SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

Doshin · Apr 23, 2014

Every time I play, barbs...

Spoiler :

Do you value the Spy Mission > Fish?

Spoiler :

If the Fish is pillaged, we have -1F in the capital.

I can deposit the Spy in the city. We have 50/50 odds if Kublai attacks. Otherwise, we will either need to chop or whip another WB.

Duckweed · Apr 23, 2014

Spy mission 1st.

The whale city is not in a hurry, it needs to wait for worker chops to produce galley.

Doshin · Apr 23, 2014

Should we heal these three Cuirassiers with the Super Medic (currently in Madrid), or push on towards Santiago?

Spoiler :

Stacks:

Spoiler :

Duckweed · Apr 23, 2014

Heal in place if the forces are enough to capture the city.

Doshin · Apr 23, 2014

Santiago:

Spoiler :

Peace:

Spoiler :

We can't grab the Workers or Settlers. I've captured 6-8 since I started. I grabbed the two 2SW of Zaragosa.

Yes to peace? The only reason I hesitate is that Kublai's Settler may mean he tries to settle the Copper/Fish spot.

I am happy with one Cuirassier lost for three cities.

Our Fish was pillaged.

Duckweed · Apr 23, 2014

Yes, peace.

Excellent battle results, but a bit poor city raider.

Good night.

Doshin · Apr 23, 2014

Freaking barbs:

Spoiler :

I'm done for the night. Uploading now.

Spoiler :

kossin · Apr 24, 2014

Dropping by in between document revisions...

Not too sure about these 2 Market builds. Happiness is not an issue and the slider will remain high for most of the remainder of the game.
For instance... (rounding down for favourable comparison toward Market)
Cornish Cow: 41H left -> 7 turns of 0% slider to pay for the Market, 9 turns if we build wealth instead
Thessalonica: 58H left -> 10 turns... 13 turns with wealth instead

Very good progress! We'll have around ~35% of land after cities come out of revolt and get first border pop.

For a matter of speed to grab land, the later cities we capture should be razed and resettled with fresh settlers. But that is a matter to start considering in 10~15 turns. And of course, fillers.

With Vienna out of the question, trade missions just need to get to the highest pop city from the AI. (no harbors to take into account). Given that Bursa is size 13 and close, then it's an easy target.

From earlier...
GM:
Our capital has 1.7 base profit for AIs.
+25% capital connection
+150% sustained peace
Bursa: +15% population
---
1.7*(1+1.5+0.25+0.15) = 4C (4.93)

Gold = 500+200*4 = 1300gold

If we wait until Case Départ grows to 18 before running the mission, we get 200 extra gold. [8~9 turns from now]
GM takes 3 turns from BS to Bursa, incoming in 4... so just idle 1 or 2 turns before running the mission.

kossin · Apr 24, 2014

FWIW, these are the remaining technologies:

Code:

Optics		975
Guilds		1625
Banking		1137
Constitution	734
Liberalism	2275
Economics	2275
Democracy	4550
Corporation	2600
Chemistry	2925
Sci Method	3900
Biology		5850
Medicine	7312

Total: 36,158

Assuming Lib>Medicine: 28,846
Remove 2xGS bulbs: 24,586
Factor in 20% discount: 20,488

Provided we can keep the slider high (trade missions 3,000 gold + current stash 1565 + ~200 trades + city captures ~1500 = ~6000 is good for 15 turns without building wealth) then...
At current pace... 20 turns to complete research. [T158]

Assuming we extort Guilds: 19 turns [T157]

With more research emphasis we can go even lower. It seems most energy should be spent on optimizing the war and land capture. (workers can try to optimize road networks so that troops always move at least 1 tile to the west etc.)

Like I said earlier, T160 should be the easy goal

Duckweed · Apr 24, 2014

kossin said:
Not too sure about these 2 Market builds. Happiness is not an issue and the slider will remain high for most of the remainder of the game.
For instance... (rounding down for favourable comparison toward Market)
Cornish Cow: 41H left -> 7 turns of 0% slider to pay for the Market, 9 turns if we build wealth instead
Thessalonica: 58H left -> 10 turns... 13 turns with wealth instead

Over size 10, we should expect 2 unhappiness from WW, so happiness is going to be an issue when they grows big, unless we want to whip more. Moreover, we should considere the possibility of spreading corporation, which means cash is still important after completing the tech tree, both for rush-buying and the huge maintenance fee.

Very good progress! We'll have around ~35% of land after cities come out of revolt and get first border pop.

For a matter of speed to grab land, the later cities we capture should be razed and resettled with fresh settlers. But that is a matter to start considering in 10~15 turns. And of course, fillers.

As I see, Conquest victory is more likely a better choice.

With Vienna out of the question, trade missions just need to get to the highest pop city from the AI. (no harbors to take into account). Given that Bursa is size 13 and close, then it's an easy target.

From earlier...
GM:
Our capital has 1.7 base profit for AIs.
+25% capital connection
+150% sustained peace
Bursa: +15% population
---
1.7*(1+1.5+0.25+0.15) = 4C (4.93)

Gold = 500+200*4 = 1300gold

If we wait until Case Départ grows to 18 before running the mission, we get 200 extra gold. [8~9 turns from now]
GM takes 3 turns from BS to Bursa, incoming in 4... so just idle 1 or 2 turns before running the mission.
Sound good.

kossin said:
FWIW, these are the remaining technologies:

Code:

Optics 975 Guilds 1625 Banking 1137 Constitution 734 Liberalism 2275 Economics 2275 Democracy 4550 Corporation 2600 Chemistry 2925 Sci Method 3900 Biology 5850 Medicine 7312

Total: 36,158

Assuming Lib>Medicine: 28,846
Remove 2xGS bulbs: 24,586
Factor in 20% discount: 20,488

Provided we can keep the slider high (trade missions 3,000 gold + current stash 1565 + ~200 trades + city captures ~1500 = ~6000 is good for 15 turns without building wealth) then...
At current pace... 20 turns to complete research. [T158]

Assuming we extort Guilds: 19 turns [T157]

With more research emphasis we can go even lower. It seems most energy should be spent on optimizing the war and land capture. (workers can try to optimize road networks so that troops always move at least 1 tile to the west etc.)

Like I said earlier, T160 should be the easy goal

If there's no 2nd GA, then your estimation of cash and beaker output sound right. (Edit: In fact, we don't have that many GMs and GSs, Currently 2GPs in stock, 4 more to produce and 1 more from Economy, we need to burn 3 for the last GA and 1 for Corporation, leave 3 for trade and bulb, this also assumes that Constantinople and capital won't produce a GA) The maintenance fee is going to increase with more crappy sites settled to claim the seafood resources. Therefore we do need to build wealth in a lots of cities to be able to keep the slider.

This game is a tight balance between beaker and military race. If we need to spread ~~religion~~ corporation, then we should focus more on economy and just keep warring with 1 AI at a time. Otherwise we need to whip harder to assemble a 2nd legion so that we can attack Alex and Nappy in the same time.

pomthom · Apr 24, 2014

Good work Doshin! Our Score is finally shooting back in the right direction

Sorry about the Go To Cuirassiers, I couldn't be bothered to move all these produced Cuirs to the front 1 movement at a time and forgot to cancel the orders before handing over... :blush:

Duckweed · Apr 24, 2014

pomthom said:
Good work Doshin! Our Score is finally shooting back in the right direction

Sometimes score on the screen does not mean much, infrastructures, workers, and GPs are huge hidden score. Don't you see that our culture and power are better?

I'm confident that our military progress should be on the top, the questionable thing is the tech position.

Doshin · Apr 24, 2014

pomthom said:
Good work Doshin! Our Score is finally shooting back in the right direction

Sorry about the Go To Cuirassiers, I couldn't be bothered to move all these produced Cuirs to the front 1 movement at a time and forgot to cancel the orders before handing over...

Thanks, and don't worry about the Go To Cuirassiers. I am simply cursed with bad barb luck. :cry:

We will need to raze the barb city with units due to be shipped in the Galley. The Whale city isn't urgent. It just needs to be timed with the Fort builds (...15 turns on the Ice :crazyeye:

).

----

I'd like the happiness from the Markets, and the ability to run 2 more Merchant Specialists in the final few turns is of some use (or, +25% gold for any massed Merchants in Caste). Thessalonica is more debatable, but this has a Forest remaining that I figure we can chop using a Tokugawa Worker.

----

I'll post a brief plan later. War logistics (units, Workers) are the most important areas, now that the GP plan is set. It's nice to have Engineering at long last. The GG's journey to the front has felt ridiculously slow.

4 Cuirassiers will be ready to attack Tokugawa on T140, before we have any real unhappiness from HC. This could form the core of a Nappy stack, if I begin to funnel new Cuirassiers from RP in this direction.

I've started building Cuirassiers in several marginal cities, assuming that these can be whipped or receive chops before we build Wealth. I'll look again tonight.

kossin said:
If we wait until Case Départ grows to 18 before running the mission, we get 200 extra gold. [8~9 turns from now]
GM takes 3 turns from BS to Bursa, incoming in 4... so just idle 1 or 2 turns before running the mission.

Nice idea. However, I think we will be forced to choose between 200G, and an earlier GP in Case Départ:

Spoiler :

We need to run 23 specialists before T147 to spawn a GP before the 4th GA.

Folket · Apr 24, 2014

Do we really need to keep any city without a Sid resource?

Duckweed · Apr 24, 2014

Folket said:
Do we really need to keep any city without a Sid resource?

For the moment, yes to keep since they (including most of HC's cities) all have enough time to contribute.

About Alex and Nappy's cities, most of them can be razed.

kossin · Apr 24, 2014

We will certainly build wealth. My calculations are most usually conservative to allow room for error; in this case assuming we don't build wealth I figured we'd have just about enough cash to do it.

Domination is probably faster than Conquest because any new city can cover 15~21 tiles within 2 turns of settling. Just need a ton of settlers to do it and logistics

Let's complete Democracy first and then we can decide.

@Doshin
Ok, I didn't keep track of GPP plan since you've been handling it very well.

In that case, if an AI city grows to 14, trade mission should go there for the extra 200 gold.

soundjata · Apr 24, 2014

I'm online at last :woohoo:

I'd like to prepare and play after Doshin but my time is limited so it'll take a while to get a good grasp on the plan.

We've got 13 days until the deadline and we are 20 turns away from home according to Kossin ;D

I should prepare a 10 turns plan over the weekend and play from Monday till Wednesday.

7 days will then remain for polishing.

Can someone underline the main objectives before I try to look at the details?
- Tech plan will be clarified after Democracy I guess
- GP plan is well under control by Doshin they say.
- War plan is kill everyone on sight no hassle

- Settling plan / boat shenanigans I'm in doubt :confused:

- Civics: is this clear for the remainder of the current golden age? (I think I've read some debate in the last few pages :lol:

)
- Worker activities: I guess winter-sports mainly (aka road and fort on ice).
Are there any important improvement left?
Keep BFC forests for now?
- Diplomacy / trading. Is there anything we wish the AIs do for us? Beg for peace? / Bribe into war? Or is this already irrelevant? Should we declare on someone sooner so as to attack a stack in the open?
- City build: CH>granary(if food special exists)>wealth it seems.
- Anything else of importance I have overlooked?

Sorry for the many questions I need to be coached. Hard.

About the hidden objective:

Spoiler :

Doshin · Apr 24, 2014

(not ignoring soundjata, but concentrating on playing

)

Duckweed said:
War logistics with HC

Spoiler :

We Should be able to capture Santiago on T138, with 1~2 turns of healing and waiting for reinforcement, we are able to DOW HC on T141, with ~30 healthy Cuis to start. Other Cuis that cannot arrive in time should rally on the south to attack Mainz.

The date of capturing would be

T143: Vienna with Parth
T144: Augsburg
T145: Aachen

T141 seems conservative to me. Would you change this estimate to T140 now?

We could attack on T139, but the southern stack/fork will have to delay and heal. Since we need to preserve troops for Alex/Nappy, I think I'd prefer not to push so hard.

We could also send a distinct 4-5 unit stack to the Plains Hill 2E of Nuremberg. Nuremberg only had 1 Longbow defender on T137, so we could capture this on the same turn that we take Vienna. I think I am against this, though, because HC could reinforce from two other cities.

2 Workers to go with the northern stack (road 1NE of Aachen) and 2 Workers with the Mainz stack (road 1SE of Nuremberg). Any others?

Duckweed · Apr 24, 2014

How many healthy Cuis that you can field with T140 attack. In my original plan, I also count the attack of Prague with the 10 Cuis to Augsburg.

Spy has to go to Nuremberg.

Duckweed · Apr 24, 2014

Some comments on the save

Yeha: resume granary and let the forest goes to Lalibela
Salam: Culture bug to CH, then just build wealth
Toledo: CH
Adulis: WB->Settler

The worker 1E of Toledo goes to improve the wheat in Muricia.

There's no hurry of chopping forests, let's wait until the mysterious condition is uncovered.

SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

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Deity

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Drive & Reverb

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everything

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