my guideline, but I haven't checked exactly how the micro will work yet


Workers

Mostly chopping. The 4 Workers around Aksum will chop 8 forests in 8 turns once the cottage and farm are finished (all 8 will fall in OR).

Any particular suggestions? When should we start building forts? We need to test the galley think.


City builds (approximate)

Spoiler :

Turn Case Depart Rice Pudding Golden Sands Sheepish Constantinople Cornish Cow Thessalonica Sea Horse Dye Hard Bacon Sandwich Aksum Gondar Lalibela Adulis Addis Ababa
120 Forge University Fail Forge Forge Whip Forge Forge Forge Market Market FP Forge Forge Galley
121 Forge University Fail Forge Forge OF Market Forge Forge Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler
122 Forge ? Fail Market Market Market Forge Forge Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler
123 Forge ? Fail Fail Market Market Forge Forge Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler Culture
124 HA Elephant (+chop) HA HA HA HA Forge Forge Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler CH

.......

 

[kossin]

EDIT: @all we need to plan coastal cities too, right? I don't think the stickied plan will work, because of the 3 tile Fort bridge by Addis Ababa. Or am I missing something?

I'm away for a few days; we can use core cities and forts to get the workboats to the North.

BUT, we need cities there for
1) galleys
2) having the seafood inside our culture

If anything, I think the fort chaining is a huge effort (take a moment to count all the forts in the snow that are needed) and we might need more resources than just rush-buying the required workboats. There are a lot of ice tiles meaning some cities just to cross in order for core cities to send workboats.

 

[Folket]

EDIT: @all we need to plan coastal cities too, right? I don't think the stickied plan will work, because of the 3 tile Fort bridge by Addis Ababa. Or am I missing something?

At Addis Ababa it is 5 tiles between water. Way more then 2.

As you can try out in the test game water units can only move on tiles that are next to water.

So the plan is to change to US and buy stuff? I do expect that it would delay our victory some.

 

[Duckweed]

^Nice tests.

About city build. I think we should invest some hammers (to allow 2 pop whip on T125) to HAs. We can whip 2 pops in BS and DH since they still have time to grow back. Same as Golden sands. Other cities can whip forges now, as long as the OF and build don't complete a WE, we can let it continue, otherwise, switch to wealth to bank the hammers. The workers in north could start to road toward the barbarian cities north of Golden sans. We should send some Cuis to capture this cities 1st and try to settle the north coastal city as soon as possible. It should be able to produce a galleys by itself if settled early enough.

I have a feeling that military progress is more likely to be the bottleneck than beakers.

 

[Doshin]

Are you sure that War Elephant builds are switched to Cuirassiers?

Anyway, Cuirassiers need the following:

2–pop Whip

Forge city = 60 * 1.5 = 96/100H. The Horse Archer build needs 5H in advance.
Non-Forge = 60 * 1.25 = 75/100H. The Horse Archer needs 26H in advance.
​

I'm fine with whipping Forges in certain cities (e.g. Cornish Cow, Thessalonica). Perhaps list these before you do so?

If we whip the Forge and then switch back to a Horse Archer, and place 5H into this before completing the Forge and building Wealth, we can either 2–pop whip (60H) a Cuirassier on T105 or chop 2 Forests (60H). Perhaps even both (= Cuirassier on T106 and another on T107).

If you complete the Forge first, all the OF will go into the HArcher and ruin the whip. It will also not receive the Police State boost, which is trivial in the case of 5H, but significant for 30–60H of OF.

Any cities that will whip or chop a Cuirassier in Police State should therefore have 5H (Forge city) or 26H (no Forge) in a Horse Archer going from T104–5.

 

[Doshin]

Mini-PPP T120-T124 draft

General comments

- I'll assume we reach MT on T125: if I'm not mistaken we need (1950-750) + 3250/1.2 = 2708 to finish MT, that's ~780 BPT average to have for 5 next turns which seems easy enough
- The Taj can be completed on T130 with 8 OR forests, gaining the extra turn of GA but at the expense of delaying the FP > T132...
- ... alternatively the FP can be built on T126 with 2 OR forests, leaving 6 forests and Cuir whip OF to finish Taj a bit later (I favor this in the end)

I strongly favor an early Taj. My thoughts/some points:

1. We receive a free GA turn. Even if a delayed GA means that we work more tiles, it won't bridge the gap (we would need to double our population, and tiles in new cities are less valuable than in our capital/University cities).
2. I value mid-game GA turns very heavily. If we are working a Cottage, on T120, we receive +1C, or a 100% commerce boost. If we work that same tile, a Village, on T150, we receive +1C on a 4C tile, or a 20% boost. So, although later GA turns contribute more overall because we work more tiles, the relative impact of earlier turns is more significant.
3. We need to generate our Great People early. Great Scientists are useless after Chemistry and Scientific Method. This isn't a space game, where we can bulb along the Astronomy/Physics/Electricity line. The capital will need ~10 turns in Pacifism to generate a Great Person by ~T140. Great Merchants are also useless ~12 turns before the game ends, apart from the final Sushi guy. This is especially true if we decide to capture all the AI capitals.
   [*]If we don't start a GA on T130 via the Taj, when will we switch out of Police State?[*]The Forbidden Palace will contribute less than an extra GA turn, especially during those turns that we are no longer in Organized Religion. Moreover, population will be kept low in the Japanese territory due to whipping infrastructure and then Cuirassiers. To be sure, the FP would save , but maintenance will only skyrocket once we begin to capture Spanish cities.

- I'd like to time a chop to RP on the turn before MT so we get our first Cuir on T125
- I'm in favor of whipping Forge in Cornish now so that it is ready to pump out Cuirs and has a bit of time to regrow before then. No other whips before T125​

Questions

- What to build in Rice Pudding for 2 turns after Uni? Market? BM? Spy?

Make sure you grow Rice Pudding this turn (change a Grassland Hill to the unworked Plains Farm in Case Depart) if it won't slow down the University. As for the build, probably a Market. I am not sure when we will next be in Organized Religion AND ignoring units in Rice Pudding.

It would be nice to have a Market ready to whip or chop when unhappiness is about to strike.

- Is it worth preparing to invest hammers in HAs just before MT in cities that almost have their Forge or do we prefer finishing the Forge? (I'd say finish the Forges first)

See my last post.

- I am unsure about when/how to re-attack Toku mainly because it will reset the war weariness. Not before we're back in Slavery I think - which basically means we'd have Cuirs also. What do you think?

It would be good to steal 2+ Workers. 120H will exceed the unhappy citizens. How bad was war weariness, Duckweed?

Keep Horse Archers in this area until they are needed to boost the initial Cuirassier stack. I think you know how threatening Aggressive AI cities works, right?

I'd prefer to avoid being at war with Tokugawa and Kublai simultaneously. Kublai is supplying us with Wine, so our happiness will take a further hit.

- Is sending the Sentry HA enough for SW exploration? I'd say yes while moving cautiously​

Yes.


---------------------


Civics

T120: switch to Caste System + Pacifism
T125: switch to Police State + Slavery + Organized Religion (not for Theocracy here because we need to bank hamers in FP+Taj+some infra)
T130: end of GA (unless we choose to rush Taj), switch to Representation + Caste System + Pacifism

T130 switch is contingent upon the GA.


GPP

Doshin's posts will be my guideline, but I haven't checked exactly how the micro will work yet

Yes, in Dye Hard and Bacon Sandwich especially they are approximate. I may prefer not to starve BS, just stagnate instead.
Workers

Mostly chopping. The 4 Workers around Aksum will chop 8 forests in 8 turns once the cottage and farm are finished (all 8 will fall in OR).

Any particular suggestions? When should we start building forts? We need to test the galley think.

We do not need new, non-riverside Cottages in cities with several Lake tiles . With the Colossus, Lake tiles yield +2C more than a Cottage for 10 turns, +1C for 20 turns, and it is only after this that the Cottage commerce begins to catch up with that of the Lake.

A Printing Press Village offers 5C in a GA versus a 4C Colossus/GA Lake. The Colossus/GA Lake will provide +40C for the initial 30 turns, at which point the Village yield catches up 1CPT. It would need 70 turns to turn a profit.


City builds (approximate)

Spoiler :

Turn Case Depart Rice Pudding Golden Sands Sheepish Constantinople Cornish Cow Thessalonica Sea Horse Dye Hard Bacon Sandwich Aksum Gondar Lalibela Adulis Addis Ababa
120 Forge University Fail Forge Forge Whip Forge Forge Forge Market Market FP Forge Forge Galley
121 Forge University Fail Forge Forge OF Market Forge Forge Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler
122 Forge ? Fail Market Market Market Forge Forge Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler
123 Forge ? Fail Fail Market Market Forge Forge Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler Culture
124 HA Elephant (+chop) HA HA HA HA Forge Forge Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler CH

What will we trade for Machinery? Music + Paper to HC?

We can't give too much to Kublai, otherwise he can bribe other AI. We will need Machinery to extort Kublai's next big tech (Guilds or Engineering, probably) after the war.

If Alex introduces a "Declare War on the Infidels" motion, do you want to say "no" or "never!" ?

In terms of wonders, the Colossus will provide a nice boost to commerce. For happiness, Stonehenge is worth +1 in most cities.

Should we build a Taoist Monastery > Forge in the capital? The former takes two turns and will contribute ~10BPT. The latter takes four-five turns and contributes ~5HPT. I think I'd prefer the Monastery, because we are going to run the slider for the next 7–8 turns.

 

[Duckweed]

I strongly favor an early Taj. My thoughts/some points:

We receive a free GA turn. Even if a delayed GA means that we work more tiles, it won't bridge the gap (we would need to double our population, and tiles in new cities are less valuable than in our capital/University cities).

The later GA will offer more than 1 turn of more GA now. It's not only the yield of 1 turn of more citizens, but a few turns (depends on how many turns we are going to delay) yield from more citizens. Moreover, there's one important advantage of delaying GA, -- flexibility. One of the major advantage of GA comes from free civic switch. The later 3rd GA gives us more flexibility to react to various situations.

I value mid-game GA turns very heavily. If we are working a Cottage, on T120, we receive +1C, or a 100% commerce boost. If we work that same tile, a Village, on T150, we receive +1C on a 4C tile, or a 20% boost. So, although later GA turns contribute more overall because we work more tiles, the relative impact of earlier turns is more significant.

This comparison is misguiding. It only makes sense of counting the boost to total beakers and how many turns are those beakers could speedup important techs. For the moment, none, since only the date of MT has significant impact on the result.

We need to generate our Great People early. Great Scientists are useless after Chemistry and Scientific Method. This isn't a space game, where we can bulb along the Astronomy/Physics/Electricity line. The capital will need ~10 turns in Pacifism to generate a Great Person by ~T140. Great Merchants are also useless ~12 turns before the game ends, apart from the final Sushi guy. This is especially true if we decide to capture all the AI capitals.

The turns of GA are there as long as we are not too late to waste. The time of researching SM would almost be the end of the game.

If we don't start a GA on T130 via the Taj, when will we switch out of Police State?

Maybe ~T135.

The Forbidden Palace will contribute less than an extra GA turn, especially during those turns that we are no longer in Organized Religion. Moreover, population will be kept low in the Japanese territory due to whipping infrastructure and then Cuirassiers. To be sure, the FP would save , but maintenance will only skyrocket once we begin to capture Spanish cities.



What will we trade for Machinery? Music + Paper to HC?

We can't give too much to Kublai, otherwise he can bribe other AI. We will need Machinery to extort Kublai's next big tech (Guilds or Engineering, probably) after the war.

Will Music be enough for KK to bribe HC? Otherwise, it's fine to trade Machinery from KK, we need to bribe him to CS+Pacifism on T125.

If Alex introduces a "Declare War on the Infidels" motion, do you want to say "no" or "never!" ?

NEVER of course, the only city gets affected is AA.

In terms of wonders, the Colossus will provide a nice boost to commerce. For happiness, Stonehenge is worth +1 in most cities.

Should we build a Taoist Monastery > Forge in the capital? The former takes two turns and will contribute ~10BPT. The latter takes four-five turns and contributes ~5HPT. I think I'd prefer the Monastery, because we are going to run the slider for the next 7–8 turns.

There's also the consideration of Cuis from capital.

I have a feeling that military progress is more likely to be the bottleneck than beakers.

So I favor hammers more.

Edit: BTW, about US's power spike, is it from Cuis?

 

[Doshin]

We will need to settle the northern Fish (edit: Crabs? West of the Whale) site ~T135, or else spend some late turns in Universal Suffrage.

The current Fort stickies should be removed. The plan could only work by gifting Adulis to Tokugawa before we found the Fish Island:

Spoiler :

A Galley would need to be in Adulis, and we'd have to check that it would be teleported 2N5E.

There is a good chance the Galley will be teleported west and, since we will need ~80 Worker turns to build the necessary Forts, I think I'd just prefer to settle the northern Fish/Crabs city earlier.

Another problem is that Forts need to be in friendly territory to be accessed, so all the NE Ice tiles will need our culture (or that of an AI with OBs).

The later GA will offer more than 1 turn of more GA now. It's not only the yield of 1 turn of more citizens, but a few turns (depends on how many turns we are going to delay) yield from more citizens. Moreover, there's one important advantage of delaying GA, -- flexibility. One of the major advantage of GA comes from free civic switch. The later 3rd GA gives us more flexibility to react to various situations.

There are lots of short- and long-term economic techs. Printing Press will add 30-40CPT. Banking will add ~100C per turn in Representation (~20 cities * 6 = 120, minus one foreign trade route). Emancipation would double Cottage growth, Corporation offer +1 trade route per city.

The total yield of extra citizens (delaying the Taj by 5 turns) would mean that we will need to have as many new citizens in the last five turns of the final GA (T155-T159) as we would have had in the final "free" turn of a GA started on T155. That will not happen.

The flexibility argument for civic switches is fair enough. OTOH, reaching Democracy sooner is another source of flexibility.

There's also the consideration of Cuis from capital.

So I favor hammers more.

Forge first adds 5HPT and takes 4 turns to build. After that, the Monastery takes 2 turns to build. We gain 10H in those two turns. Invert this, and the Monastery (finished in two turns) contributes 40B while we build a forge (finished in 4 turns).

40 > 10 for me.

----

Yes, I'd guess US are building Cuirassiers. It is too late for Trebuchets, I think, and Knights + Spies takes a lot of work (they have a small team and fewer posts than us).

They also rushed Asoka early, so it makes sense that they decided to hunker down and research to Cuirassiers after.

 

[pomthom]

Mini-PPP T120-T124 final draft v1

General comments

- I'll whip Forges in CC, Thess and SH switch to HA, complete Forge and bank hammers on wealth like suggested. Not 100% sure about SH since whip anger is already heavy there (although whipping Forge is "happy neutral" because of +1) and it means whipping 3 GL cotts
- I can't prepare a Cuir whip in BS and DH since I'll be running max scientists and therefore will be nowhere near 25H in HA
- I favor Forge in Case Depart because I prefer switching to HA/Cuirs after Forge rather than Monastery at this point because of sooner Cuirs
- Uni in Rice pudding will actually be quite hard to complete in 2 turns without OR bonus. I prefer building it in 3 turns, with some OF to bank for 1 turn (and dump it all in the first HA/Cuir) - btw I can't time a chop in RP for T124 like I wanted
- I wouldn't trade Paper to HC just yet (or anyone actually) because with bad RNG he can go straight to Edu/Lib after that (which would be a set back for us). Keeping monopoly on Paper keeps him more the 2 techs away​

Still unsure

- Taj. Doshin is for building it during current GA by delaying FP, Duckweed is for delaying Taj and give up the extra turn bug. I was for one, then the other, and now I don't know - in any case I don't think this has to be decided before we are back in OR T125
- Machinery: do you still think we can trade Paper with risk of unlucky early Lib?​

Finishing to gather thoughts for troops and GPP and will be ready to play in ~1hour.

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Civics

T120: switch to Caste System + Pacifism
T125: switch to Police State + Slavery + Organized Religion


GPP

Review in progress...


Workers

Mostly chopping.



City builds (approximate - update)

Spoiler :

Turn Case Depart Rice Pudding Golden Sands Sheepish Constantinople Cornish Cow Thessalonica Sea Horse Dye Hard Bacon Sandwich Aksum Gondar Lalibela Adulis Addis Ababa
120 Forge University Fail Forge Forge Whip Forge, HA Whip Forge, HA Whip Forge, HA Market Market FP Forge Forge Galley
121 Forge University Fail Forge Forge Complete Forge Complete Forge Complete Forge Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler
122 Forge University Fail Market Market Wealth Wealth Wealth Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler
123 Forge Wealth Fail HA Market Wealth Wealth Wealth Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler Culture
124 HA HA HA Market HA Wealth Wealth Wealth Market Market FP Forge Forge Settler CH

Troops

Sentry HA explores SW
Review in progress...